RIPbudgies

Finnie you have done a marvelous job on that little post of yours. I think you are grasping the YF genetics quite well. I will just comment where is is needed.

I just find it strange that what ever it was acted so quickly and the stewards were on tha ball to act so fast. Who knows what effect it may have had on the people there too as they would have been breathing the same air.

On loan for the day you mean ? Yeah. The worst part about not having the birds I use to have is I can only bring three birds on Sunday and there are all single factor GF's. But they are all at least three different colours.

Well Kaz my dearest you don't drink AND you have a much better head for genetics than I .... but yes, I can see our brave lecturers being driven to drink ... I will endeavor to provide "quality" alcohol so the hang over isn't too severe! Me, not drink ??!! :rofl: This is not true. I just dont drink and drive. There is a difference I am a VODKA girl when I drink :hug: I must say I agree with Kaz. I don't drink and drive. My license is my job so it is very much in need. I will have a drop or two but will spread it out. What makes you think we havn't already been driven to drink. Hey Kaz any chance of possibly getting some YF's off Libby on the way through?

Oh Renee you forgot the Dilute series of alleles. They have and still cause confusion.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics...untry-show.html http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/pe...ow-1821557.html

The thing about wrens though is that in breeding condition the males change colours. In WA we have the splendid wren and in breeding condition it is almost entirely blue but non breeding it is very much like the hen.

:rofl: :rofl:

Sounds like a scrub wren but I would have to consult my books to be sure.

Firstly the bird is a Greywing. Nice body colour and dark grey markings. Lovely bird.On the face of it it looks like a double factor Goldenface but what does not convinve me there is that the photo is shot under incandesant light which tends to make yellows appear darker than they are. I do see that little bit of suffusion. Although it is there faintly due to the Greywing factor I do see yellow through the wings. So I would say your bird be combination of a Yellowface Mutant I and Goldenface. I just don't see enough of the bright yellow indicative of the Goldenface variety to show me it is a pure Goldenface. okay, cool. So greywing causes the yellow in the wings to be harder to see. And a Goldenface/Goldenface has a darker yellow mask than a Godenface/Yellowface Mutant I, which would make me think that Yellowface MutantI/Yellowface MutantI might be even a little bit lighter. Oh, Oh, Oh, wait a minute! Yellow Mutant 1 DF makes a white-face bird, I forgot! So, yeah, definitely lighter. :fear Dare I be a pain in the butt and ask if there is an order of dominance or co-dominance among these? :fear :hug: Yes Finnie you can be a pain in the butt and ask questions. After all the only stupid question is the one you don't ask. Firstly Green, the Yellow/Golden-faces and Blues form what is called a multiple allele. In simple terms that means the gene that is required to produce the yellow (Psittacine) coloured feathers has mutated several times and therefore there is now several versions (alleles) of this gene. As with all multiple alleles there is an order of dominance and it is as follows. Yellowfaces were always thought of as Blue birds with yellow added but this thinking must be discontinued. They are Green birds with varying degrees of reduced yellow pigmentation. Green dominant over Goldenface over Yellowface Mutant II over Yellowface Mutant I over Blue. This does not affect the single and double factor versions but they do come into play when breeding composites of the yellow faced birds. I must disagree with using the terms type 1 and type 2. This is used to designate the origin of the dark factor. Sometimes you may come across this: 1. Dark Green / Blue type I or 2. Dark Green / Blue type II. What this means is the no 1 recieved its dark factor from an Olive parent and is linked with Green. No 2 recieved its dark factor from a Mauve parent and is linked with Blue. Depending on how these birds are breed it will change the percentages of dark factor birds in both Green and Blue. If you ever want to breed Violets you need to look into this as you well end up breeding lots of Violet Dark Greens when you are trying to breed Violet Cobalts (visual violet).

No I have not seen you one the slops but I do remember you saying something about holding up the bar at the nationals. Is that right???? My memory at the moment is on the fritz. Too much yellow on the brain. :fear Good pickup :hug: This violet baby and others were bred from these two.............I also got some dark dark grey YF babies from this paring and some olives. One of the dark grey YF babies turned olive greenish after a moult. BBC Member Libby has some of this original stock as I sold them all to her.All the birds produced from those birds would have been single factor Goldenfaces. Some of them would have been composites. The ones like the violet pictured would have been the composites and the ones that moulted out suffused would have been the single factor Goldenfaces.I am going to have to contact Libby and see if she has any left of these birds.

Firstly the bird is a Greywing. Nice body colour and dark grey markings. Lovely bird.On the face of it it looks like a double factor Goldenface but what does not convinve me there is that the photo is shot under incandesant light which tends to make yellows appear darker than they are. I do see that little bit of suffusion. Although it is there faintly due to the Greywing factor I do see yellow through the wings. So I would say your bird be combination of a Yellowface Mutant I and Goldenface. I just don't see enough of the bright yellow indicative of the Goldenface variety to show me it is a pure Goldenface.

My jottings are in green.

As long as Renee doesnt cook :rofl: Oh I don't know, some people prefer scorched snags and torched steaks combined with limp lettuce and squishy tomatoes - at least you know you'll be getting good grog! okay, back on topic.I will forget the term Aussie YF Mutant II and from now on in my mind refer to them as SF Golden Faces. I am sure it has been said elsewhere, but what is the Visual difference between a SF and DF Yellow Face (is it the suffusion?) and WHAT happens if you breed YF to GF, visually and genetically? gb is :bliss: ing :bliss: ing :bliss: ing but feels discussion will be over fine with burnt scortched lol as i am usto this salad squashed or not grog will make :celebrate: anything look good lol as for yf and gf ren dont even do this as its just a mess to work out what you have in end but birds are pretty Keep :bliss: ing GB. Don't know about Kaz's alchol tolerance but nubbs can certainly hit the slops. Renee defiantely likes a drop or two and me, well dare I say I have been caught dancing on the back of a one tunna in the afternoon at an ag show once or twice. :celebrate:

Well put Dave. Just to add. In science when working out expectations it is generally taken over a large number of indivuals i.e 100 or 1,000. It is an average over those totals. Thinking of it as an egg by egg basis for most breeders is one of the best ways to approach it.

See what happens when you write stuff and hit submit reply and suddenly your post is out of date. Kaz if you want it at your place no worries. Renee you will need to bring some birds for us to look at. I will still come over and help you choose which birds to take. I will get my books together and bring them as they contain some great pics. Is there anybody else on this forum who also wishes to be in this discussion?

'Prominant Breeder' yes well, some of them have a lot to answer for. Problem is not necessarily these breeders. Desicions to rearrange rules ultimately come from the floor. If members either through apathy or ignorance allow the passing of these changes it is them that then have to live with it. If members don't like something don't pass it. Go away, think about it, do your homework, discuss with others the ramifications a decision will have. At the tail end of my last foray into the world of show budgies the judges were dicussing this very problem (which is what they see it as). Besides myself who was judge in the late 90's there was only one other judge who specialised in the Goldenface. For many reasons both my ex and myself quit as judges, it was just not worth the hassle at the time. Goldenfaces are not a problem per se. It is the ignorance and lack of knowledge dessemination that keeps this a so called problem. WA's move to segregate the single and double factor forms have done nothing to ensure the GF survival. In order to breed and therefore show the double factor form which is the one they want to see you need to have the single factor form in abundance in the aviary. It is the single factor form that needs to be continually upgraded and then occasionally pair two singal factors together to produce that double factor bird. By not allowing the single factor bird in the same class as the other YF's it ensures they will not survive. People get rid of them and by doing so are also getting rid of the potential to breed double factor birds. Seriously WA needs to get their s%#t together. There has always been a minority running this state and I see it is still so. Problem is this minority are still getting it wrong. Result is what Renee expereienced at the show. The fallout will most likely be that Renee will give these birds away as it will be in the too hard basket for a number of reason's. Renee admits her genetic knowledge is lacking, that's fine, we as a group can help her there. The clubs should be helping to keep this variety alive, but they don't. It just gets sweep under the rug. The Rare Budgerigar Club of WA......what is it doing to help breeders of this variety? Nothing that I can see. I have been informed by a couple of members they don't even have lectures and at the only meeting I attended this was indeed true. So who is out there teaching genetics, variety recognition? Renee your place is good for me for Sunday. I'll speak to my boss about getting somebody else to take the alarm calls. I can always do my afternoon patrols early. Kaz, Gina are you up for Renee's place.

You are right Renee. You wish is my command :fear

The photo is not really good enough to say, sorry. Are you sure that the parents were both grey spangles. Could one of them have been a mauve GF spangle. Sometimes single factor GF Mauves are mistaken for greys. What colour was this bird as a baby?

The reason I have taken the wait and see approach is simple, it is my way of saying "whatever!" I will repeat myself, I thought it was a Dark Green Normal but then I was approached separately on the day by 2 Open breeders who were convinced that She was a Aussie YF. As one of them actually intentionally breeds the blighters I believed what I was told. In addition someone recently took home what I thought was a Normal Green but they were convinced that it was a Golden Face ... So I will put my hand up and say "Yes, I find this subject confusing and do not think I can identify these birds easily". And when you are told that they are a Non Standard Variety you tend to think that breeding them is a bit iffy 'cause you are always encouraged to breed Standard Varieties. Renee all I can say is that if one of these people breeds them intentionally and then tells you a UBC Dark Green is a GF is an idiot. A UBC GF as nubbs already informed you does not show suffusion as a baby. They appear just the same as a double factor GF does. To the person who took home a Normal Green thinking it was a GF. Feel sorry for them. They have probably believed the rubbish that they tried to feed you. Ask them down the track how they when breeding with it. Renee if you want to learn more about GF I am happy to teach you. That goes for others who wish to know. I plan at some time to get a bunch of us together at a BBQ for example and look at this topic. I have a white board in which we can doodle on. Let me know if you would be interested. I can also come down to your place and look at any birds you are not sure about what they are.

Daryl, whilst I agree the article is brilliant it will not clear this issue up. It has been posted here and other forums many times yet the problem still persists to this day as this thread testifies. Also the article is beyond most people. You need to have a fairly good grasp of genetics. It also helps to know a little of feather structure and how it can affect what we see. The most important thing I feel one must do when reading this article is to keep a fresh persepctive and rid ones mind about what you have been fed over the years. Goldenface is my specialist variety. I was breeding them for twenty years. I was at first fed a lot of information on these birds...some good, some not so good. Having an inquiring scientific type brain I was able to make sense of all I was told and I also did my research which led me to other breeders like Ken Gray (UK), Gordon Davis (USA) and a few in Australia too. I had a 100 plus books in my budgie collection some of which are extremely difficult to find but they do help find some missing pieces to the puzzle. One also, and I repeat myself here again, must look at the show standard as just that a standard. In any showing arena there is always a breed standard. It describes what we would like to see, not neccessarily what is correct or what was normal. Remember humans are the greatest manipulators. Yellowfaces have had many ups and downs on the show bench, mostly due to a complete ignornace of the variety. Top breeders and judges don't like it when their egos are smashed cause some upstart comes along and tells them they are wrong. Renee has encountered a real problem. This is the same problem faced by myself back in the early 80's. So what has changed.....NOTHING. I benched a lovely Dark Green hen UBC and was told it was a Goldenface. When I tried to explain to them (judges/show manager) that they were the ones who were wrong I got told what would I know having only bred budgies for a couple of years. Length of time spent in the hobby, grade elevations obtained, awards won and other acheivements does not mean you know your stuff. I know of a few so called top breeders in this state (WA) that have been breeding, judging, showmangering and stewarding that don't know s%#t about genetics or variety recognition, yet there are a few beginners who dare I say it, have more knowledge in these areas than they.

Well you are a legend for taking the time to explain it- Thank You! In all honesty I got lost 1/2 way through the 3rd paragraph when you are explaining the outcomes.. but no matter, just a case of reading and re-reading it till the penny drops. But I really like that you explained the dominance sequence of that allele - I WILL remember that! But my big question is, What happens when you pair up the Aussie Mutant II with a Single Factor or even Double Factor YF???? Excuse the frustion here but.....how many times must it be written on this forum and others exactly what nubbs as written above. I for one have written it some many times I am now just fed up with repeating myself. I'll give you a tip right now. The majority of judges in the country are damn useless when it comes to variety recognition. Yellowfaces have and no doubt will go on to confuse people because the old ideas and misconceptions are still out there. Aussie Mutant II please explain Renee by what you mean here. There is no such thing. The term "Mutant" is used with the other two Yellowface varieties. The aussie one is just referred to as Goldenface in either single or double factor form.

You must have missed this question ?Alder x Kobilanski mix, The Violet Pied hen is a Kobilanski bird and the cock is the son of my original Alder Aus Mutant II bird, he looks Green Normal but maybe he isn't really.When I grabbed the UBC on Sunday I thought it was a Normal Dark Green but then 2 separate people approached me and said SHE was a YF Aussie Mutant II. Your UBC is a Normal Dark Green no more no less. The two people who approached you and said she (?) was a YF Aussie Mutant II. Well I don't know who there are nor do I care cause quite frankly they don't know what they are talking about. You must have missed this question ?Alder x Kobilanski mix, The Violet Pied hen is a Kobilanski bird and the cock is the son of my original Alder Aus Mutant II bird, he looks Green Normal but maybe he isn't really.When I grabbed the UBC on Sunday I thought it was a Normal Dark Green but then 2 separate people approached me and said SHE was a YF Aussie Mutant II. Rubbish! As a UBC, Aussie YF's (even mutant 2) look to be yellow faced blue and it's not until they moult out that they show that strong yellow suffusion in their body colour. Your girl had not even come anywhere near breaking cap yet!!!! She is definitely a dark green NOT a YF blue. Just because a dark green shows some blue on rump and vent area DOES NOT meant it's a freaking YF. THIS is what happens when stupid judges put in stupid rules about a variety such as the Aussie yf having to be put into the NSV/NSC class. It goes completely pear shaped and people see Aussie YF lurking in every bloody variety!!!!!!! It's a damn YF why not just penalise it for heavy suffusion like every other state in Australia (Gina finishes her little rant!!!!!).Move over nubbs I am gonna join you in your rant. I agree will all you have said here.