Do You Breed French Moult?

[**KAZ** 0]

Just a side note: Dehydrated chicks will often drop their feathers and appear to have French moult, when in fact they don't.

 

Very, very true. And this is why poor feeder parent to chicks relationships often show chicks losing all their flights in a stress moult type of thing only to grow them back again once they start feeding themselves in the kindie cage. And why only one or two in a nest will be affected only to recover a few weeks later

 

I hadn't thought of dehydration .... I'll move the drinkers in the kindie cage so all the chicks can access them.

 

This "dehydration" generally occurs as parents are tailing off their feedings to the chicks to encourage them to leave the nest and eat for themselves. Not at kindie cage stage as a rule. Happens between that stage where they are fully well fed by parents and learning to eat for themselves.

Edited January 25, 2009 by KAZ

[GenericBlue 0]

okay so i am just very lucky to never of had french molt then and mabe me being very picky has helped this

i take every bird i buy and look it over from tip to tail

in my hand this way i can also asess how heavy the bird is or if it is undernorished

well not everybird but most give or take the exeption here and their

but pet shops or store brought birds i do do this first thing i do is look for feather placement and any abnormalitys like thin feathers acrossed the wing

so on

feet toes bumb cere and beack eyes and sometimes even feel their bone plate and look for yellow colouring where they hold egg before its layed (in hens)

 

well i guess i shall be more careful and will look on the forum for the subject and read up thanks saloir

got to go bro tell me get off

[renee 0]

okay so i am just very lucky to never of had french molt then and mabe me being very picky has helped this

i take every bird i buy and look it over from tip to tail

in my hand this way i can also asess how heavy the bird is or if it is undernorished

well not everybird but most give or take the exeption here and their

but pet shops or store brought birds i do do this first thing i do is look for feather placement and any abnormalitys like thin feathers acrossed the wing

so on

feet toes bumb cere and beack eyes and sometimes even feel their bone plate and look for yellow colouring where they hold egg before its layed (in hens)

 

well i guess i shall be more careful and will look on the forum for the subject and read up thanks saloir

got to go bro tell me get off

 

Although I bought this bird from a Pet Shop I knew the breeder and where he bought most of his birds from so I recognised French Moult could be a factor. However, as SW correctly pointed out FM is a virus with no cure and to the best of my knowledge FM survivors don't pass it on so I took a 'safe' risk with this bird.

 

But I don't think I'll be taking any further risks in the future and I will be cleaning my breeding cabinets more frequently this year.

 

You live and learn!

[Daz 0]

Just a side note: Dehydrated chicks will often drop their feathers and appear to have French moult, when in fact they don't.

 

Very, very true. And this is why poor feeder parent to chicks relationships often show chicks losing all their flights in a stress moult type of thing only to grow them back again once they start feeding themselves in the kindie cage. And why only one or two in a nest will be affected only to recover a few weeks later :rofl:

 

 

you can get french moult for pairing double buff to double buff to

 

 

False

[Guest DrNat]

Since we are all so *** bent on not breeding animals with defects, why don't we apply some of those principles to our own species? Or is that a little too close to home?

[renee 0]

Since we are all so *** bent on not breeding animals with defects, why don't we apply some of those principles to our own species? Or is that a little too close to home?

 

Not following you Dr Nat, maybe you could elaborate?

[JimmyBanks 0]

I think Dr Nat is saying that maybe we shouldn't breed French moult birds because it is a defect...

[renee 0]

I think Dr Nat is saying that maybe we shouldn't breed French moult birds because it is a defect...

 

I don't think so. FM is not genetic and nobody sets out to have it disrupt your breeding season.

[Sailorwolf 0]

Since we are all so *** bent on not breeding animals with defects, why don't we apply some of those principles to our own species? Or is that a little too close to home?

 

Unfortunately DrNat, while this would create a slightly healthier human species. It is unethical. Pretty much every person wants to have children and they aren't going to let a defect prevent them from doing so.

Human's luckily are very outbred compared to our average pet and so genetic problems don't occur as often.

Think about this. If you had a defect, lets say one as simple as short sightedness, would you not have children because of it?

That sort of idea is very similar to the eugenics program of Germany, better known for the production of the Aryan "race".

 

 

Times are good nowadays because children with parents with known genetic diseases can be tested earlier and something done about it. This also prevents some children being born with serious defects. So in a sense things are being done about it, but in an ethical way.

Edited January 27, 2009 by Sailorwolf

[JimmyBanks 0]

I took "our own species" to mean our own species of pets that we keep... maybe he did mean our own species though...

[Sailorwolf 0]

I read it as humans

[Guest DrNat]

Don't presume to know what anyone else thinks. Even then you might not get it.

You don't have to agree with what anyone thinks anyway, make up your own mind. That's the point.

 

As I said previously, I believe french moult is a virus. I breed with healthy unaffected survivors.

 

I also take every step to care for any sick birds until they recover in so far as is possible, but I don't usually breed with birds that have visible signs of having been affected by the virus, unless there is a specific need to.

 

Why is eugenics unethical? Read your history books, egypt, greece, rome, arranged marriages, we are all a product of eugenics. We even practice it ourselves with our birds. Whether you consider it ethical or not is a matter of personal opinion. If you don't think it ethical for humans, why do it with birds? Who gets to decide what is right or wrong, ethical or unethical anyway? Common opinion is always distorted through the short sighted lens of perception.

 

Short sightedness could be a problem affecting survival, or it could be an advantage if people think wearing glasses makes you look sexy.

 

I want people to consider their actions from the viewpoint of their birds.

 

And he is a she.

Edited January 27, 2009 by DrNat

[JimmyBanks 0]

Sorry DrNat for some reason I thought he. :bliss: Good post

[Sailorwolf 0]

Eugenics is unethical to humans because it is telling people who aren't the desired type that they can't have kids.

It also narrows the gene pool and is seen every day with each breed of dog.

 

A dog or other pet however does not know that it is never going to breed (if it had undesired traits) and it wouldn't bother them to quite the same degree as a human. Also we have to remember not to place human emotions on to animals.

 

The ethical thing really comes into play as soon as you take those birds out of the wild. It is ethical to keep them in a cage? Is it ethical to keep them in a small flock? Is it ethical to keep them with only a few choices for partners?

 

Generally I wouldn't want to breed a bird that would pass on a painful condition to its young, because that is cruel to the young.

[**KAZ** 0]

[nubbly5 0]

A lady at Murdoch PROVED during her PhD that french moult IS a virus as has been stated here a few times it is Polyoma Virus (not to be confused with another virus of the circovirus family which causes PBFD (psittacine beak and feather disease which also affect other parrot breeds and budgerigars (budgerigars show lesser symptoms to some other parrots)).

 

As with many other virus' birds shed the virus through several routes - poo, mucous, feather dust. Over a period of time affected birds build an immune reation to the virus and eventually the virus is removed from their system. The little understood part of this is the questions of whether or not certain individuals remain as an infective agent and although look healthy, continue to shed virus.

 

I have had 2 runs of FM in the last 9 years, both from identifiable sources. I stopped breeding immediately, culled the nude birds as these seldom recover (and I HATE non-flyers), kept the rest (who eventually recovered enough to not be able to tell they were affected) and did a clean out. I have a breeding break for at least 6 months to allow the virus shedding to stop. Starting up again both times - absolutely no signs of FM until I stupidly re-introduce it again.

 

And yes I do breed from FM survivours with so far no impact on the new youngsters (bearing in mind this is at least 6 months since the last FM cases appeared).

 

 

 

As I said previously, I believe french moult is a virus. I breed with healthy unaffected survivors.

 

I also take every step to care for any sick birds until they recover in so far as is possible, but I don't usually breed with birds that have visible signs of having been affected by the virus, unless there is a specific need to.

Edited October 29, 2009 by nubbly5

[splat 0]

Up and until now touch wood I haven't had french moult, some breeders around here that do cull any subject that may be a carrier and There are a couple of breeders believe that breeding in the hot months contributes to french molt and also 1 breeder just had a couple of nest of french moult from birds that have never had it before and said it's getting hot and the birds are worn out and that's why they got it.

This french molt is a mild case where the feathers and tail grow back.

 

Last a year another breeder a beginner breeder through the year and everything was good and he decided to breed in December January and all the babies had french moult, So you tell me if there's any truth to the story but to me it's enough not to want to breed in heat.

[RIPbudgies 0]

Don't presume to know what anyone else thinks. Even then you might not get it.

You don't have to agree with what anyone thinks anyway, make up your own mind. That's the point.

 

As I said previously, I believe french moult is a virus. I breed with healthy unaffected survivors.

 

I also take every step to care for any sick birds until they recover in so far as is possible, but I don't usually breed with birds that have visible signs of having been affected by the virus, unless there is a specific need to.

 

Why is eugenics unethical? Read your history books, egypt, greece, rome, arranged marriages, we are all a product of eugenics. We even practice it ourselves with our birds. Whether you consider it ethical or not is a matter of personal opinion. If you don't think it ethical for humans, why do it with birds? Who gets to decide what is right or wrong, ethical or unethical anyway? Common opinion is always distorted through the short sighted lens of perception.

 

Short sightedness could be a problem affecting survival, or it could be an advantage if people think wearing glasses makes you look sexy.

 

I want people to consider their actions from the viewpoint of their birds.

 

And he is a she.

 

DrNat I'm with you on this one. Eugenics was widely practiced right up and into the 20th century. Ptolomy family of Eygpt's most famous Pharoah was Cleopatra was married to her brother. There are many instances through the great families of Rome, Eygpyt, Greece and even England. The level of inbreeding within ruling dynasties was extremely high. Blood of a lesser human just could not be allowed to taint any royal bloodline.

 

I firmly believe that the human species puts too much pressure both physically and monetary to keep what in animals terms would be considered 'culls'. If I bred a horse, dog or bird with a fault in which it required special care for it's entire life it would be humanly put down. Humans however are kept alive, at best in the home environment and at worst, in an institution. We would not breed from an animal showing a genetic predisposition for any physical or mental fault yet we let humans do it all the time. Even now with prenatal screens we can inform parents that a child may be defective but most will elect to have the child anyway.

 

As for the french moult. As nubbly says. Murdoch isolated the virus back in the 1980's and did extensive research for a number of years. Breeders, myself included, donated hundreds of birds to Murdoch for the research. Since Murdoch's ground breaking work other information has come to light and the simple polyomyvirus as it was termed then is now know as a circovirus family of viruses. As technology improves I am sure more will be researched.

 

In regards to myself and breeding FM. I do breed with them. In fact I recently got 4 FM birds off a breeder. Two are complety tail and flightless. The other two have crappy tails and limited flight feathers. They are still healthy birds and I will be breeding with them. The only ones I don't deal with are those that are almost naked. These don't recover and I either put them down or given them away as pets.

[nubbly5 0]

FM & PBFD are cause by 2 distinct viruses.

 

Polyomavirus causing FM (Budgerigar Fledgling Disease - BFD) & Circovirus (PBFD).

 

There actually IS a vaccine for FM whilst there is not yet a vaccine for PBFD.

 

 

Some information that I found about PBFD.

 

The original PBFD virus that causes this disease is now called psittacine circovirus 1 (PsCV-1). In recent years, a second variant of the virus was discovered in lories with feather lesions, and this variant is now called PsCV-2. Lories with PsCV-2 and dystrophic feathers may mount an appropriate immune response and eventually recover from the infection.

 

Australian explorers may have first identified this disease in 1887, when they described the characteristic feather changes in wild red-rumped parakeets (Psephotus sp.). However, the disease we have come to know was first described in several species of Australian cockatoos in the early 1970s. There were many proposed causes of this disease including endocrine abnormalities, polyomavirus, Mycoplasma, Newcastle’s disease virus, reo virus, adenovirus, salmonellosis and other infectious agents.

 

It has been reported that up to 20 percent of free-ranging cockatoos in Victoria, Australia, may have clinical signs of PBFD in any one year. Other studies and anecdotal reports indicate that the PBFD virus is causing disease in some other Australian cockatoo flocks, wild crimson rosellas and other wild populations of Moluccan cockatoos, lovebirds and other species of cockatoos.

 

No PBFD Vaccine

 

There is currently no preventative vaccine against PBFD, so our methods for controlling the disease involve testing susceptible birds and culling any that test positive twice, 90 days apart, if they have no lesions of PBFD. Any birds that test positive that have feather lesions should be considered to be infected. Birds that test positive twice, yet show no signs, should be considered to be infected and will most likely break with the disease at a later date or the bird is being persistently exposed to the virus.

 

This is often what we used to see with pets and breeders: A long-time pet or breeder bird would suddenly develop feather lesions and become ill. A positive test result would result in heartbreaking news for owners. A positive diagnosis was a virtual death sentence, as we could not treat the primary viral infection but only the secondary fungal, bacterial, mycoplasmal, chlamydial or protozoal infections. In spite of our best efforts, birds would eventually develop a debilitating illness from which there was no recovery.

 

The variant of circovirus, PsCV-2 requires a different DNA PCR test than PsCV-1. There is also a generic circovirus DNA PCR test that can be useful in diagnosing circovirus infections in other species, such as canaries and finches.

[GenericBlue 0]

this is all to much for my little brain

 

lets say this

lets say i have 5 clutches

and one is affected with chicks losing flights and the odd tail feather

the chicks developed well looked all good but then bang

one morning they had no flights

but still some flights were present

all but two chicks are in this condition

everything was fine but now its all gone pair shaped

the clutches affected were ones that the chicks were placed in and from each others nests but no other nest so far have been affected to date

 

how can you tell

one if its dehydration causing it or .....the molt virus ?????

 

 

seems my chicks have started to show these sighs :laughter:

my dom pieds :laughter:

i was so very proud of my self now i dont know what to do

 

 

i did move all the cabinets with my birds out of the breeding shed last week as i couldn't breath in their

it had air flow and natural light everything

i cleaned room all time but

ive have been having breathing probs for while now so i decided to move them back to where they were last year

 

so i dont know was it me moving them that caused stress molt or have i got a batch of fm on my hands

 

please someone explain for me in note point

what i do to aradicate the problem and how do i know what i have

 

lucky im at end of my breeding with last chicks hatching next week

 

 

please im not good with understanding things well so point form starting at top to end on how to fix and stop this would be appreciated

 

i will take pics today or tomorrow im charging cam so...

i feel it must be fm as i never seen it before and did feel something was slowing development of chicks growth down

 

 

me please

[nubbly5 0]

Best way to check if its FM or not is to pull the flight feathers gently. If they come away easily then it's likely to be FM. Then check the shafts and ends of the feathers. In FM chicks the feather shaft often has some dried dark blood in the shaft AND the end is pinched in.

 

The top 2 photos show normal feathers. Take a look at some from normal birds to get an idea yourself too.

 

These nest 2 photos show feathers from FM chicks. These are reasonably severe cases and sometimes you can see the pinching in of the feather without the blood in the feather shaft. Note how, especially viasable in the top feather, there is a distinct narrowing of the end of the feather shaft - this is a classic sign of FM. The bottom feather shows narrowing too but more severely and higher up the feather shaft.

 

 

If FM is just appearing every now and then and not too severely, you can leave it. Pull all the flights from affected birds and they generally will recover (not always but mostly), unless they are completely nudies then they are best culled - unfortunately. If you breed all year round you will probably see chicks every so often that are affected as you will have birds constantly infecting youngsters and other youngsters who although uneffected outwardly will be shedding virus.

 

If the FM gets out of control and there are many nests and babies showing up with it (this generally happens when you've gone a few years without seeing any active FM in your flock and then unwittingly bring it in from another flock with active FM - your flock has lowered immunity and can't combat the virus well). Then it is best to stop breeding completely for at least 4 months and 6 months for best measure. Let the birds rest, fight the virus, stop shedding it and build an immunity. Do a reasonable cleanout and spray treat your cabinets, perches etc with something like Virkon-S or a similarly effective antiviral antiseptic treament (F10SC I think it's called, is what I am using currently). Look for an antivirual treatment that has good activity against Parvovirus (Which also is an extremely hardy virus) and that gives you a good idea that it might be active against polyomavirus too.

Hope this helps.

Edited October 31, 2009 by nubbly5

[timbo.1 0]

ive had cases of french moult only when i breed in cages not the avairy. 6 months later, (touch wood) no runners have come out in the cages.

Edited October 31, 2009 by timbo.1

[renee 0]

Thank You Nubbly and RIP for your informative posts on this subject! Very Much appreciated.

[**KAZ** 0]

ive had cases of french moult only when i breed in cages not the avairy. 6 months later, (touch wood) no runners have come out in the cages.

Fluke timbo....you will still get FM in the aviary. I used to aviary breed so I know this to be true.

[GenericBlue 0]

thank you so much nubbly for your pictures of the feathers

im sure its got to be french molt

ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh mannnnnnnnnnn i thought i did everything right

i did how ever spend the whole day today cleaning my aviary down and i vacuumed it all out hosed it then swept it i also moved it as it was in wrong place

my dad and i spent all day he made wheels for it then we bolted them on and moved it then removed them again

i took out every branch, perch and the flooring

on Tuesday im getting paves for inside it and new branches and perches

as for the baby's with it well im unsure what to do with them they not to bad and three look okay now

i didnt get time for pics but i defenently will put some up showing my poor bubs

 

vet told me to move them out of the way of my other birds so i have i wont breeding for a while as im

a bit unsure of how this happened and i will be looking over my stock very close to see if i can see sighns in any of my older birds possably having it

 

thanks all for your help