The Great Yf Symposium

[GenericBlue 0]

This is probably a stupid question. Is it only the double factor mutant 1 that looks like a normal blue (no yellow)? Because I have a nest of 4 chicks, 2 are yellow face, 2 are white faced. The parents are both yellow face.

the normal looking chicks will also breed you all yf chicks when paired to a normal but im sure you knew that

[rachelm 0]

This is probably a stupid question. Is it only the double factor mutant 1 that looks like a normal blue (no yellow)? Because I have a nest of 4 chicks, 2 are yellow face, 2 are white faced. The parents are both yellow face.

the normal looking chicks will also breed you all yf chicks when paired to a normal but im sure you knew that

Thanks Dean and GB I thought the cock was a goldenface okay, so they are both mutant 1.

In a different nest I have yellowface cock and normal sky hen, they have 1 yellowface chick and 3 normal. I thought yellow face was dominate over normal blue.

[Dean_NZ 0]

It is but you only have a given chance of each chick getting a certain gene.

 

Single factor yellow face (any type) X normal = 50% normal chicks, 50% yellowface chicks. But you could get a round full of yellowfaces, then a round full of white faces, or a round of any percentage of mixed - its simply a genetic chance.

[RIPbudgies 0]

This is probably a stupid question. Is it only the double factor mutant 1 that looks like a normal blue (no yellow)? Because I have a nest of 4 chicks, 2 are yellow face, 2 are white faced. The parents are both yellow face.

the normal looking chicks will also breed you all yf chicks when paired to a normal but im sure you knew that

Thanks Dean and GB I thought the cock was a goldenface okay, so they are both mutant 1.

In a different nest I have yellowface cock and normal sky hen, they have 1 yellowface chick and 3 normal. I thought yellow face was dominate over normal blue.

 

Unless pics are posted we have no idea what type of yellowface they are. The white faced chicks could just be normal blues.

 

Yellowface to a Normal Blue will give YF and Blue if the YF is single factored, which is the case of your pairings.

[splat 0]

okay dean Pics please, not that I know the answer but I am just testing out a reply to see if I get shut down.

[GenericBlue 0]

This is probably a stupid question. Is it only the double factor mutant 1 that looks like a normal blue (no yellow)? Because I have a nest of 4 chicks, 2 are yellow face, 2 are white faced. The parents are both yellow face.

the normal looking chicks will also breed you all yf chicks when paired to a normal but im sure you knew that

Thanks Dean and GB I thought the cock was a goldenface okay, so they are both mutant 1.

In a different nest I have yellowface cock and normal sky hen, they have 1 yellowface chick and 3 normal. I thought yellow face was dominate over normal blue.

well unless we see him we wouldnt know

or is this the bird i saw on fb as if he has blue under his wings along the top to under his wing pit :} then he is golden face and half chicks will be single facxtor like him and other half will be normal

if you paired him to a yf of any other mutancy ( lol i know rips going to kill me for that )then thats a whole new world again one i dont dear touch on

but rip knows well about :}

[Dean_NZ 0]

okay dean Pics please, not that I know the answer but I am just testing out a reply to see if I get shut down.

 

okay I'll get on to it wednesday. I am preparing for my huge final exam on tuesday. SOOO nervous!

[rachelm 0]

Thanks GB. Not the ones on FB, these are my pet pair.

Mother and father front.

Mother and father back.

[RIPbudgies 0]

So to add to this thread with some more info.

 

Nubbly dropped in yesterday so we took advantage and got some comparision photos.

 

In each photo the bird of the left is the double factor Goldenface Violet and the bird on the right is a single factor Goldeface Mauve.

 

As you can see they are both in nest feather so you can see how different the single and double factor presents itself.

 

Front on shot showing the depth of yellow in both.

 

Side shoot clearly showing the different depths of yellow.

 

Wing shot. You'll notice the df has little yellow in the feathers compared to the sf. notice also on the rump that the sf bird shows suffsuion already.

 

Top side of secondary tail feathers. Again reduced yellow in the df bird.

 

Underside shot of secondary tail feather clearly showing the differences in the depth of yellow.

[GenericBlue 0]

So to add to this thread with some more info.

 

Nubbly dropped in yesterday so we took advantage and got some comparision photos.

 

In each photo the bird of the left is the double factor Goldenface Violet and the bird on the right is a single factor Goldeface Mauve.

 

As you can see they are both in nest feather so you can see how different the single and double factor presents itself.

 

Front on shot showing the depth of yellow in both.

 

Side shoot clearly showing the different depths of yellow.

 

Wing shot. You'll notice the df has little yellow in the feathers compared to the sf. notice also on the rump that the sf bird shows suffsuion already.

 

Top side of secondary tail feathers. Again reduced yellow in the df bird.

 

Underside shot of secondary tail feather clearly showing the differences in the depth of yellow.

my goodness rip i need a micky scope to see them lol

can you post bigger i truley can not see any thing just two cute birdys

[**KAZ** 0]

 

my goodness rip i need a micky scope to see them lol

can you post bigger i truley can not see any thing just two cute birdys

 

They are links GB. If you click on the photos they come up bigger

[GenericBlue 0]

 

my goodness rip i need a micky scope to see them lol

can you post bigger i truley can not see any thing just two cute birdys

 

They are links GB. If you click on the photos they come up bigger

oh thanks kaz , lol for showing my natural hair colour :}

i wasnt sure how i could prove it ,...lol

[Jaco_RBowQuest 0]

No worries lealotta, glad to help.

 

YF M2's appear to be a bit more common so I wouldn't at all be surprised if yours are mainly M2's. In DF these guys are nice with little suffusion and nice cream faces. Your creamino's (YF Albino's) will probably get penalised a bit heavily to compete well but hey they ARE an allowable combination so they can still go to a show in the YF class.

 

And yes I agree very much that you should breed the mutations that you like. It's usually the pretty birds that get us all into show budgies in the first place and it seems silly to end up with a stud full of boring grey greens just to win a show if you really like other mutations more. That's why I ended up with pretty little scungy clearwings. They are lovely, colourful, pretty things (what HAVE I done ).

 

Yes Nubbly5,

 

Very interesting reading this thread...and

...cannot agree more with the opinion about starting to breed budgies for the colour and variety..then only to end up with "boring / large albeit show class" budgies....

 

...I'm similarly interested in the "clearwing" variety as it brings out so much vivid colour with the bright body colour and the contrasting wing markings!

 

Way to go for me still, having too much of a mix between the M2 & M1 YF types together with spangle...is there a way to "divide" & separate the 2 gene pools from the other,as it may take quite a few generations to achieve this..

 

Keep going with the good and informative advice!

Stay well,

Jacodk

Edited July 22, 2011 by Jaco_RBowQuest

[nubbly5 0]

Hi Jacodk

 

Unless someone has found a gene marker for the 2 varieties I don't think there is any simple way of separating the 2 YF varieties. The only way would be through test mating and progeny records. Any YF's that, bred together, that produce DF in the white face form I suppose would have to be M1. M2 DF are still YF but less than the SF version. Other than that it's going to be a lot of mating and recording and separating them as best you can.

[**KAZ** 0]

On the 22nd Nov 2009 the BBC Great YF Symposium was held. Hosted by Renee and eagerly attended (might have been something to do with the food and beverages promised by Renee) by Kaz, RIPbudgies and Nubbly5. Sadly as 3 out of 4 of us had to drive, the alcohol was mainly consumed by Renee so I figure she might need this post to try and remember what actually happened on the afternoon .

 

We were lucky enough to have a selection of birds on loan from Libby (via Kaz) as well as RIP, plus a few home growns from Renee too. I have tried to capture here information for all other BBC members from the symposium as well as sharing pics - so I hope you all find it useful.

 

Some abbreviations that I have used:

 

DF = double factor

SF = single factor

GF = golden face

YF = yellow face

M1 = mutant 1

M2 = mutant 2

 

So to start with RIP's decription of the Green, YF, Blue allelic series goes something like this.

 

Originally budgies were green, mutations occurred that limited the production of yellow in the budgie to differing degrees. Completely in the case of blue budgies or incompletely in the case of YF & GF budgies.

 

On a scale of 0-100% yellow pigment it would look something like this.

 

 

100%......................................................................50%..............................................................................0%

Green.............SF GF...........SF M2 YF.................................DF GF.............SF M1 YF/DF M2 YF...........................DF M1 YF

 

 

The double factor mutant 1 YF LOOKS identical to a normal blue budgie but is genetically different in other words the total reduction of yellow from the bird is due to different genes producing the same effect in the bird.

 

Green, YF (all types) and blue genes ALL OCCUR ON THE SAME ALLELE so ONLY 2 of any of these genes can occur in the one bird.

 

The dominance progression in this allelic series is as follows:

Green is DOMINANT to YF, YF is DOMINANT to blue.

It is therefore INCORRECT to suggest that green MASKS yellowface. In fact it is correct to say that green can be split for YF. Also when we say "Single Factor YF" it would be also be technically correct to say YF split for blue (but that would be like saying Spangle split for normal (which is technically correct but that we don't do for dominant genes)).

 

Breeding expectations go like this:

 

Pairing a green bird to a SF YF bird looks like this:

Green/Green x YF/Blue = 50% Green/YF (green split for YF) & 50% Green/Blue (Green split for Blue)

 

Pairing a SF YF to a Blue bird looks like this:

YF/Blue x Blue/Blue = 50% YF/Blue (SF YF) & 50% Blue/Blue

 

Pairing a DF YF to a Blue bird looks like this:

YF/YF x Blue/Blue = 100% YF/Blue (SF YF)

 

Pairing a DF YF to a Green bird looks like this:

YF/YF x Green/Green = 100% Green/YF (Green split for YF)

 

To clarify then - A green bird is just that A GREEN BIRD it does not MASK yellow face as you cannot ADD EXTRA YELLOW TO AN ALREADY 100% effective YELLOW PIGMENT. A green bird is SPLIT for YF as YF is recessive to green.

 

Also you need to remember that there is a natural variation in the brightness of yellow shown in green variety budgies. A brighter yellow in some does NOT indicate that the bird is masking YF. It might or might not be SPLIT for YF, but like other recessive varieties it is NOT identifyable.

 

 

So what do all the different YF varieties look like:

I have been able to compile a group of photos to show you all the different YF forms.

 

So starting with the least reduction of yellow pigment - the single factor golden face (or single factor Australian Yellow Face)

This YF form reduces yellow pigment the least so single factor GF's appear to have a strong golden coloured face but also have strong yellow suffusion through the body colour (or better said, limited yellow reduction in the body colour).

Shown here is a SF GF Mauve - see how this bird looks almost olive in colour which it would be if 100% of the yellow pigment was still present but due to some removal of the yellow pigment by the SF GF gene, the bird looks slighly different to an ordinary olive colour.

 

okay, this fellow is a SF GF grey. Again notice how this bird is VERY NEARLY a grey green - but NOT QUITE. Again this is due to a small amount of yellow pigment reduction from the bird making the bird appear close to a grey green but on comparison is still slightly different.

 

The DF GF form reduces Yellow pigment even more. Restricting it almost to face areas only but retaining the strong golden pigment on the face. We were lucky enough to get a photo of a bird that had significant white areas which shows up the restriction of the golden colour very well. Obviously on birds with darker body colour, any remaining yellow suffusion is hidden better, making the DF GF in violet or mauve and extremely attractive contrast, with little to no suffusion into the body colouration evident.

 

 

Next is the YF Mutant 2. Below are several photos of SF YF M2's. This gene restricts yellow pigment more than the SF GF, but possibly less than the DF GF and shows a distinct lighter yellow suffusion throught the body colour but with a lighter yellow face colour than the GF. You can see in following photographs that the blue body colour is turned a distinctive aqua colour due to the suffusion of yellow through the body colour. In the case of the cinnamon opaline grey it is easy to see the yellow suffusion through the body colour.

 

 

 

The next photo we decided was most likely a DF YF M2 due to the almost total restriction of yellow suffusion in the body colour, combined with the softer yellow face colouring and the almost completely white wing markings, showing little of the yellow pigment through the rest of the body. The YF M2 in the double factor form further reduces yellow colouration, leaving the lighter yellow colour almost soley on the face area.

 

Lastly is the YF M1. This gene reduces yellow more strongly than the other 2 YF genes. In the single factor this bird looks just about identical to the DF YF M2, with yellow restricted to the face area and little suffusion of the yellow colour into the body colour.

 

In the DF form the YF M1 has 100% yellow pigment removal and looks identical to a normal white faced bird but will be genetically different. Test mating to a known normal blue or grey will give 100% yellowfaced chicks. The hen bellow is the mother of the yellow faced chicks above. Out of a number of rounds to normal blue partners she only ever produced YF chicks. Some of which are shown above.

 

So that's it for me.

 

Kaz, RIP or Renee...... like to add anything?

 

 

So the hen above is the mother to the hen and cock I have now from you ? At the auction today when I bought the grey green spangle cock who is "split for "YF for want of a better term or not someone came up to me after and made a point of telling me the bird could not be "split for" yf. It seems it was not believed and therefore limited the interest in bidding for this nice bird. I know better, and now I am going back through this topic to teach myself some yellowface basics I should have learnt a long time ago

 

 

PS this is the Rob Dunstan hen ? as ( if it is so ) I also now have its relatives thanks to our forum admin Liv.

Edited September 18, 2011 by **KAZ**

[nubbly5 0]

Yep, that's the one.

 

It took me quite a while to understand that YF is not "MASKED" by green a green bird is split for YF (not for want of a better term that's ACTUALLY what it is). Unlike and Albino "MASKING" other varieties a green is dominant to a YF. So if the bird has one green gene and one YF gene then technically it's a green split YF. If we technically correct we would say YF split blue for a SF YF bird too. With the Albino the genes occur on a different allele so they act separately to other varieties.

 

The trick is understanding that green, YF and blue ALL OCCUR ON THE SAME ALLELE. (Similar to the greywing, clearwing, dilute series). Because of this a bird can only have 2 of the 3 different genes on that allelic series. So it's either green split YF or green split blue.

 

The traditional thinking has been that a green bird can mask yf (so the 2 varieties occur as a separate series) this has been proven to be incorrect and with test breeding you will find that a green split YF paired with a blue bird will never produce a blue bird as all the babies will either be G/b of YF/b (so either green split blue or YF split blue (SF YF)).

 

 

G/yf x b/b - do the calculations

 

50% G/b

50% YF/b

 

Trouble is that people don't keep up with the current science and keep believing that what was thought but not proven in the past..... and of course we know that they OBVIOUSLY know better don't we.

Edited September 19, 2011 by nubbly5

[GenericBlue 0]

Yep, that's the one.

 

It took me quite a while to understand that YF is not "MASKED" by green a green bird is split for YF (not for want of a better term that's ACTUALLY what it is). Unlike and Albino "MASKING" other varieties a green is dominant to a YF. So if the bird has one green gene and one YF gene then technically it's a green split YF. If we technically correct we would say YF split blue for a SF YF bird too. With the Albino the genes occur on a different allele so they act separately to other varieties.

 

The trick is understanding that green, YF and blue ALL OCCUR ON THE SAME ALLELE. (Similar to the greywing, clearwing, dilute series). Because of this a bird can only have 2 of the 3 different genes on that allelic series. So it's either green split YF or green split blue.

 

The traditional thinking has been that a green bird can mask yf (so the 2 varieties occur as a separate series) this has been proven to be incorrect and with test breeding you will find that a green split YF paired with a blue bird will never produce a blue bird as all the babies will either be G/b of YF/b (so either green split blue or YF split blue (SF YF)).

 

 

G/yf x b/b - do the calculations

 

50% G/b

50% YF/b

 

Trouble is that people don't keep up with the current science and keep believing that what was thought but not proven in the past..... and of course we know that they OBVIOUSLY know better don't we.

for verification

what your saying nubbly is that all the chicks from a green/yf hen

will be either

yf blue single factor 1 mutant

or green /to blue ..meaning these chicks can not have a yf passed on to them ???

 

cause what i dont understand is how can you get green / yf birds if the / yf can not be passed on to the chicks that are green from a green / yf bird

i know you can get a gren split yf bird from breeding a yf blue and a green bird together but is it certain that that green /yf bird can not pass on its yf to its green chicks ? and only can pass it to its blue chicks

[Matt Welchman 0]

I Question the use of the word split for a dominant Variety.

[GenericBlue 0]

I Question the use of the word split for a dominant Variety.

well i always have too matt i was like but yellow face is dominant so it can only be yf or it can not

but rip asures me that no a green bird can only be split for yf as it cant hold all the cromazones (alies what ever on the same what ever lol

so that if a green bird has yf gene and blue gene it can only pase on on to the green chicks so they become split blue but the blue chicks well as yf is domanant they get the yf genetic regardless as both parents carry the blue genetic

i dont know something like that i ring her every month and ask how it works lol

oneday ill get it and keep it in their ...in my brain that is

[Daryl 0]

I Question the use of the word split for a dominant Variety.

 

The YF is only dominant in the Blue series but recessive in the Green series. Perhaps the question should be as to whether the YF should even be termed a Dominant variety!

[nubbly5 0]

It's all to do with past history and where people have ASSUMED that YF gene lobs onto it's very own allele rather than at the same place that both the green and the blue gene do. This is the key to understanding the YF genetics. Just like the Greywing, Clearwing, Dilute where Greywing is dominant to clearwing is dominant to dilute, (but you don't call any of them dominant varieties yet we understand the dominance heirachy) the green, YF, blue series works exactly the same way as green is dominant to YF is dominant to blue. Just remeber that a bird can only carry 2 of those 3 genes just like greywing,clearwing dilute.

 

So as Daryl says the YF is dominant to the blue but recessive to the green. So a green can be split for yf. A green can be split for blue too but a green can't carry BOTH a blue AND a YF gene NOR can it be a green/blue carrying YF. GB a green bird CANNOT carry BOTH blue and YF genes.

 

GB in the example I've given you have one bird with 1 green and 1 yf gene to donate and another bird with only 2 blue genes to donate so when you mate these birds together the ONLY combination you get is either green/blue or YF split blue. In THIS pairing you don't have YF from the other bird to donate to the gene pair. Just do a Mendle square and you'll work it out.

 

Now if you had a Gr/YF x YF/b sure you will have the chance of breeding more Green split YF.

Edited September 28, 2011 by nubbly5

[GenericBlue 0]

yep thanks nubbly i was just making sure my green chicks couldnt be yf so i can right it down

they must all be green/blue as dad was grey

the original question was

 

quote me

for verification

what your saying nubbly is that all the chicks from a green/yf hen

will be either

yf blue single factor 1 mutant

or green /to blue ..meaning these chicks can not have a yf passed on to them ???

 

cause what i dont understand is how can you get green / yf birds if the / yf can not be passed on to the chicks that are green from a green / yf bird

i know you can get a green split yf bird from breeding a yf blue and a green bird together but is it certain that that green /yf bird can not pass on its yf to its green chicks ? and only can pass it to its blue chicks

you have answered me in my understanding (my speak ) thanks

rip is always explaining it to me due to my confused mind i always get it then lose it

now ived copied into my bird bible ive made up

[nubbly5 0]

yep thanks nubbly i was just making sure my green chicks couldnt be yf so i can right it down

they must all be green/blue as dad was grey

the original question was

 

quote me

for verification

what your saying nubbly is that all the chicks from a green/yf hen COCK/HEN DOESN"T MATTER

will be either

yf blue single factor 1 mutant

or green /to blue ..meaning these chicks can not have a yf passed on to them ??? ONLY WHEN PAIRED TO A BLUE/BLUE PARTNER. THIS DOESN'T MEAN THAT IT'S IMPOSSIBLE IT'S JUST THE GENETIC POSSIBILITIES OF THAT PARTICULAR PAIRING.

 

cause what i dont understand is how can you get green / yf birds if the / yf can not be passed on to the chicks that are green from a green / yf bird ONE GENE FROM EACH PARENT SO IF THE OTHER BIRD ONLY HAS BLUE GENES TO GIVE THEN YOU CAN'T HAVE THE GREEN GENE AND THE YF GENE COME FROM THE SAME PARENT. SORRY GB THIS IS BASIC GENETICS AND YOU HAVE TO SIT DOWN AND WORK OUT THE GENETIC POSSIBILITIES FROM THE PAIRING. I CAN'T EXPLAIN IT ANY OTHER WAY. I'LL ATTACH A MENDEL SQUARE TO SHOW YOU. BIRD ON TOP IS GREEN SPLIT YF. BIRD ON LEFT SIDE IS BLUE/BLUE MENDEL SQUARE CLEARLY SHOWS THAT IN THIS PAIRING YOU DON'T GET ANY GREEN/YF AS THE MOTHER CAN ONLY DONATE BLUE GENES. DOES THIS MAKE MORE SENSE?

i know you can get a green split yf bird from breeding a yf blue and a green bird together but is it certain that that green /yf bird can not pass on its yf to its green chicks ? and only can pass it to its blue chicks NO THIS IS NOT WHAT I'M SAYING. ONLY IF YOU PAIR TO A BLUE/BLUE FOR THE REASONS I MENTIONED ABOVE.

you have answered me in my understanding (my speak ) thanks

rip is always explaining it to me due to my confused mind i always get it then lose it

now ived copied into my bird bible ive made up

[Taylor 0]

That explains a lot!

Thanks

[GenericBlue 0]

i hate to admit it but i cant do the mendel squares i never could

i know how easy they must be for everyone and your all probably thinking gb you cant be that stupid can you

 

but ... i can and i am

a lot it due to my memory being affected in my accident i cant retain information and takes me 10 times the normal person who struggles with learning takes me ten times longer than that to actually get things

sorry if im annoying nubbly but i am copying all your yf info and put it in my book

i wont need to ask again then i hope

but i do get it again now how long for well thats another question

Edited September 29, 2011 by **KAZ**