The Great Yf Symposium

[nubbly5 0]

On the 22nd Nov 2009 the BBC Great YF Symposium was held. Hosted by Renee and eagerly attended (might have been something to do with the food and beverages promised by Renee) by Kaz, RIPbudgies and Nubbly5. Sadly as 3 out of 4 of us had to drive, the alcohol was mainly consumed by Renee so I figure she might need this post to try and remember what actually happened on the afternoon .

 

We were lucky enough to have a selection of birds on loan from Libby (via Kaz) as well as RIP, plus a few home growns from Renee too. I have tried to capture here information for all other BBC members from the symposium as well as sharing pics - so I hope you all find it useful.

 

Some abbreviations that I have used:

 

DF = double factor

SF = single factor

GF = golden face

YF = yellow face

M1 = mutant 1

M2 = mutant 2

 

So to start with RIP's decription of the Green, YF, Blue allelic series goes something like this.

 

Originally budgies were green, mutations occurred that limited the production of yellow in the budgie to differing degrees. Completely in the case of blue budgies or incompletely in the case of YF & GF budgies.

 

On a scale of 0-100% yellow pigment it would look something like this.

 

 

100%......................................................................50%..............................................................................0%

Green.............SF GF...........SF M2 YF.................................DF GF.............SF M1 YF/DF M2 YF...........................DF M1 YF

 

 

The double factor mutant 1 YF LOOKS identical to a normal blue budgie but is genetically different in other words the total reduction of yellow from the bird is due to different genes producing the same effect in the bird.

 

Green, YF (all types) and blue genes ALL OCCUR ON THE SAME ALLELE so ONLY 2 of any of these genes can occur in the one bird.

 

The dominance progression in this allelic series is as follows:

Green is DOMINANT to YF, YF is DOMINANT to blue.

It is therefore INCORRECT to suggest that green MASKS yellowface. In fact it is correct to say that green can be split for YF. Also when we say "Single Factor YF" it would be also be technically correct to say YF split for blue (but that would be like saying Spangle split for normal (which is technically correct but that we don't do for dominant genes)).

 

Breeding expectations go like this:

 

Pairing a green bird to a SF YF bird looks like this:

Green/Green x YF/Blue = 50% Green/YF (green split for YF) & 50% Green/Blue (Green split for Blue)

 

Pairing a SF YF to a Blue bird looks like this:

YF/Blue x Blue/Blue = 50% YF/Blue (SF YF) & 50% Blue/Blue

 

Pairing a DF YF to a Blue bird looks like this:

YF/YF x Blue/Blue = 100% YF/Blue (SF YF)

 

Pairing a DF YF to a Green bird looks like this:

YF/YF x Green/Green = 100% Green/YF (Green split for YF)

 

To clarify then - A green bird is just that A GREEN BIRD it does not MASK yellow face as you cannot ADD EXTRA YELLOW TO AN ALREADY 100% effective YELLOW PIGMENT. A green bird is SPLIT for YF as YF is recessive to green.

 

Also you need to remember that there is a natural variation in the brightness of yellow shown in green variety budgies. A brighter yellow in some does NOT indicate that the bird is masking YF. It might or might not be SPLIT for YF, but like other recessive varieties it is NOT identifyable.

 

 

So what do all the different YF varieties look like:

I have been able to compile a group of photos to show you all the different YF forms.

 

So starting with the least reduction of yellow pigment - the single factor golden face (or single factor Australian Yellow Face)

This YF form reduces yellow pigment the least so single factor GF's appear to have a strong golden coloured face but also have strong yellow suffusion through the body colour (or better said, limited yellow reduction in the body colour).

Shown here is a SF GF Mauve - see how this bird looks almost olive in colour which it would be if 100% of the yellow pigment was still present but due to some removal of the yellow pigment by the SF GF gene, the bird looks slighly different to an ordinary olive colour.

 

okay, this fellow is a SF GF grey. Again notice how this bird is VERY NEARLY a grey green - but NOT QUITE. Again this is due to a small amount of yellow pigment reduction from the bird making the bird appear close to a grey green but on comparison is still slightly different.

 

The DF GF form reduces Yellow pigment even more. Restricting it almost to face areas only but retaining the strong golden pigment on the face. We were lucky enough to get a photo of a bird that had significant white areas which shows up the restriction of the golden colour very well. Obviously on birds with darker body colour, any remaining yellow suffusion is hidden better, making the DF GF in violet or mauve and extremely attractive contrast, with little to no suffusion into the body colouration evident.

 

 

Next is the YF Mutant 2. Below are several photos of SF YF M2's. This gene restricts yellow pigment more than the SF GF, but possibly less than the DF GF and shows a distinct lighter yellow suffusion throught the body colour but with a lighter yellow face colour than the GF. You can see in following photographs that the blue body colour is turned a distinctive aqua colour due to the suffusion of yellow through the body colour. In the case of the cinnamon opaline grey it is easy to see the yellow suffusion through the body colour.

 

 

 

The next photo we decided was most likely a DF YF M2 due to the almost total restriction of yellow suffusion in the body colour, combined with the softer yellow face colouring and the almost completely white wing markings, showing little of the yellow pigment through the rest of the body. The YF M2 in the double factor form further reduces yellow colouration, leaving the lighter yellow colour almost soley on the face area.

 

Lastly is the YF M1. This gene reduces yellow more strongly than the other 2 YF genes. In the single factor this bird looks just about identical to the DF YF M2, with yellow restricted to the face area and little suffusion of the yellow colour into the body colour.

 

In the DF form the YF M1 has 100% yellow pigment removal and looks identical to a normal white faced bird but will be genetically different. Test mating to a known normal blue or grey will give 100% yellowfaced chicks. The hen bellow is the mother of the yellow faced chicks above. Out of a number of rounds to normal blue partners she only ever produced YF chicks. Some of which are shown above.

 

So that's it for me.

 

Kaz, RIP or Renee...... like to add anything?

Edited November 30, 2009 by nubbly5

[renee 0]

Kaz, please PIN this post!

 

Well thank you very much Nubbly for the write up .... yes, it is true that I have partial amnesia .... but this post is a gem and anything I had forgotten has been included here :rofl:

[RIPbudgies 0]

Absolutely flipping fantastic. :rofl: You have covered it very well indeed.

 

The only thing to add is that when visual Violet GF or YF is produced the Violet factor coupled with the dark factor is far superior in reducing the amount of yellow pigment showing through when compared to a Sky Blue. Reason for this is the change in the feather structure itself cause by the Violet and Dark factor combined.

 

Renee put enough food out to feed an army. Good on ya Renee.

Edited November 30, 2009 by RIPbudgies

[GenericBlue 0]

guys well done now i can even understand that

with out needing to read it 6 times over

and photos to boot

love it cheers

[Budgieman 1 0]

Hi Nubbly5New to this site and found this thread informative. I have never really taken the time to learn the Y/F genetics so looks like I'm in for a bit of reading.I have attached a picture of a Y/F from last season. Got three in the nest all similar. Instead of an even colour they are mottled.Not sure what label to give them. After opinion.CheersSteve

 

Can't see the picture so trying again

CheersSteve

 

Edited March 14, 2010 by KAZ
fixed photo link that wasnt done right

[GenericBlue 0]

Hi Nubbly5New to this site and found this thread informative. I have never really taken the time to learn the Y/F genetics so looks like I'm in for a bit of reading.I have attached a picture of a Y/F from last season. Got three in the nest all similar. Instead of an even colour they are mottled.Not sure what label to give them. After opinion.CheersSteve

 

Can't see the picture so trying again

CheersSteve

 

 

 

im no compleate expert on golden faces but am going to try breed some when i can get a good one :bump:

but this cock looks like a double factor golden face cobalt boy

if you breed him to a normal hen you shall get only golden face single factor birds with the all over green efect

 

i say df gf as hes got the definite split of colour give or take a feather here and their

i will be corected if im wrong im most sure of that WELL I HOPE I WOULD BE

Edited March 14, 2010 by KAZ

[JimmyBanks 0]

OOOO now we are opening up a can of worms :bump: is GF a recognised mutation? I've spoken to some who say it is and others who say it isn't...

[GenericBlue 0]

OOOO now we are opening up a can of worms :bump: is GF a recognised mutation? I've spoken to some who say it is and others who say it isn't...

 

it will be again jimmy

just need a few breeders to breed them serriously again

and actually good quality

with clean cut sufuss

im going to try some df cobalt and violet opanline golden faces

also would be nice to breed some nice sea foam single factors also (should i say sky blue )

 

im not sure if its a actual class anymore it was once though be nice to get it back

[**KAZ** 0]

OOOO now we are opening up a can of worms :bump: is GF a recognised mutation? I've spoken to some who say it is and others who say it isn't...

 

 

JB go to the MBC forum where you are also and ask that question of Wilma B and see what answers you get

[JimmyBanks 0]

:bump: why do I get the impression you are setting me up KAZ???

[**KAZ** 0]

:bump: why do I get the impression you are setting me up KAZ???

No buddy Do it for the educational aspect

[GenericBlue 0]

:bump: why do I get the impression you are setting me up KAZ???

No buddy Do it for the educational aspect

 

???? please tell kaz got me intrigued now

[RIPbudgies 0]

Hi Nubbly5New to this site and found this thread informative. I have never really taken the time to learn the Y/F genetics so looks like I'm in for a bit of reading.I have attached a picture of a Y/F from last season. Got three in the nest all similar. Instead of an even colour they are mottled.Not sure what label to give them. After opinion.CheersSteve

 

Can't see the picture so trying again

CheersSteve

 

 

 

The photo appears to be that of a double factored Goldenface Cobalt (Australian Yellowface). What were the parents of this bird and siblings like it? Do you have photos of them?

[JimmyBanks 0]

If RIP says goldenface exists then I'll accept it... with reservations

 

Wait a second I just reread that... Why is (Australian Yellowface) in brackets?? Does Australian Yellowface = Goldenface??

Edited March 15, 2010 by JimmyBanks

[RIPbudgies 0]

If RIP says goldenface exists then I'll accept it... with reservations

 

Wait a second I just reread that... Why is (Australian Yellowface) in brackets?? Does Australian Yellowface = Goldenface??

 

 

Yes Jimmy Australian Yellowface is the same as Goldenface. It depends on who you talk too and where they live. I don't mind either term myself but if I was nailed down to pick I would have to lean towards Goldenface for the show arena and genetically I would go with Par-blue.

[JimmyBanks 0]

:hap: :hap: confusion is your middle name isn't it RIP! hahaha 'Par-blue'???? Are you refering to the normal green-goldenface-mutant 2 YF- mutant 1 YF - normal blue order of merit so to speak?

[RIPbudgies 0]

:hap: :hap: confusion is your middle name isn't it RIP! hahaha 'Par-blue'???? Are you refering to the normal green-goldenface-mutant 2 YF- mutant 1 YF - normal blue order of merit so to speak?

 

 

That I am Jimmy, that I am.

 

I'm not confused!

[JimmyBanks 0]

no I'm sure your not. We (read I) are though :hap:

[Budgieman 1 0]

I'm almost sorry I asked!

The hen is what I have been calling Golden Face Sky blue. The thing is that she is sky blue on the belly fading to aqua on the chest. I am obviously confused as I have always believed mutant 2 to be the aqua colour and mutant 1 to be blue with a yellow face. These birds fall somewhere between my thoughts. She was produced from a Goldenface Recessive Pied Grey Hen and a Normal Cobalt cock. The cock she was paired to was normal grey split cinnamon. The siblings from the nest, first time I have ever had 7 successfully raised in the one nest are as follows:

3 x Goldenface Cocks - all the same as the picture = mottled.

2 x Grey Cocks

1 x Cobalt Cock

1 x Cinnamon Sky Hen

One of the grey cocks and the cobalt have 'pied patch' on the back of the head.

I put them back together last week and they have produced their first egg today. I will be interested to see results.

Will see if I have a picture of the hen.

In the meantime I have some reading to do.

Cheers

Steve

[Budgieman 1 0]

For what it's worth from a self confessed novice - Golden face has to be a different type?

If you breed Lutino the addition of the Dark Factor leads to that rich golden colouring. Paired to Light Green / Lutino you can get a pale colouring.

So explain Golden Face Sky Blue? No dark factor? Am I off target?

Steve

[nubbly5 0]

Glad you enjoyed the thread budgieman. The question I want to ask you is how old is the cock and is his mother more or less mottled? Although he looks reasonably mature he may well not have finished his full adult moult during which time some body feathers might be less suffused than the others.

 

And Jimmy if you read the thread you will see that there are 3 accepted yf mutations - mutant 1, mutant 2 and goldenface (aka Aussie yf). So yes they do exist.

Edited March 15, 2010 by nubbly5

[JimmyBanks 0]

Yeah nubbly5 I thought about rereading it but my love of pot stirring prevailed...

[Budgieman 1 0]

Kaz,

The cocks have just completed their first moult. I may be wrong but in the past this has sorted them out. I have had green birds with blue bellys which have usually gone after the first moult. These guys have started as typical golden face and the mottle has increased through the moult. The picture I posted is the final result after the moult. You will have to allow me some leeway, being colour blind, but the picture shows green mottle, not the aqua you may expect. Their mother is not mottled and never was. She has matured with a blue belly and the aqua chest. These things never stop fascinating me.

Will see if I can get a picture of the three of them and their mother. I feel YF is the most unexplained of the lot.

Steve

Edited March 16, 2010 by Budgieman 1

[**KAZ** 0]

Glad you enjoyed the thread budgieman. The question I want to ask you is how old is the cock and is his mother more or less mottled? Although he looks reasonably mature he may well not have finished his full adult moult during which time some body feathers might be less suffused than the others.

 

And Jimmy if you read the thread you will see that there are 3 accepted yf mutations - mutant 1, mutant 2 and goldenface (aka Aussie yf). So yes they do exist.

 

 

Did you mean to answer this ?

[Budgieman 1 0]

Have a few computer problems at the moment so a bit stop/start.

The other noteworthy detail on these critters is that the mottle is not confined to the chest. The wings and the head bars are mottled also from white, through pale yellow to golden.

Will attach picture when the 'puter comes back from hospital or take another.

Cheers

Steve