RIPbudgies

okay I'll put you all out of your misery. It is a Dutch Pied(sf) Olive Green If you look closely you will see a couple of yellow feathers on his neck. Most of you thought he was Opaline because of the green in the back of the neck going down through to the wings. This is a trait of Dutch Pieds. It is referred to as "Frosting" and does not always manifest itself on all birds. I was researching this inheritence when I gave up the birds so I did not come to any conclusions. Another trait of Dutch Pieds is that the black markings on the wings especially are never sharp and clearly defined as in a Dominant Pied. They can and do have grizzled like flights. This is his father a Dutch Pied(df) Violet(sf) Mauve This bird was the start of my Dutch Pied breeding program. He was paired with the biggest Show Type Dark Green hen I had. It was a very prolific pairing and each round produced no less that 6 chicks all Pieds. I purchased him from a breeder who insisted it was a Danish Pied. One of his sisters a Dutch Pied(sf) Violet(sf) Dark Green

The Dark Factor alters the structual colour of the feather by changing the depth of the cloudy layer in the medulla immediately under the cortex. Proteins and eumelanin production and distribution are not alter in anyway.

Way to go. I clicker trained my horse around four years ago. He will touch objects, stand up on a raised platform, fetch sticks, allow me to throw a hula hoop over his head and I started teaching him to bow. We also played a game were by I give him a slap (nice one of course) on the rump and run off, he spins around and comes off after me. I could also pull a a big blue tarp over his head all the way over his body to the rear end. Considering he is an ex racehorse and thoroughbreds are notoriously flightly we only ever had one real mishap doing that in which I ended up with concussion. I came across clicker training from reading about a seeing eye horse called Panda. I also joined an email list clickryder. I followed the exploits of this exceptional little equine through the Panda Project until life got to hectic and I lost touch with lots of things including budgies. Image compliments of clickertraining.com

Well this was an interesting thread to read. Quote Jen144: I just ran into a friend of mine, who I only recently realized used to breed and show budgies on a very large scale. (he had a few hundred birds). He told me about how he somehow bred a completely grey budgie, no white, no markings, cheek spots, or anything. (is that even possible, I have never heard of such a mutation?) It will depend of what he considers Grey. The closest you can get to an all grey budgie would possibly be a Blackface Greywing but Blackfaces do not exist in Australia. I my experience also I have know people not to notice things such as spots, markings and cheek patches even though they do exist on the bird. Not everybody has the same level of observational skill. Quote Jen144: He had been expecting albinos from the pairing that got the grey. He bred it later with another bird, and got one bird that was completely grey again, with one red feather. I know this guy and he wouldn't lie about that, plus, it was born like that. (ie, when it grew feathers, it had one red one) The chances of this "new mutation" produced in one generation then going on to produce yet another new mutation would be nigh on impossible. Quote Jen144: He bred this one with another bird, and got a bird with a red chest and legs. Sadly, someone destroyed the aviaries and let all the birds out a while later, he then gave up breeding budgies...but is this possible?? I've heard it's not even genetically possible to get a budgie with any red on it..let alone a heap of feathers.. Anybody who breeds a new mutation is not going to outcross to another bird. The first thing when any new mutation is discovered is to breed back to a parent. Also at this time a program of intense inbreeding will also be put into place. Quote melbournebudgies: Did he have photos? Personally if I had bred a bird with red feathers I'd be snapping away with the camera going through roll after roll of film I so agree with this. I know when I produced a Self-colour I certainly got photos and told no-one about this bird until I had figured out exactly what I was dealing with. Quote Krosp: I wonder what he means by red, too.... like, whether it's a bright red like a king parrot, or if it maybe had a pinkish hue or something? Some Cinnamon Violets produced have been labelled "red" at times. There is a Violet gene out there but appears to be quite rare known as "parma" which produces the best Violet colour you'll ever see. Quote melbournebudgies: My kelpie is 'red and tan' but red actually means a reddy shade of brown, could it have been a very reddish cinnamon... Absolutely spot on statement. Being a fan of Kelpies (I own a Kelpie x Huntaway) I know exactly what you mean. Quote Jen144: I didn't think that even a grey cinnamon would have the cinnamon colour in the body feathers as well, which could lead to him thinking it was red..Don't cinnamon's just have that colour in their wings feathers? I don't think he gave the birds any 'colour enhancing' stuff, seeing as it was only one budgie in a couple of clutches that got the red feathers..not even its siblings.. Cinnamon only changes the black marking to brown. If you bred a Cinnamon to a Blackface you would get the brown in the body. Quote Jen144: Okay. He told me exactly what he paired with what to get the grey bird, and to get the 'red' bird..and he kept huge logs of his bird's pairings etc..so that would help wouldn't it? Quote melbournebudgies: Not really no, if it's true it would most likely have been a lucky pairing of two birds that both carried the mutation or a point mutation that occured when the egg was fertilised. Actually it would help especially if he produced something and misidentified. Never dismiss any information that is offered. I for one what to know the parents of the "grey" and the bird he paired it too and if possible a list of all sibling produced from all pairings. Quote Neville: A small amount of red melanin must be present to produce violet, or even cinnamon, on a budgie so theoretically a mutation with red in it could happen one day. Sorry Neville but this statement is 100% incorrect. Budgies have only two pigments in their makeup; black (melanin) and yellow (Pscittacin). The colours we see in budgies are produced with these two pigments and feather structure. Quote Neville: I doubt that it has happened yet because I'm sure that any budgie breeder who produced a budgie with red on it would know the significance and spread the word very quickly. To put it bluntly that person would be an idiot. As melbournebudgies pointed out about his friend with Lutino Rainbow Lorikeets. By telling people he not only got broken into and his birds stolen but he lost an opportunity many in aviculture would dream having. Your name linked to a new mutation or species. Quote Neville: I believe a budgie that is completely grey, green, blue or even black will probably happen sometime I am not going to say impossible in the true sense of the word. I will say impossible as a stand alone mutation. The Grey, Green, Blue, or Black have one thing in common they all have markings, spots, cheek patches. All these things are inherited differently. Each mutation affects these areas differently. I do say however it could be possible by combining mutations.

Recessive Pied is also known as: Danish Pied Danish Recessive Pied Harlequin Pied They DO NOT have iris rings. Due to lack of comminication when the budgie started to mutate to the different varieities we see today, each country or continent would name the bird. When communications improved and fanciers put their head together and realised some birds were one and the same they then started to use terms that were use more frequently. A lot of the standardisation came form the UK as this is were the budgie really began its development. The Harlequin is a term that seems to persist in the USA and also seems to be used in conjunction with Yellowface. Just like the Yellowface Opaline Clearwings are refered to as Rainbows. However adding yellowface to pied does not really produce the same profound effect as it does on the Clearwing. When the someone says it is a Normal Recessive Pied they mean it is a Recessive Pied with no other mutation in its visual makeup.

It could still be double factor if both parents were single factor pied. If so in theory you should have the usual 1:2:1 ratio of normal, single factor and double factor pieds all in the same nest. I think you missed the point here. Splat had bred a pied very like the one I pictured on this thread. It was bred from a Normal parent and a Pied parent. Splat was told it was Double Factored based purely on the fact that it had very few pied markings. So far every body who has contributed to this thread holds thats belief and labelled the Pied on this thread a Double Factored Dominant Pied.

Daz you are priceless. I have enjoyed reading this thread. :28: :5: To everybody on this forum

Splat you are correct you bird was not a Double Factored Dominant Pied. It seems to be a common misconception that because the bird is almost devoid of markings it is a Double Factor Dominant Pied. Of course you found out your's wasn't but I bet it confused you because of what people are telling you.

Actually no they are not a mutation sex linked for colour. The opaline gene is pigment distribution mutation. It alters the distribution of the pigment without creating any new pigments. It causes the underwing stripe in a budgie to become visable above the wing, which in budgies is known as a wing mirror. The normal grey down is replaced with white down. It reduces the spread of grey family pigments whilst enhancing the spread of yellow family pigments.

The majority of his wings were clear of markings but what was there were normal in nature.

As MB says and I forgot to mention. Fruit and Vegies. Can't under-estimate the value of a balanced diet. I also forgot to mention in my previous post. Calcium works in conjuction with other minerals such as Phosphorus. There is a ratio involved but can't remember what it was for birds. In horses it is 3:1 Calcium-Phosphate if the phosphate levels rise too much the horse can end up with a diesease called "bighead", this is a swelling of the face (they get hugh). It was a common occurance years ago in baker's horses as they fed them diets high in bran and pollard to keep feed costs down.

Unfortunately this is the only picture I have left of this bird. I can tell you he has an iris ring and has very little markings on the back but what there were normal barring in nature. I knew I should never have deleted those hundreds of photos. Oh well. :happy-dancing:

As Daz and Kaz said the article is really about over dosing. I personally used Calcivet with my birds which included pigeons. On first pairing up I would give calcivet in the water in the correct dose. This was a little booster mainly for the hens to make sure the Calcium levels were sufficient. I made my own Calcium/minerals blocks (kept down cost and better product than store bought) which were always in the breeding cabinets and really got a flogging during breeding. Blocks are better as the birds will take what they want when they want. I would only use the Calcivet during breeding if other calcium related problems arose.

Glad somebody had the time tonight Elly. I have been zipping all over the www tonight. This is my last post and I am off to bed. Agreeded Kaz the Cobalt does look Violet. Mum is a Goldenface(sf) Spangle Sky Blue Dad is a Spangle Mauve possible Violet there too. Tweety is a Goldenface(SF) Recessive Pied Cobalt cock Link is a Spangle Recessive Pied Dark Green cock Cobalt's Friend is a Spangle Recessive Pied Dark Green cock

Although the photo does not show the whole bird it is enough to get some guesses going.

The bird is a Continental Clearflight otherwise known as a Dutch Pied. Unless both parents were split Recessive you would never have produced a visual Recessive Pied. The bird sitting directly under the Goldenface is also a Dutch Pied.

It seems the wrong link from photobucket has been posted that's why the images don't come through. fero has posted the Share URL - Email & IM link instead of the IMG Code - Forums & Bulletin Boards link.

They are both hens. Your mother is wrong.

Thanks JB... I think I'm gonna like what this bird looks like if this is the case. Chrissy you will like the bird. I have bred Goldenface in all mutations. It seems no matter what is is combined with it looks great.

Me god: Spangle Light Green hen Four/B: Opaline Texas Clearbody Dark Green hen Devil: Spangle Light Green hen Curious: Recessive Pied Light Green Six?: Spangle Recessive Pied Cinnamon Light Green hen Buffy: Opaline Grey Green hen Bluey: Spangle Light Green cock Big Bird: Recessive Pied Light Green cock Baby Cake: Yellowface Mutant 1(sf) Cobalt cock Sam: Spangle Sky Blue In regards to Six? the photo is a little blurry. Is it possible to get a Sharper image. But I see what I see in that photo.

No they are not the same. The term double factor (df) is referring to the bird carrying two genes for the same mutation. The term Single Factor (sf) is referring to the bird carrying one gene for the same mutation. Dark Factor is an addtional factor that when added to Light Green or Sky Blue produces a Dark Green or Cobalt. When there are two Dark Factors then the birds are Olive and Mauve. Regarding the double factored Dominant Pieds. It cannot be distinguished that just because a bird has minimal pied markings that it is a double factor. Test pairing will provide an answer as will knowing the parentage.

Sorry to hear the bird didn't make it. An autopsy is a good idea.

If it is an impacted crop it can treated. It will hard to do though if you don't own a crop needle. The way I use to do it was to crop needle a few mls of warm water directly into the crop. Massage gently, turn the bird upside down and try to massage the mass little bit at a time out of the crop. It needs to feel soft and pliable.