Daryl

I agree with you Friday night would be a poor choice for meetings. My club's meetings are on a Friday night, having been moved from a Monday back in the 90's. This was done to make it more family friendly (ie late nights for school kids are not good). However we now find that many of us are eager to get home to watch the footy! I guess you can't please everyone.

Plus it's a bit of fun and opens up a whole new perspective of our hobby

She's definitely worth having a play with and I think RIP might think that too given her offer of an interstate holiday for her

Thanks, that'll save me a few hours of looking in all the wrong places to find what mightn't even be in the house anymore

Looks really good, plenty of room for them to exercise. I like your idea of putting rings on the perches for them to play with, haven't seen that before. I'll have to go through what's left of the kids baby toys and see if I can find something similar for my baby cage.

I think Heathrow, Renee and Daryl may have misunderstood my point. Read my post above Guys Not sure about misunderstanding Kaz, I think perhaps you have softened your stance a little. This is your statement that I think people are responding to: Anyway, I dropped in to the retailer/manufacturer where I purchased my pellets today to find out about the molasses content. It seems there is still a very small component of molasses in the pellets. I asked why and he said it was for the nutrient value molasses provides. The label had changed to meet legal requirements for disclosure of some other ingredients. He said that higher amounts of molasses would not be good for birds for the reasons I outlined earlier but that the small amount in the Small Bird pellets was fine. I also asked about the suitability of feeding guinea pig pellets to budgies and he was concerned with the fact that they contained lucerne which he believes is too high in fibre for budgies and likely to scour them (he used some other terms but I've forgotten them ). It was at this point I recalled an incident that happened with the SEQ National team in Tassie this year. Upon arrival the team was placed in holding cages, the bottoms of which were lined with lucerne. The birds began to eat some of the lucerne and in a short time a number of birds had become ill with heavy diarrohea and had to be scratched from the show. One of Henry George's birds was still sick some weeks after returning from this show. Based on this I'm not sure that the guinea pig pellets are a good idea long term. The business proprietor I spoke to studied Avian and Animal Nutrition for 4-5 years whilst establishing his business. I asked him about the use of whey protein as none of his products have it. He confirmed what I had mentioned earlier in that birds are lactose intolerant and therefore unable to assimilate the protein from this source. In high enough quantities it could cause intestinal problems. Perhaps the reason that this hasn't been the case with many so far is that they are not consuming massive quantities. Anyway, the short of it is that even if it doesn't make them ill it's not providing them with much extra usable protein as it's not assimilated. A dropping swab could help to confirm this. I asked him about the feeding of meat and chicken too. (I think) he stated something along the lines of budgies' digestive systems not being designed to handle this. Also said something about the budgies droppings going black and why it was bad but I've forgotten the details . He was also extremely concerned with the health risk posed by decaying meat if left uneaten. Perhaps the birds are thriving in spite of eating meat, not because of it. I can understand breeders wanting to feed red meat in particular as it is a fairly complete protein. But, as Dean stated earlier you can also achieve this through a balanced diet of grains and legumes, both of which are assimilated by budgies. I guess my overall concern here is that meeting the protein requirements of a budgie with red meat, chicken, milk derivatives and guinea pig pellets seems to be running the gauntlet when compared with achieving the same thing through sprouts, grains and lentils, pellets with an amino acid profile designed specifically for birds and perhaps the addition of egg powder if desired, all of which ARE going to be digested by budgies. On our club visit to Henry George's birdroom (winner of the most National awards in the history of the ANBC) I saw no cooked chickens, no sizzling steaks, no whey products and not a guinea pig pellet in sight. His feeding methods in the breeding cages were quite modest by what some of us do here and yet he has managed to achieve more than any of us in regards to breeding winning birds. Finally, most things in moderation is generally the key to life. The use of what may be deemed high amounts of protein is actually detrimental to the health of our birds and will not promote super levels of muscular and feather growth just as insufficient protein will hinder the development of such. Excess protein is removed by the kidneys and passed out through the droppings rendering it as a wasted supplement and thus money down the gurgler. Ingestion of excessive protein for a prolonged period will actually damage the kidneys. The budgie pellets have 15% protein which I was told today is plenty. But equally as important is that they contain the correct balance of amino acids to make up this protein. I hope this is of use to some here. As Kaz has pointed out there ARE top breeders using alternative feeding methods and they are successful. The one common thread each of these methods shares is variety. As the saying goes, there's more than one way to skin a cat (where did that stupid saying come from anyway?). It's up to each of us to choose which path we feel comfortable with.

Looking good Dave. I like the one above best, I think she'll turn out pretty nice.

That's exactly what I'll be doing tomorrow. In person.

I will let you know once I complete my inventory after my cull is done. Breeders all put up a bird or two or three on the show bench with a starting price on a piece of paper. Those interested add their bid on the paper and it keeps going till time up. When its time up the person whose bid is the highest on the paper gets the bird.For instance....this fellow the breeder put $50 starting bid on. I put $55 and noone else bid on him so I got him for $55 BARGAIN!!! Very nice.

Wow, you're right, I never saw that before and I've looked at it quite a few times. I'll have to ask the guy how much is in it and why it's there. Interesting. An Update: Solved one mystery as to why I couldn't recall molasses being in the pellets; because it isn't! The label shown on the link above is an old mix. When I checked my package I found a few ingredients had changed from the web link including the removal of molasses. Here's my pellet package: It's now the end of day 2 of my experiment to replace the dry seed in the diet of 8 birds with the pellets above. They have just eaten all the seed and, although they are eating the pellets, there is a lot of commotion going on in the bowl as they are obviously searching for the seed. So, whoever said there was less wastage with pellets hasn't seen a mob of frustrated budgies playing soccer with the stuff. I did a top up just to make sure no one goes hungry.

Forgot to add, do you have any other details of the diet this breeder is feeding?

Dean, Sprouting is not hard once you discover a method that works for you. There are lots of methods that people are happy with but I will briefly outline what works for me: 1. Soak seed mix for a maximum of 12 hours in clean water (I haven't determined a minimum time required yet but even 6 hours works. I'm just not home after 6 hours of soaking). 2. Drain and rinse well (very well) and drain again. 3. Rinse every 12 hours (or more often if possible) until seed is sprouted to the length your happy with (1-3 days depending on climate and seed types used). Tips:Keeping it clean. The one thing you want to avoid is the seed going sour. Some people use a small amount of bleach (or Avi-Clens or the like) in the soaking/rinsing process. I've heard it said that the seed does not absorb the chlorine and so is harmless. I prefer not to take the chance and keep the seed fresh by frequent rinsing (even just before feeding to the birds). If I'm in doubt about the smell of the sprouts on the day of feeding I'll just throw them away (hardly ever have to do this). I've been feeding sprouted seeds for a few years now and I don't think any bird has gotten sick from the sprouts as yet. Seed choice. At the moment I'm using a mix of mung beans, grey sunflower, racehorse oats, wheat and corn. I'm always open to trying another grain. I used to sprout the standard budgie mix but it is much more prone to going sour (some say it's the Jap millet, I never did work out which of the 3 seeds was the problem). Container. I use a stainless steel one, glass is okay too. Plastic is prone to absorbing the bacteria and accelerating the process of your seed going off.That's it. Like I said, if anyone has any other seeds/legumes they sprout (and which are fairly easily obtainable) I'm all ears! Now what was the chance that there was a Lada driver on this forum? Glad to hear you got a good run with yours, but they did get a very bad rap in the media when introduced to this country for their variable quality. Additional to this I am going to mention that this particular breeder is feeding chicken daily to the birds. Every budgie in a breeder cage is getting a good tablespoon each day of ground chicken with ground bone through it ( chicken necks cooked for hours to remove fat, and to soften bones and then put through a mincer ) and they are eating the lot. I guess if he's going to this much trouble he deserves to get results. I would think that the "chicken diet" would only be suitable for those who are able to remove the uneaten portion within a few hours of feeding. Here in QLD, unless your birdroom was aircon'd or the birds got your undivided attention I think it would be fairly difficult to feed chicken safely. But it's amazing what you can get budgies to eat if you try. I might grab some KFC for lunch. I wonder if any of my birds would care to share a 2-piece feed or a cup of popcorn chicken with me?

144. When your wife says, "I just did the grocery shopping yesterday, so who the *** ate all the vegetables?" 145. When you offer to organise a family holiday in the last week of May which magically just happens to be in the same location as the Nationals. 146. When, in an intimate moment, your wife asks, "What are you thinking about?" and you know it's certain death if you admit you were thinking about whether your best Opaline hen would go okay with your best Grey Green cock. 147. When you tell your wife, "Hey, remember that time when I told you about the Opaline Sky hen and the Grey Green cock, well they just hatched their first chick and..........ummmm......ohh.......never mind". 148. When you wonder if there's some way of using that Harvey Norman voucher you got for your birthday to buy more birds. 149. When you have to convince the pharmacist that "No, I'm not a druggie, I just need a small syringe to fit my crop needle to". (I really don't think they believed me).

134. When shopping for a new house there's only one thing that matters; will the aviaries fit in the yard? 135. When you run out of microwave containers because they all somehow found themselves in the aviaries full of seed (boy did I get into trouble for this). 136. When emailing another budgie nut who's attached overseas you spend 5 paragraphs describing every minute detail of the past budgie month and finish the email with, "So, how are you doing". 137. When friends visit you announce that, "There will be an aviary tour departing in the next 15 minutes but places are limited so be quick". 138. When you can't sleep the night before a budgie auction because you're too damn excited! 139. When taking a sickie your boss signs off the approval form, "Caring for sick budgie.....again".

132. When you describe your youngest daughter's upcoming orthodontic fitment as "having work done to her upper mandible".

Wow! Should look a million bucks next year if she's looking this good now. Are they the same bird? The older one looks Grey Green whereas the younger one looks Dark Green. Could be my monitor again.

They're all very nice. I particularly like the darker coloured Violet hen. I reckon Renee might be right. You should at the very least keep the pre-selections honest with this array of Greywings

Good post Karen. I agree that whey protein is a more complete protein than soy. Which is why it is favoured by body builders over soy. Then again egg protein is supposed to be the most complete, but can be expensive these days. I'm also aware of other breeders besides yourself using whey as an additional protein source and it's encouraging to note that you appear to have no side affects. But if it is true that budgies are lactose intolerant then wouldn't the protein from whey just pass straight through them with little being taken up? Perhaps it's not that they get sick from whey, perhaps it's just ineffective. I don't know. I've used Budgie Starter too, in fact used it for the first half of this year and my birds loved it. I noticed when I bought it that it had whey in it. Perhaps this is added as a convenient source of protein balance for this manufacturer. A very quick Google check of bird pellets found that lots don't use whey in their mixtures but a few do. I asked the retailer of the pellets I use why they had no whey and he also said it was for the reason of lactose intolerance. I'd like to think the animal nutritionists who devise the formulas for bird additives/pellets/extras have a much better idea of their requirements than most of us. But when they're in disagreement then how the *** are we supposed to decide who's right? :laughter: A long time ago I used soaked bread and milk too but, aside from any concerns with assimilation, I'm more concerned with the birds getting sour milk before I can remove any uneaten portion. I think the practice of feeding any suitable soft food in addition to a basic seed diet is going to reap some benefits. As for feeding meat and the like, I also know of a top breeder who feeds chicken carcasses but lost a number of birds after the meat went off. At the end of it all though I still believe the reason that the top breeders have the monster size birds they do is through years of selective breeding (although your point about the breeder you visited is not lost on me). Feeding plays a part in allowing the birds to reach their potential. If feeding played the major part in growing huge birds then I'd expect ALL of the top breeders' birds to be huge, not a select few. If it ain't in the genes then no amount of protein is going to grow a monster size bird. So much for us to learn........

That's exactly what my wife said when I showed her the photo But then added, "Too bad you can't make a meal for us like that" :laughter:

Wow, you're right, I never saw that before and I've looked at it quite a few times. I'll have to ask the guy how much is in it and why it's there. Interesting. It might also be worthwhile checking that the guinea pig pellets you're using are not the ones listed at this link as they contain the following warning: This feed is scientifically formulated for the intended species of animal and should not be fed to any other animal. It may contain medication and ingredients that may prove harmful if fed to other species. This isn't meant to be a go at you in any way because I know in the past I tried using turkey starter pellets and later found out they have all kinds of nasty things in them. I just think it might be worth looking into. Your birds certainly seem to be doing well on them and as I said they contain a lot of worthwhile ingredients.

Nice birds and not a mop to be seen

Interesting thread, but time for me to chime in as I believe the poor old pellet is not getting a fair go in this thread. First, let me declare that I feed a varied diet that includes mixed seed, bird pellets, vegetables and various sprouted seeds to try to meet the carbohydrate, protein, fat, fibre, vitamin and mineral needs of my birds. Dean, I think you're on the right track with trying to achieve different ratios of protein/carbs/fat to meet the needs of your birds at different times of the year. I've tried using egg protein powder also but, after repeated attempts my birds would not accept it. Now! It seems that without exception all of the posts above agree that bird pellets are bad for birds. This may be true for some of the cases mentioned in the American link posted by Kaz, but painting all pellets with the same brush seems unfair. That would be like saying that all cars are rubbish because your first car was a Lada Samara (anyone remember these?). One point agreed by all in this thread is that variety is the key to healthy budgies (and to which I whole heartedly agree). Yet why are bird pellets so condemned? This is where the points made in this thread have become unbalanced. It has been agreed that it's okay to feed guinea pig pellets to SUPPLEMENT a budgie's diet, but it is not acceptable to feed a supposed complete budgie pellet as a SOLE dietary source. For all those who are against the feeding of bird pellets as the sole diet, why would you simply not feed them as a SUPPLEMENT to your varied seed diet? That is, to supplement your budgie's diet with a pellet developed specifically for the diet of a bird and not that of a rodent with different dietary needs. I'm all for experimentation with different foods but when a suitable pellet has already been developed wouldn't that be the first choice? I agree that some of the prices charged for some bird pellets border on highway robbery so you need to shop around. Later I'll link to a pellet I'm currently using which I believe is also good value. Also, palatability varies with brand and you need to find something your birds will want to eat. Younger birds will accept them more readily. Looking through the ingredients of the guinea pig pellet there seems to be a fantastic array of suitable foodstuffs. In an earlier post I mentioned that the guinea pig pellets also contain molasses. Molasses is high in energy (which can be good at certain times of the year) but as molasses comes from cane sugar then this energy is derived from sugar. The diet of the budgerigar does not normally take in sugar and with good reason: sugar can provide food for any yeast residing in the crop and thus encourage the development of crop fungal infections. Not good. Next, protein supplementation. At the moment I try to meet the protein needs of my birds with the variety of foods mentioned in my opening paragraph. But, as with most of us, our birds' diets are dynamic and I may well change in the future. As for using whey protein powder I'm afraid I can't agree with that either. Budgerigars are generally lactose intolerant and therefore their digestive system does not effectively assimilate protein from milk sources. Whey protein is dairy based and comprised of 70%+ lactose. Hence why I've tried to follow what Dean mentioned and get my birds (unsuccessfully) to accept egg powder protein. However, if you think you're getting good results from the Whey powder with no side effects then I guess go for it. Another thing to consider is that massive amounts of protein will be harmful to your birds anyway. Plus, the addition of extra protein won't make your bird grow to Herculean proportions. If it were that easy then gyms would be out of business and all of us males would be Arnie lookalikes simply by eating super high protein. Budgies don't lift weights so all that the extra protein can do is assure the birds reach their genetic potential, nothing more. One thing borne out in this thread is that we all feed a different diet to our birds and we can learn from each other. There is no one superior diet and diets are often tailored to suit both owner and bird. However, given the bad rap that bird pellets seem to have gotten in this thread I'm going to try an experiment of my own and report the findings, good, bad or indifferent, back to this forum. I currently have a cull cage which has 7 birds aged from 2 to 6 months old and a 5 year old cock. Instead of offering them the usual mixed seed dish, separate pellets and my soft food mix I am going to replace the seed with pellets only. I plan to do this for the next 4 months. They currently eat all the pellets I offer so the conversion should be fairly easy (although I'll keep a closer eye on the 5 year old to make sure he's actually eating). Below is a picture of the dish I have offered the birds today. It is a mix of seed and pellets, but contains only enough seed for about 2 days. When it is devoured I will replace it with just pellets. Just to be clear, although this pellet is marketed as a complete food, I am with the majority on this thread in that I would NOT feed it as such. These birds will still receive all of the additional foods that the rest of my birds receive. But I believe the pellets may be superior to the basic canary/millet mix alone which is deficient in essential amino acids, vitamins and minerals. Anyway, time will tell. Here is a link to the pellet I'm feeding. I can't speak highly enough of the products offered at this establishment (the seed is the cleanest I have ever seen), but the web site is a bit of a shocker! Small Bird Pellet The one I use is called Small Bird Diet. Basic specs are listed at the bottom of the page. Here's a picture of the soft food mix my birds get. It generally consists of sprouted mung beans, sprouted grey sunflower, sprouted corn, sprouted racehorse oats, sprouted wheat, grated carrot and chopped broccoli. I'm still experimenting with the ratios. I sometimes like to add a few other things but this takes enough time in the morning as it is. Here are 2 pictures of the soft mix: Closeup: Each cage gets enough so that where possible it's all eaten by mid afternoon. I feed this all year round. Naturally enough any birds feeeding chicks eat a greater quantity of it. Another change I made to my feeding regime recently (encouraged by this forum) was to replace the cuttlefish bone with a mineral powder mix for economic and dietary reasons. It is the pink powder at this link. I offer it in a separate small bowl (others would probably use finger drawer feeders for this). The birds eat it sparingly but it will last MUCH longer than the cuttlefish. One important point with feeding bird pellets is to use the right one. On the site I have linked to above you can also find reference to a Breeders Pellet. I used to use this one when breeding Rosellas a few years ago. Although tempting with it's higher levels of protein, this pellet is NOT suitable for our budgies. The main reason for this is the increased calcium levels. Excessive calcium can lead to kidney problems amongst other things. Hence why I'm generally not in favour of adding liquid calcium to the bird's water (meaning they MUST take it in) when you have already taken other steps (ie the pink powder, the pellets) to ensure they can, if required, select foods containing calcium. The right amount of calcium is good but too much of a good thing is bad. Finally, whilst taking the photos of the seed/pellet mix I decided to add another photo of something else I do. Some on here like to add millet sprays to the next box to encourage the chicks to begin eating. Weather permitting (ie, not too cold) I like to move the babies to the main seed bowl just before they are due to leave the nest. Here they will be fed by the parents and, as they are living in the seed dish, will usually begin cracking seeds within the first day. The trick here is to use a bowl of sufficient size that the chicks cannot escape until they are able to move fairly well around the cage. By this stage they will also be eating fairly well, although probably still being fed by the parents. It also helps to free up the nest for the hen and prevents her having to begin laying with a nest of reluctant to leave chicks who may play soccer with the new eggs. Here is a picture of 2 young chicks who I put into their bowl today. They are a bit younger than normal, but it is so hot here at the moment that my reason for booting them out was also for some respite from the heat. This is simply a dog bowl purchased in Woolies. You can see that the deep side walls prevent them escaping until they've grown quite a bit more. The deep dish also means less husks being spread around. Only downside to this arrangement is making sure the seed remains clean so it means having smaller quantities of seed available in the bowl than I normally would so wastage is minimised. Well, once again this turned into an epic. I hope you may have perhaps picked up something useful from the above rant. Cheers Daryl

Kaz, at a guess the reason they have taken to them may be the molasses content. We used to have guinea pigs and different brands had varying quantities of molasses. The guinea pigs soon showed a preference to the ones with more molasses which were sweeter. Don't know if budgies have a sweet tongue but that may be a reason.

Just me spending a little too much time on this forum The Kahlua reference was just a lucky guess that fitted in with the story. 40% eh, may have to fit that into the minutes somehow!

Only one day to the big YF convention. I wonder if this is how it's events will be recorded.................... Minutes Of The WA BBC Forum – The Great Yellowface Convention The WA members' BBS Forum convention kicked off at midday on Sunday 22nd Nov 2009 and was attended by Kaz, Nubbly, Rip, Renee, Jack Daniels, Johnny Walker and The Bundy Bear. The first point of order before commencing the formalities was ensuring the fridge was well stocked. It was at this point that Rip announced she’d brought along a stocked 500 litre fridge on the back of a ute which she’d backed up beside the outdoor meeting area. Nubbly thanked Rip for this generous gesture and proposed a toast to show her gratitude which all present responded to and the first drink was downed. Next agenda item was the Great Yellowface Debate. Rip showed her knowledge of the Yellowface variety by comparing the yellow of the Bundy label to that of a Goldenface and then pouring drinks of Bundy and Dry at different dilutions to represent the Yellow Face Mutants 1 and 2. Rip then asked the bartender for the day, Nubbly, to quickly prepare a bucket of Kahlua and milk and this was used to represent the YF Mutant 1 DF. All agreed this was an excellent analogy and, after drinking the Mutants 1 and 2 and the YF Mutant 1 DF, Rip was thrown into the pool for being a smarty pants. The next item was one which has frustrated BBC forum members for quite some time: the inability of Renee’s camera to even take one in focus photograph. Kaz and Nubbly took about half an hour and 3 drinks showing Renee how to use the camera at which point Renee was asked to show what she’d learned. She responded by taking an out of focus shot of the ute. At this point the other forum members had had enough and threw her into the pool, camera and all. After Renee exited the pool, all members had another drink and it was found that the focus on Renee’s camera had remarkably improved. The next item for discussion was to determine how many drinks all members had now had. Nobody was quite sure so they all had 2 more and called it an even dozen. Kaz then presented the Yellowface she’d brought along for discussion. After much discussion all agreed that the bird was a Yellowface Greywing Spangle Opaline Tripled Breasted Mattress Thrasher. As punishment for mixing so many varieties Kaz was then thrown into the pool and rescued by the on-duty lifeguard who was wearing, of course, red budgie smugglers. After a few more drinks and some wild "back of the ute" dancing it was now 3PM. Nubbly showed that her well earned drinking reputation from the Nats a few years back was fair dinkum as she was now the only one still awake. As she was also the only one still dry she thought it only fitting that she should throw herself into the pool. Three times. Each time to be rescued by a muscly Mr Red Budgie Smugglers. The meeting closed at 4 PM and, upon awakening the next day, all agreed that it had been a very informative meeting and that many issues had been resolved and the next meeting was scheduled for 2010 to be held at GB’s House Of Smirnoff.