Daryl

If Dave doesn't want him be prepared for an influx of PM's :baby:

How 'bout Lola? She walked up to me and she asked me to dance, I asked her her name and in a dark brown voice, She said, "Lola. El-Oh-El-Aye, Lola, Lo-Lo-Lo-Lo-Lola. Still think that's one nice looking hen you have there Dave. And it's still damn hard to tell.

I've had a few with "ambiguous" ceres this year and they all turned out to be hens. You'll know for sure in a few weeks.

WHOAH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :fear Can the name Holy Cr@p be used again? I mean, c'mon, how 'bout Holy Freakin Cr@p!

Sounds promising so far. I did confirm via email that Heathrow was right in that the SQ team were affected as they gorged themselves on the lucerne when they were not used to it in their diet. Renee, in regards to the older birds not eating all of the pellets, this is exactly what I've found with the bird pellets. But that is fairly typical of feeding budgies, the young ones will give most things a go whereas the older ones are more set in their dietary patterns. Sounds like us actually Also, Renee and Kaz, you're both using the WPI, how are you feeding it to your birds and how much do you give them? I guess in some sort of soft mix.

Yes, if it's a type 1 Dk Grn/Bl (ie dk factor linked to green) then you will get Olives but few Mauves. Consequently if it's a type 2 DkGrn/Bl (ie dark factor linked to blue) then you will get Mauves but very few Olives. As CB9 says, just put them together and see what happens as you don't know what type you have yet. The few Olives I've seen at auction have brought a decent price even if not outstanding in quality so there is a reasonable demand for them due to their usefulness in breeding varieties enhanced by the dark factor. Of course it's easier to breed double dark factor if you already have some.

Aside from the fact that you're not supposed to get Normals from your pair, have you ever gotten a dark factor bird from this line, or more specifically, from either of the parents? I ask this because if you haven't then it would seem likely that an egg or chick somehow got moved seeing as the chick is also Cobalt. Your note that she looks like the siblings may mean you have in fact thrown something that shouldn't happen. I've only had that once (a looong time ago) when I put a Grey cock with a Light Green hen and one of the chicks was a Cinnamon Light Green cock. I too would have thought I'd moved an egg, but all the chicks from this pair had a very distinctive stance and half moon spots, something none of my other birds at the time had. So it can happen.

Good job Kaz with "Dave's Xmas present". She sure looks nice.

I'll second that, it's been like someone left the bathroom door open with the shower running! Luckily I wrapped up my breeding last weeks so all birds are out of nests now. Just spent a bit of time with the hose on "mist" and they sem to love it. I like the idea of using ice cubes in the water as mentioned earlier. Might have to give that a try over the holidays.

Only just found this thread. Have fun Liv on the bird buying spree. Looks like you've gotten off to a flyer with Gary's birds. Might pay to tip the Jetstar baggage handlers on the return trip and say, "Lose these birds and you'll have 007 to deal with".

Correct, the BES as we know it now was well and truly establised before importation. But I also believe Yellows with suffusion have been around before importation too as I bred one in 1973. Parents were an Aus YF and a Greywing Light Green. One of the chicks was way too light to be a Greywing but nowhere near clean enough for the Blackeye class of the day. Others also had them besides myself and they were often exhibited in the BE class with little success.

I reckon this is the answer. We have given variety names to all of the obvious traits but we do not formally recognise other more subtle differences. If you have a look at the normal winged birds in your aviary you will see some that are very dark in the wings, some quite light and some in between (best to only look at the hens for this as some split Cinnamon cocks can appear lighter). You can call it natural variance if you want, or, you can explain it as the effect of a darkening gene (or absence of a lighteneing gene). So, the lack of recognition of this variance has lead to these varieties being defined as separate mutations. But are they really?

I think the assessments of your birds given above are pretty spot on and also the advice given by Macka to seek out your club members. However, with that in mind the birds you cull will be dependant upon: 1. The number you have decided you require to breed/show/fill the aviary etc., and 2. The standard you have set for yourself (ie where you "set the bar" for your stud in regards show quality). If you were to cull to the standand of a champion breeder you might not have any birds left! This is really a subjective thing and as we improve the quality of our birds hopefully the bar is raised to allow the disposal of better birds. Finally, as a general guide, keep LOTS of hens and only the VERY BEST cocks.

Looking way into the future but I reckon the above 2 would make a fantastic pairing for next year. She's got dark markings, great wings, shoulder, length and feather. He's got the top end, shoulder and feather. Both very nice.

Agree with Dave, she is very nice. But what no one has said yet, it's a top photo of her.

I wont be cooking the *** outa the chicken thats for sure. I may just stick to the whey protein powder and egg powder. Its doing the trick anyway, Is this too much cooking? The Colonel usually does my chicken.

What an eye opener Kaz :rofl: Thank you for posting that information :rofl: I was curious about whether or not cooking altered protein so I did some research. Interesting about the cooking effect. Although the article was in regards to humans, the gist of it was that protein should be taken in minimal amounts! I guess if you look long enough you can find an argument to support just about any side you care to take. It all adds up to even more confusion...... What is your plan on using the additional protein after reading that article?

Actually I do this too. I have Percy (L & F Percy), Henry (Henry George), AK (Alan Kent) and Dan (Dan McMahon).

This is the golden question. Given the pellet manufacturers use around 15-20% protein, if we are to supplement an extra source of protein, how much is optimal before they get too much and results decline or birds experience problems due to excess? And further, even if we feed a very high protein content food the amount of protein taken in per bird will vary greatly and be proportional to the amount eaten. Some birds go nuts over soft food and the like whilst others stick almost exclusively to the dry seed bowl. One way to work this out would be to feed a group of birds a single feed where the protein content is known (pellets would be ideal for this). They would get NO extras as the varying consumption of such would render this research invalid. To this single food source a known quantity of say a protein powder is added and then the protein level recalculated. You would then need to establish a number of groups of birds and feed each group a diet of different protein from the next over say a breeding season. The birds would ideally be related and so similar in size, temperament and features. What we are trying to do is remove all the variables which are generally present in our setup. Each group would also need close monitoring for early signs that their level is too extreme so that no birds were harmed. Now, I don't know anyone who's got enough time/money/birds to try something like this. So for now we rely on others (especially on this forum) to post of their experiences suggesting how the use of "such and such" supplement has improved size or feather growth and how much they used. And we hope and trust that the amounts used are correct and optimal. I will cite a personal example of how too much of a good thing can be dangerous. Back when I bred budgies as a kid there were very little of actual supplements available for bird breeders. Medications were based on those used for poultry and very hit and miss. At the time many top breeders advocated the use of soluble baby vitamins (ie Pentavite, Abidec etc) in the drinking water as a supplement. The suggested dosage was just a few drops per drinker if I recall. So, being young and eager I got to thinking that "more must be better" and gradually upped the dosage. Within 3 weeks a few nests of young chicks were going "red and rubbery" and I lost a few. I quickly removed the vitamin supplement and the problems stopped. Of course most of us now know that vitamin toxicity can occur, but hey, I was only 13. So my advice: remember to stick to the dosage rate! So Renee, to answer your question, ummm....... is LOTS an answer? :rofl: It kind of comes back to what most of us have been saying all along: keep variety in the diet to cover as many bases as possible.

I keep 150+ birds. And I name mine either Keeper or Cull!. I'm similar to nubbly i know the breeding of most of my birds without looking up their records. Same here but I only have around 50 so it's not that hard to remember them all. Some of mine have names as I encourage the kids to name the ones I think will remain for a couple of years. And it's a way to get them involved.

Just one word of caution: if you are withholding water try to make sure that the med you are doing this with has a reasonably high safety margin as they may drink more than usual. I lost a bird years ago with a levamisole based wormer. I didn't even withhold water, this bird was just a big drinker!

Testing clear after this trip is actually a really good sign for the breeders mentioned here as the stress of travel from WA to Vic would surely cause the birds to beginning shedding any dormant disease. Budgies like to have a drink first thing in the morning. If I want them to drink I will remove their water late in the afternoon and replace it a few hours after dawn the next day. They drink straight away.

Yes....its the best kind I wish you would have mentioned that Muscle XL was a whey protein isolate and not whey protein in the beginning. Would have saved a lot of discussion. I also coudn't find mention of this at the link at the horse shop where you buy it nor after a few more google searches. However I guess we have all learnt something from it and as you mentioned a few pages back this has been somewhat of a fact finding mission. I'll have to ask my pellet reseller what he thinks of lactose free whey protein isolate. On the face of it I reckon it'd be okay pending any further input from him. KAZ, you're not gunna believe this but we used to get a heap of dried lucerne in guess what? Dried guinea pig food It also contained rolled oats, pressed corn and, you guessed it, guinea pig pellets.

Is there evidence to support this statement such as a vet diagnosis or is it heresay ? Reason I ask is that the airtravel alone involved in getting birds to the nationals, ( in some cases two plane trips for some of these birds going to Tassie ) added to the fact all birds are in together with other team birds they have never lived with ( NO quarantine as is the normal practice ) and the known fact that a lot of birds that go to the Nationals get sick either there or on their return.STRESS, TRAVEL, CONFINEMENT, OTHER BIRDS POSSIBLY CARRIERS OF ILLNESS, NO QUARANTINE, CHANGE OF FOOD.....Tell me these things arent a part of a bird getting sick going to the Nationals.You're quite right in that it could have been any of those factors involved. I only have the information second hand as it was passed on at a club presentation night on the Tassie Nats. If Daz is around he may be able to add to this as he was there and I think he may have mentioned something about it once before. If the lucerne was truly the culprit for sick birds then wouldnt all the Nationals birds get sick not just ones from one team in one holding cage ? I think the SEQ team may have been the first penned. Again, will need someone else to confirm the details.

http://www.budgerigars.co.uk/general/tonkbfl.html cereal strawpowdered limestone ( calcium)dicalcium phosphate ( mainly used as a dietary supplement in prepared breakfast cereals, dog treats, enriched flour, and noodle products. )saltmethionine http://www.vitaminstuff.com/methionine.htmlcholine http://www.enc-online.org/factsheet/Choline.pdfvitaminstrace mineralsNO MOLASSES http://www.birdhealth.com.au/bird/budgie/feeding.htmlbird pellet ingredients http://www.artemisaviary.com/pellet.htmlPS I didrnt read the side of a packet.....I went straight to the detailed ingredient source material on file from the manufacturer. Thanks for getting the contents Kaz and the posted links. The diet fed by Ray Podger is quite a different balance again. The link with all the pellet ingredients listed by manufacturer is very interesting. Too bad they didn't include our Australian ones too. I have made a comparison of the Small Bird pellets I use, the American pellets link above and the Guinea Pig pellets ingredients you've listed above to highlight some differences which can be derived from the info we have at hand. The Guinea Pig pellets are listed first. 1. Protein 18% - a little bit higher than the Small Bird pellets but still within the range of the American pellets linked. 2. Fibre 22%. This is about 5 times higher than the Small Bird pellets. The link you posted to pellets contents has a crude fibre % range of 2-8% with most around 4-5%. Probably a bit too high. 3. Salt 1% - This is almost 7 times higher than the Small Bird Pellets and 5 times higher than the highest listed pellet in the link. 4. Calcium 0.06% - this is 10 times less than the calcium content of the Small Bird pellets (at 0.6%). The linked pellets contain a range of 0.3% to 1.2%. The magnitude of this range can be explained by the fact that the pellet list is for a variety of birds of different sizes. And manufacturers differing opinions 5. Phosphorus 0.2% - this is about 3 times less than the average content of the linked pellets. I don't know the phosphorus content of the Small Bird pellets. So, there appears to be a fair difference in the balance of the nutrients listed above. However, the bird pellet mixes are primarily developed as a complete feed. Since none of us is using any type of pellet as a complete feed perhaps small quantities of the Guinea Pig pellets may be okay. As you know I'd prefer to use the one developed for birds. The NO MOLASSES part made me laugh. As I said earlier, the guinea pigs we used to have would turn their nose up at any pellets NOT containing lots of molasses, yet the birds love it Go figure. Is there evidence to support this statement such as a vet diagnosis or is it heresay ? Reason I ask is that the airtravel alone involved in getting birds to the nationals, ( in some cases two plane trips for some of these birds going to Tassie ) added to the fact all birds are in together with other team birds they have never lived with ( NO quarantine as is the normal practice ) and the known fact that a lot of birds that go to the Nationals get sick either there or on their return.STRESS, TRAVEL, CONFINEMENT, OTHER BIRDS POSSIBLY CARRIERS OF ILLNESS, NO QUARANTINE, CHANGE OF FOOD.....Tell me these things arent a part of a bird getting sick going to the Nationals.You're quite right in that it could have been any of those factors involved. I only have the information second hand as it was passed on at a club presentation night on the Tassie Nats. If Daz is around he may be able to add to this as he was there and I think he may have mentioned something about it once before.