Help!

[Erin 0]

Can anybody help me out? I don' have access to avian vet til monday.

Georgie puffed out this morning and lethargic compared to normal.

I had substituted a new food 3 days ago which I now changed back.

He is looking less puffy (is in hospital cage, quarantined now) and is still eating, but now is vibrating slightly and HIS POOS LOOK TERRIBLE. Some are too black with very little urine portion. 3 new ones are this very unusual beige colour. They seem runny/mushy... I am very worried

 

I bought a broad spectrum antibiotic, but wanted to change his food first and see if that was the problem....could this possibly be simply due to the fact that he did not like the food? (I bought the a moult/stress variety because the other one is moulting). Should I give the antibiotic? This has all come up very suddenly and for 5 years he's been very healthy.

 

Any help would be very appreciated.

[maesie 0]

First things first, I'm sorry to hear about this. Hospital cage and quarintine is excellent. Also add a desk lamp with a 40w globe for warmth. You can also cover him so it's dark and quiet. When changing food you you always do it slowly... a little of each and slowly change proportions. Sometimes a food change can explain the poo, but this sounds a little more than that. I'm not sure about giving him the antibiotic... wait for another more experiences member to reply. But at this stage I'd be taking him to the Avian Vet on monday if things don't improve. Good luck and please keep us updated.

[**Liv** 0]

Oh dear

 

Firstly get a light on him 25-40watts to keep him warm.

 

Can you please explain the change of diet further; What he was eating before, what you changed it too, was it a 100% diet change etc.

[Erin 0]

Thanks so much to both of you for responding, I've been biting my nails here...he was on a fortified seed diet (Kay-Tee) and I stupidly completely substituted something called Avilac Stress, also seed but with increased protein (powder form). I gave it tothem 3 days ago, and then never really noticed when I dumped and refilled how much, if any, they had eaten. Then today I gave them each a sprig of millet and switched them back to their regular seed, and they both chowed down, now the other bird's poos are slightly green, but basically okay, whereas Georgie, the sick one, his look like diarrhea and a few of them are almost completely black....also with the shivering/vibrating - that's abnormal, isn't it? I've never seen him do that unless he's really hot. He's subdued, but hasn't stopped eating. Singing a bit, but nothing compared to normal...I have had the lamp and blanket on as well all day with him, and he looks a little less puffed out than this morning...Any advice/thoughts as to what could be happenig?????

Thanks in advance

[maesie 0]

You are doing everything you can at the moment. I'm not sure what is going on, but you are right, the fluffed up and shivering is not normal. Check his bottom and breast bone. Are they dirty and sharp? Maybe he has been sick for a little while and the stress of new seed has brought it out?

[**Liv** 0]

It would most definitely be the diet change

 

Did they actually eat the new food??? They are acting like birds who haven't eaten for a few days.

Have their poops been a spinach green colour and very runny recently??

Edited June 22, 2008 by **Liv**

[Erin 0]

Hi again: Thanks for responding...

 

Maisie, his vent is fine. I haven't checked his breastbone yet..

 

Liv, It is quite possible that they haven't eaten...this was what suspected first when I saw him this morning...I wasn't checking carefully enough - I just dump their bowls out and refill...also with the protein powder it was harder to see what was husk and what still seed.

 

okay given the difference of opinion being expressed here, i am going to upload pooo pictures give me a minute or 2

Edited June 22, 2008 by Erin

[**Liv** 0]

I am not disagreeing with Maesie - we just keep posting at the same time

Edited June 22, 2008 by **Liv**

[maesie 0]

I am not disagreeing with Maesie - we just keep posting at the same time

 

I'm not disagreeing with Liv either... lol... It's hard to say. I'm not expert though, just my opinion. If after some time and plenty of good food (original seed, fresh veggies etc...) he improves, perhaps if was the diet change, if things aren't getting better, I'd be thinking some underlying issue. Again though, it's up to you. If you're still worried, take him to the vet. Atleast this would give you peace of mind.

[Erin 0]

 

Ta-da! POO.

It's not yellow as it looks here, but beige.

What do you think???? I know you're not diagnosing, just appreciate any thoughts....I'm desperate up here in northern ontario...

[**Liv** 0]

I feel it is the diet change as their little systems get stressed very easily .

 

Diet changes cause forced heavy moults and lots of stress - I sadly experienced this 2 months ago when i (stupidly) changed my birds seed mix brand I didn't change anything else in their diet, just the BRAND of seed and my aviary went into meltdown for about 6 weeks It was HORRIBLE - no birds were lost, but the poor guys were so stressed and may lost all the feathers on their foreheads and I had to pull broken blood feathers galore. - not nice ;(

 

 

Do they have such an elaborate diet for any health reasons???

 

All budgies need for good health is a quality seed mix and selection of fresh fruit and veggies each day .

 

 

Edit.. RE PPPPPOOOP

 

Hmmmm... I have never seen poop like that before... let me look into it

Edited June 22, 2008 by **Liv**

[**KAZ** 0]

The antibiotic works to get their poos back to solids after really runny poos and only as a stop gap till you see the vet. I am sure you have realised at this point that the sudden diet change was not a good idea, so we wont bash your ears over that one. EVERYONE makes mistakes when they are trying to do their best for their birds.

Sounds like they havent eaten and that has caused some gastro intestinal stress in George in particular.

Try for the future, to use basic seed blends without additives at all and create your own extras with fresh fruit and vegies.

Might still be a good idea to get them to the vets as soon as you can, but for now basic seed and fresh water and see what comes with that

[**Liv** 0]

Great advice Kaz

I have seen green runny poop before, so is the yellow/beige poop even runnier runny poop????

[**KAZ** 0]

I would recommend some Triple C in the water for a day or two.

[Erin 0]

The antibiotic works to get their poos back to solids after really runny poos and only as a stop gap till you see the vet. I am sure you have realised at this point that the sudden diet change was not a good idea, so we wont bash your ears over that one. EVERYONE makes mistakes when they are trying to do their best for their birds.

 

 

Kaz, thank you so much....yes, I really did a stupid thing. It's not the first, either. Poor things. So you would say yes, go ahead with the antibiotic??? An what is the Triple C you referred to??

 

Maisie: Thanks for sharing your story about switching the foood, it is helping me see what a tremendous impact that can have on these little babes.

Edited June 22, 2008 by Erin

[**KAZ** 0]

The antibiotic works to get their poos back to solids after really runny poos and only as a stop gap till you see the vet. I am sure you have realised at this point that the sudden diet change was not a good idea, so we wont bash your ears over that one. EVERYONE makes mistakes when they are trying to do their best for their birds.

 

 

Kaz, thank you so much....yes, I really did a stupid thing. It's not the first, either. Poor things. So you would say yes, go ahead with the antibiotic??? An what is the Triple C you referred to??

 

Maisie: Thanks for sharing your story about switching the foood, it is helping me see what a tremendous impact that can have on these little babes.

Triple C is one of the better antibiotics...its in powder form. But you can use any of the sulpha meds for now...Sulpha D, sulpa Q, sulpha remedy etc.

[Erin 0]

Triple C is one of the better antibiotics...its in powder form. But you can use any of the sulpha meds for now...Sulpha D, sulpa Q, sulpha remedy etc.

 

 

Got it, thanks again....you've been lifesavers. I'll update in the a.m.!

[**KAZ** 0]

The warm lamp is essential

[maesie 0]

The antibiotic works to get their poos back to solids after really runny poos and only as a stop gap till you see the vet. I am sure you have realised at this point that the sudden diet change was not a good idea, so we wont bash your ears over that one. EVERYONE makes mistakes when they are trying to do their best for their birds.

 

 

Kaz, thank you so much....yes, I really did a stupid thing. It's not the first, either. Poor things. So you would say yes, go ahead with the antibiotic??? An what is the Triple C you referred to??

 

Maisie: Thanks for sharing your story about switching the foood, it is helping me see what a tremendous impact that can have on these little babes.

 

It does have a massive impact, but don't beat yourself up over it too much. As Kaz said, everyone makes mistakes. It is good though that you are watching them and are quick to act.

[Guest lonebudgie]

Gday Erin , you have received so good advice, the extra heat and antibiotics will help till you see the vet .

Black droppings are a sign of not eating and the brown/orangey droppings are a sign of salmonella, Try just feeding normal seed with no additives as I see you have only two birds you dont need to give them protein additives , just stick to seed , water and the usual vegies that the birds love and will have no problems .

Goodluck .

[Guest DrNat]

Another useful tip to give your sick bird an energy boost is to put a bit of glucodin powder in the water before administering any medications.

If the bird is too weak and low energy to start with and it's internal organs are damaged by disease (in this case the gastrointestinal tract hence diarrhoea), the stress of medications may be too much for it.

[**Liv** 0]

I normally use raspberry cordial for gastro in my birds - the real stuff with +20% of pure raspberry concentrate.

It gives them a boost of energy and helps with the symptoms while clearing the bacteria from the gut Dose = 20ml of cordial to 1L of water daily until symptoms clear.

 

 

How is he doing??? any improvement/change??

[Andrew 0]

i was just wondering as Bings poos are also the same colour as Georges, but Bings are more soild but still not completly solid, could this be a problem?

[Sailorwolf 0]

Black poos are apparently a sign that the birds have not eaten in a while. Green poos mean stress I think and not eating as well? Not 100% sure on those.

Make sure they have plenty of water. Diarrhoea if that is what it is can really dehydrate them. Keep them warm. I would definitely have a go with the raspberry cordial as this will at least give them some glucose.

I'm a little skeptical of the antibiotics, because if it is diarrhoea antibiotics can be good and then bad as they kill all bacteria even the good ones. I'll just look at my pharmacology notes...

Give him some water with sugar. Don't make it too concentrated or this could dehydrate him more. If you are unsure just give him water.

Direct quote from my notes:" Antibiotics are nearly always contraindicated in gut disease but are often used in veterinary practice"

"if injudiciously used will complicate recovery from diarrhoea" "Additional adverse effects of antibiotics include vaious side effects such as anorexia, vomiting, and iatrogenic diarrhoea that can confuse the clinical picture and delay recovery" This is because antibiotics result in changes in the intestinal microflora and can lead to overgrowths of undesirable bacteria causing further irritation. Thus antibiotics should only be given to an animal with diarrhoea if the exact pathogen is known. I'll just have a look back at the pictures and see if I can tell what it is (diarrhoea is easy to confuse with polyuria in birds and I am not so experienced in that area yet).

 

It's hard to tell from the picture. Is the faecal part runny? Or is there just a lot of clear liquid (the urine) around the faeces causing it to be gooey? Are the faeces( don't count the whole dropping just the faecal part) liquid or do they still have a form to them?

Diarrhoea is when the feaces and urates and urine all mixes up and forms one gooey brown mess. Look at a very fresh one, because in that picture I can't tell whether the "water" surrounding the poo is on the paper or has been soaked into the paper from the faeces.

 

In either case, he is losing a lot of fluid so make sure he is getting a lot of fluid to drink. Maybe a sports drink might be a good idea (but only if it is isosmotic).

Edited June 22, 2008 by Sailorwolf

[Erin 0]

I'm a little skeptical of the antibiotics, because if it is diarrhoea antibiotics can be good and then bad as they kill all bacteria even the good ones. I'll just look at my pharmacology notes...

Give him some water with sugar. Don't make it too concentrated or this could dehydrate him more. If you are unsure just give him water.

Direct quote from my notes:" Antibiotics are nearly always contraindicated in gut disease but are often used in veterinary practice"

"if injudiciously used will complicate recovery from diarrhoea" "Additional adverse effects of antibiotics include vaious side effects such as anorexia, vomiting, and iatrogenic diarrhoea that can confuse the clinical picture and delay recovery" This is because antibiotics result in changes in the intestinal microflora and can lead to overgrowths of undesirable bacteria causing further irritation. Thus antibiotics should only be given to an animal with diarrhoea if the exact pathogen is known.

 

Hi Sailorwolf, Liv, DrNat, Kaz and Maesie: Thank you so much for your replies...wow I am amazed at how supportive you have all been with information. I, too, was leery of immediately giving antibiotics without knowing what the problem was. I like the raspberry cordial idea. I will definitely keep some on hand, I'm thinking a health food store may havea purer variety than what's usually available in grocery stores up here.

 

Well.... kept the lamp on him in his hospital cage all night back to regular food, and was awoken by the beautiful sound of Georgie chirping away sounding much more like his norml happy little self. And, even better....HIS POOS LOOK WAY BETTER! I was going to get another snap for further analysis but they are approaching normal: solid, balanced, perhaps a little dehydrated looking. So now I am spraying them with lots of water (which they prefer to drinking out of their little tubes), and am going to just do this very frequently today and monitor closely. I do feel Georgie is "out of the woods" and back to his crazy antics with high energy! Yeah!!!! :fear I am so so so grateful to all of you for your help with this, I could hardly sleep last night!