nubbly5

Noooooooooooooooooooooo....... that means I have to deal with Photobucket again.........<sob>.

To me it looks like a Cinnamon Grey Recessive Pied Cock but flash photos make it hard. I would pitch for the possibility of opaline too just looking at the tail.

Thought you might like to see some of my BES's. I had one cock for a while and bred cinnamon splits from him and then in 2008 bred 1 BES hen. In 2009 I bought a hen that came 5th at the 2008 Nats along with a couple cocks and since they have bred really well and I now have over 20 of the suckers. 2 from this year are looking very promising from the whole 1 pair that I put down to breed. So here they are for your viewing pleasure! This fellow is just starting to moult and is a bit wet as he was getting some show box training (when the ping pong balls alone don't work I put water under them!!!!!) And this is his full sister from the following round. So Linda, there ARE plenty to choose from! And also if she is carrying cinnamon (you could test mate her to a cinnamon cock to find out) then pairing her to greywing would mean the cocks would all be split cinnamon but you could keep the hens as they would not be carrying cinnamon.

Gee sorry about that Linda! I've been having a bad couple of days obviously and I only just noticed the /recessive pied written as plain as day....... Doh - again!!!!! Still I'm not sure I would use her in rec pieds with all her lovely combination of varieties. I agree with you about the bird itself though and how interesting it is to look at - it's a shame that breeding show birds doesn't promote experimentation like this. Using opaline hens isn't as bad as opaline cocks but you need to be aware that all the cocks you breed from them will be split opaline. It's okay if you know where it is but it does waste some time breeding it out. I think your plan is fine and you could breed half sisters (from the greywing hen & dilute hen to the greywing cock) to pair back to dad and then put the progeny from them together. It just takes longer. The cocks will all be split for opaline so pairing them to normals will mean that a proportion of them will also be opaline so I would steer clear of that coz you will lose track of where that opaline goes.

Doh! I didn't even look at that......... That was a bit dumb. To use with recessives???? Not that I breed recessives so don't call me any expert there. She's a nice hen though and considering she is a she then the opaline is easier to deal with. Just keep hens from her and not the cocks.

169. When seed husk down the bra is a normal part of everyday life. 170. The top of the wazza vacuum cleaner you buy is for the birdroom but the clapped out thing that never gets used anyway is for the house. 171. When every show date, judges meeting, auction and Nationals are placed onto the wall planner before family birthdays and public holidays.

Cool!!! I just snuck off with Grant's Carona Lemons to try....... snh snh snh!

Lemons! I use oranges but who would have thought that budgies like lemons!!! I guess they can't screw up their beaks

Recently tried chicken carcass in the flights. Birds didn't really choose to eat it but the ANTS did. Not sure that it's worth the effort for me if I can barley leave it out for a couple of hours, have the birds not really like it much and then just attract a whole neighbourhood of ants. The eggs ALA Gary Armstrong remain the favourite! Boil, pick a little hole in the egg, put egg whole into flight and watch budgies have fun! I know that's not strickly meat protien but then that's the best I'm going to do.

And that's coz there isn't a seperate mutation! I found in Dr Terry Martins Book - Part 1, pg 67 a couple of photo's with this caption: Above: Comparative photograph of the Dilute Budgerigar (L) and the version commonly exhibited which is actually a Cinnamon Dilute ®. Oh and guess what the photos show??? A dilute and a BES. Sorry Renee but CB started the off topic and you know I can't resist the thrown down glove! But more on topic! Gerald Bink's does have a section on it in his Challenge on Page 144. He talks about the Dark Green/blue as Type 1 and the Light Green/Cobalt as the Type 2. Due to the dark factor being associated with either the green or the blue gene. When these genes are rearranged in subsequent breeding the outcomes change. Pity he has not got an expectations table that I can copy coz stuff it if I'm going to sit down and calculate it out!

Well it kind of depends how good a bird it is and if it does or does not have cinnamon. BES are generally a lesser variety as they are continually selected for reduced suffusion and less wing markings but diltues of strong quality are handy for breeding greywings or clearwings. If it's got cinnamon though it's not a great idea to put her into them then as cinnamon is not acceptable in these varieties. Really though, a good bird is a good bird regardless of variety sometimes so make an assessment on her quality compared to the rest of your flock and if she is good enough maybe slot her into some normals or cinnamons - remembering that the resulting babies will be split for BES (or dilute and maybe also cinnamon for the cocks). If you want a go at BES let me know as I'm sure I can find a nice partner for her out of my stack load of the things (they breed like flies!!!!!).

Oooh my word there is a lot of very complex and in depth stuff on that forum but some stuff I trolled up this morning...... "From practical experience with greywings, clearwings and dilutes over 30 years, there is actually some slight codominance between greywing and dilute but it is only subtle and cannot be used reliably for indentification because of other contributing factors. The greywing dilute combination (most commonly called Greywing/Dilute) does in fact look basically like any greywing, however the body colour is marginally paler than the average homozygous greywing and the tail feathers are also paler than the average homozygous greywing. These marginally paler birds are occasionally incorrectly called heavily suffused dilutes. The added complication with all greywing, clearwing and dilute budgerigars is that they are all very susceptible to outside modifier genes. This is especially noticeable in dilutes where even birds in the same nest can vary from bright body colouration to dull suffused colouration and also heavy grey markings to almost absent markings. There appears to be AT LEAST 2 modifiers involved, probably even more is likely. Body colour and wing pattern seem to be modified independently, however i have seen both occur at once and this is not known whether this is a combined effect or a third modifier. Irrespective of the possible cause, these visual variations do occur in dilutes. They are also seen in clearwings and to a lesser degree in greywings. So as well as looking at the interaction between heterozygous multiple allele birds which may have codominant "blending" of characteristics, we have these additional modifiers as well also modifying the same characteristics. The old fashioned term Full Body Coloured Greywing also needs to be pensioned off as well. It was originally used to identify the Greywing Clearwing combination. However thanks to all these other modifiers it is now quite common to breed homozygous greywings having full body colour which have NO clearwing makeup at all. Finally another complication, is that from my own experience, greywings quite often get subtly darker in wing markings and body colour in old age (several years) compared to their earlier younger (but still adult) colouration." Ken Yorke And something probably a little more close to the mark: "This is purely my opinion based on my observations of the birds being bred in Australia, it is still possible that another clearwing multiple allele is present. Some people in Australia (not myself) also believe that there is 2 dilute alleles (one English and one Australian) I suspect that modifier genes are the most likely scenario that are involved in all cases of greywing, clearwing and dilute colour variation." Ken Yorke I have asked the questions Peter and if I get an answer, I will post but I will bow to Ken Yorke's superior knowledge of budgie genetics and varieity.

There was as much published about clearwings with pure white wings coming from Australia and the English ones being different but they are still clearwings - not much difference to what you are saying about blackeyed selfs just that they are still acknowledged to be the same variety. Also in my first breeding season with clearwings I bred these funny looking birds that for all the world looked like dilute clearwings - now at least I hope we can agree on the fact that dilute and clearwing are on the same allele and that clearwing is dominant to dilute. So I was absolutley stumpted as to how come I now had these clearwing dilutes. After much discussion with quite a number of different people, along with many photos being exhanged, it was finally explained to me that due to the many years of selection my clearwings now carry modifyer genes which clean up the wing markings, these genes are also inherited in dilutes bred from the clearwings (they were obviously split for dilute) giving you a dilute but one that has the same wing marking modifyer genes as the clearwings. Not a new variety at all but just a dilute - but hey they LOOKED different. Oh and by the way, Dr Terry Martin is an Australian Author, I think still based in Sydney. His research into parrot mutation genetics was based on info from Australia, Europe, South Africa, North America and Asia. Nicely his information is not just based on budgerigar theory but based on mutations found commonly right through the parrot world (including budgerigars of course). Ooh apparently he has a yahoo group for parrot genetics discussion too........ Nubbly scurries off to have a look.

Wow Linda - those Albie babies are very nice!!!!

Very good plan Linda! And probably close to the ratio of cocks to hens that you want.

It's no mystery - the other diluted variety is called a blackeyed self!A bit more stuff found at http://www.anbc.iinet.net.au/downloads/C&a...0Budgerigar.pdf"The Yellow mutationThe existence of the yellow mutation causes the picture to become confused. The "buttercup" Yellow was well established before the importation of birds from England occurred in the 1990's. Among the offspring of the imported birds Suffused birds appeared that were not pure Yellow, nor were they true Greywings. Breeders who bred excellent examples of these Suffused birds looked for classes in which they could be exhibited. The result was that some were shown as Black Eyed Self Colours and others were shown as Greywings. Their strength in type and size made them quite successful in spite of their poor varietal features.The Australian Standard includes recognition of two forms of Yellow and White- the Black Eyed Self Colour and the Suffused Yellow or White (which includes Grey Yellow and Grey White). This is recognition that many excellent Suffused birds are being bred and provides some protection for the breeders of the other varieties. The Suffused bird does not meet the Standard for either Black Eyed Self or Greywing and poses a threat to their integrity. We do not want to see the loss of the pure Yellow bird, nor do we wish to see dilution of the intensity of the colour and markings of Greywings."The question remains, is the blackeye the result of another allele at the "greywing" locus or is it just a dilute washed out by cinnamon? The fact that it was identified in Australia before the arrival of what we now know as dilutes tends to indicate to me that it is another variant at this already congested locus (it's a theory - not a fact).You can argue that the better examples of blackeyes are cinnamon. You can also argue that the better clearbodies and lacewings are opalines, but they don't have to be opaline to be a clearbody or lacewing. This debate started by claiming that all blackeyes are cinnamon dilutes. From what I can see the Cinnamon is optional.CheersPT Hi GB,That would be a dark eyed clear, not a blackeyed self. 2 different varieties.CheersPT Reading through A Guide to Colour Mutations & Genetics in Parrots, Dr Terry Martin - there are only diluted genes present on the allelic series of Greywing, Clearwing, Dilute - no other identified dilutes genes apart from Faded which occurs at a different allele. Have never come across any other information other than heresay stating that there are more than 3 genes in this series. Also in an interesting section on combinations he writes "The correct name for a combination of mutations is becoming an increasingly annoying problem. Many people, particularly in Europe, are reverting to using a simple combination name of the colours involved." "It is now common in Australia and other countries to use the name Silver for cinnamon blue combinations. However silver is a totally inappropriate name for a light brown and blue bird. Silver is a shade of diluted grey and that is exactly what it should be used for - Dilute Grey". Although he is not talking about BES or even budgerigars specifically here, you can draw very strong parrallels to what is happening here. We have a form of dilute that has been selected (and bred with cinnamon) to produce a cleaner clearer winged version of the same variety (or variety combination) and all of a sudden because we have given it a specific name, it becomes another mutation. Same with the confusion surrounding the Suffused Yellows/Whites and the Grey Yellows/Whites. If we managed to standardise names and name combinations then we would not need this debate. Instead what seems to occur is this - birds like clearwings & dilutes are also affected by other modifier genes which have been selected for over time (like clearwings and no suffusion - as I stated before). We all understand that there can be clearwings with clear wings and clearwings with horribly marked wings but they are still counted as clearwings. But how come when the same happens with dilutes - heavily suffused dilutes and dilutes that have been selected to have clearer wings and bodies, they suddenly become another gene on an allelic series? To make it easier to get a bird with less suffusion and little markings we have added cinnamon until the point where the majority of BES are cinnamon - so pardon me if I generalise and call the BES a cinnamon dilute as that is what, on the whole they are now. Yes I agree totally - cinnamon is optional - BUT so widely spread now that I make the generalisation that BES are a combination of dilute and cinnamon. Sorry if I skipped the bit that said you still need to select for clear body and wings and hence you lose size. And just because all us BES breeders like to use cinnamon to clean up body and wing markings, doesn't mean that if we continually do it we won't get suffusion and wing markings back but what we do do is breed cinnamon into them and then STILL need to select out the cleanest ones to pair back to each other to maintain the clear body colour and clean wings - hence why the variety is still small - JUST like breeding clearwings with clear wings actually. Suffused birds (or straight dilutes) are also useful in breeding BES as there are some rippers out there and they add less body colour and wing markings into the bird than a normal (but they still add some). You can use normals too if you really want but then you have to work harder to get the suffusion and wing markings down again. Even by doing so you are still adding more suffusion and wing markings into the BES than is called for in the standard so again you have to go back into your lower suffusion/marking population and re-pair back to them again to re-establish the clearer bird - 2 steps forward 3 steps back - JUST like in clearwing breeding. Cheers Nubbs Just read this again and it sounds a bit angry - it's not meant to be. I just get into debating stuff like this.......

Having bred them for a couple seasons now I KNOW that when I pair my purchased BES to cinnamons they breed 100% cinnamon (every single one so far has) so you could say that maybe this is pretty good evidence that even the top breeders are using cinnamon in their blackeye breeding - my stock originates from Peter Dodd and Peter Glassenbury just so you know. Enough evidence for me to make up my mind that the better examples are indeed a combination of cinnamon and dilute (or some other mystery diluted variety!). But AS I SAID PREVIOUSLY I would imagine that group of birds has also had many years of selective breeding towards clear body colour and clear markings. Sure you can try and make some but I bet all those years of selective breeding that ALSO has gone into the birds for many a year will not be there either so you would be starting from scratch again with heavier body colour and heavier markings. But sure why not. All of the BES's that have represented WA in the last couple years have been cinnamons (apart from Melborne a while ago when we sent a dilute instead as we had no BES's) and have been paired to cinnamons since. One of these birds was 5th placed too. I would also imagine that with time and patience you could slowly reduce colour and markings from dilutes just from selective breeding alone but obviously the cinnamon version is even less suffused. Have a go at them and see what I mean! It's a fun variety. He talks about breeding black eye to black eye, black eye to grey yellow, and black eye to suffused.Does anyone know specifically what he means by "grey yellow" and "suffused"? (i.e. are those types of black eyes, or types of some other mutation?)He talks like black eye is in danger of becoming extinct. That would rule out my making one by combining dilute with cinnamon. Makes it sound like Linda's bird is desperately needed in the gene pool!Finnie, there is am ongoing debate about what is a suffused yellow/white or a grey yellow/white. From what I understand this is just a confusing term for dilutes either without (suffused yellow/white) or with (grey yellow/white) grey.

My thoughts are Good book, with some minor productions issues. It focuses heavily on the health components, understandably given Rob Marshall is an avian vet. I would have like to see more aspects on the breeding of Quality Exhibition Show Budgerigars from a practical point of view, seems to be very theory based. I liked the chapters devoted to feather - I learnt a lot from this. I dont beleive its better or worse that "The Challenge", different books with different strengths for different purposes. Together they make a great combination. I'm with you on that Heathrow! I think there are a number of books which help make up a comprehensive library on budgies - this being just one of them.

No but then my budgies rarely get soft food, sometimes they do but only when I'm home. I'm away so much and rely on Grant's good will to keep my birds alive so I have had to keep it a simple as possible. They tend to get treats when I am home and this varies from fruit & veges, to soaked seeds to parrot mix. Whatever I have around or have time to do. I did try meat meal but found that the birds did not readily accept the soft food with it in, but then it may have been a "new" thing and if I started now with my babies it might be better. I think there is some good arguement for it but we really are only guessing at the amino acid profile of the diets we feed our birds. Also I would hazzard a guess that there really has been little to no work done on the nutrient requirements of our modern birds to see exactly how they might differ to the original birds - so it's all a big guess in my opinion.

Bought mine just a couple of weeks ago and had a good read through. Not bad and a useful addition to my collection already but I would not rely on this book wholey and soley for my info. I do find that he makes a lot of statements that appear to be based on heresay and not backed up by any science. Like twisted toes being a sign of genetic weakness - SHOW ME THE SCIENCE!!!!!!! Otherwise a reasonable discussion of genetic inheritance apart from clearwings and grey wings suddenly becoming sex-linked recessive......

Having worked in the agricultural industry for over 15 years much of that time working with broiler chickens I can categorically say there are NO STERIODS used in broiler chicken production. Yes antibiotics are sometimes used when illness strikes BUT WITHOLDING PERIODS are strickly adhered to. Still even though so many people still believe this rubbish, chicken remains the highest consumed protein for people - amazingly hypocritical aren't we! My little rant.