nubbly5

And you are a boy so maybe stop trying to do other things at the same time

Eeeeeeek now THAT is getting complicated.

Mum is cobalt spangle not grey green. You might be looking at the dilute in front of Dad?........................

As long as Renee doesnt cook :rofl: Oh I don't know, some people prefer scorched snags and torched steaks combined with limp lettuce and squishy tomatoes - at least you know you'll be getting good grog! okay, back on topic.I will forget the term Aussie YF Mutant II and from now on in my mind refer to them as SF Golden Faces.I am sure it has been said elsewhere, but what is the Visual difference between a SF and DF Yellow Face (is it the suffusion?) and WHAT happens if you breed YF to GF, visually and genetically?gb is ing ing ing but feels discussion will be over fine with burnt scortched lol as i am usto this salad squashed or not grog will make :fear anything look good lolas for yf and gf ren dont even do this as its just a mess to work out what you have in end but birds are pretty :hug: Keep :bliss: ing GB. Don't know about Kaz's alchol tolerance but nubbs can certainly hit the slops. Renee defiantely likes a drop or two and me, well dare I say I have been caught dancing on the back of a one tunna in the afternoon at an ag show once or twice. :fear Have you ever actually SEEN me on the slops RIP?????? There are a few WA people who MIGHT have seen me on form at a Nationals somewhere but I'll deny it coz you can't prove it........ until Sunday......!!!!! I think Goldenface does not have Mutations but YF does... and I think Goldenface is also called Australian Yellowface... Thats what I think I've learnt from this thread...Well Jimmy I'm with you on this one. But why can't we just refer to the variations as Golden Face SF and DF & Yellow Face SF and DF????? I know it's just a case of terminology but this way I for one would not get so confused and mixed up! Yep Jimmy - spot on. And Renee Golden Face SF & DF is just fine but there are 2 other types of YF commonly called mutant 1 and mutant 2 (or you could call them yf TYPE 1 and YF TYPE 2 if that makes it easier).

They are both keepers. Little rippers actually - very very nice. Fran you do sell very nice stock - can I have one please?! That grey UBC you had at the show last month will do.

If parents are not grey or grey green then the babies can't be grey green. They may well be olive by the looks of them but need a head shot to see the cheek patches.

Yar..... single factor golden face is heavily suffused. Double factor golden face is a gorgeous bird with little yellow suffusion through the body but a strong golden yellow face. I didn't read far enough. The big confusion about YF's is when you get the different versions combined and then you can have combination yf's I believe. I'm hoping RIP can clarify some of this on Sunday as I find this aspect of YF breeding the most confusing. With all 3 yf varieties, the DF version has less yellow pigment than the single factor version.

The problem has come about by one of our most prominent breeders calling a single factor australian yf (or goldenface in other words) an Aussie YF mutant 2 - bloody confusing. Really they are just referring to the single factor bird that has the very strong suffusion. It's because of that strong suffusion that WA judges in their immense wisdom decided to put the single factor aussie yf in the NSV/NSC class as it was considered that these birds were too far from the YF standard.

memememememememememememememe - I'd LOOOOOOVE to do a budgie girl barbie with all you super budgie girlies. (Gina scurries off to look at her diary). What day, what day? I have someone coming here on Saturday but I've gotta be in Perth Sunday to fly out sparrow's fart Monday morning - can bring some stuff to eat.

I don't blame you for being confused. When I asked Peter Glassenbury about where SA benches Aussie YF's he said in the YF class. I told him we put them in the NSV/NSC class and he said "As what variety or combination of varieties?" - exactly!!!!!!!!!!!! So we have a yellow face variety stuck in the NSV/NSC class.... soooooooo confusing...........!!!!!! To try and clarify for you though an Aussie YF in single factor look beautiful (blue with a strong golden face) until they moult out at which point they develop that strong aqua suffusion through the body colour. This is why they were removed from YF class as the thought was that they were not close enough to the YF class standard. HOWEVER in double factor the Aussie YF is magnificent with very little suffusion of the yellow into the blue body colour but still retaining the strong golden face. THESE you can show in the YF class. So single factor Aussie YF into the NSV/NSC class, Double factor Aussie YF okay in the YF class. Your green might be SPLIT for YF if one of her parents was potentially split YF. Her father is green so he might be split for Aussie YF having been bred from one. So he may or may not have passed on a YF gene to his daughter. She may or may not be split for YF. Remember that green, YF and blue occur on the same allele, in that order (you remember greywing, clearwing & dilute on the same allele? - well this is just the same as that). Green is domiant to YF, YF is dominant to blue. So if you breed a single factor Aussie YF (one YF gene, one blue gene) to a normal green (2 green genes) you get the chance of 50% green split YF (one green gene, one YF gene) and 50% chance of green split blue (one green gene, one blue gene). If you breed a green split for YF to a normal blue you have 50% chance of breeding greens split for blue (one green gene, one blue gene) and 50% chance of breeding single factor YF's (one YF gene, one blue gene). Does that help any?

You must have missed this question ? Alder x Kobilanski mix, The Violet Pied hen is a Kobilanski bird and the cock is the son of my original Alder Aus Mutant II bird, he looks Green Normal but maybe he isn't really. When I grabbed the UBC on Sunday I thought it was a Normal Dark Green but then 2 separate people approached me and said SHE was a YF Aussie Mutant II. :raincloud: Rubbish! As a UBC, Aussie YF's (even mutant 2) look to be yellow faced blue and it's not until they moult out that they show that strong yellow suffusion in their body colour. Your girl had not even come anywhere near breaking cap yet!!!! She is definitely a dark green NOT a YF blue. Just because a dark green shows some blue on rump and vent area DOES NOT meant it's a freaking YF. THIS is what happens when stupid judges put in stupid rules about a variety such as the Aussie yf having to be put into the NSV/NSC class. It goes completely pear shaped and people see Aussie YF lurking in every bloody variety!!!!!!! It's a damn YF why not just penalise it for heavy suffusion like every other state in Australia (Gina finishes her little rant!!!!!).

Is that another way to help beginners? :raincloud: To help make sure they stay regular?????? That's another one of the lies too: "That bran is good for you and is nice to eat" ....... (cough, cough).

this too is also what im doing i have just staeted though you are right renee in the fact that you need a bird thats through n out good chicks better than self but what i dont understand is if your keeping family's for what reason the practice of putting a bird most like its mother or most like its father (but better ) is to bring out faults so you can see what you will be dealing with if anything sometimes no faults suffice and your get superior chick its also so you can biuld one a certain birds potency for features i am with splat i breed my own out crosses this way i know exactly whats going on in my flock and exactly whats going into each bird genetically and look wize i will be bringing birds in now and again but from original breeders and from same genetic line when poss i know this may not always be poss but will get their when that happens Using families to outcross to each other is fine (for a while) but at some point you will need specific outcrosses that bear specic features not currently there in your stud. Also at some point when you use different families for outcrosses, they become one big family anyway and it happens reasonably quickly. I had 2 distinct lines going initially - 398 lacewing and Supabudgie, now looking at the pedigrees of many of my birds they are a strong combination of both families, where I have used one family to improve the other and visa versa depending on the pairing. I really now have to consider it one big family line. My clearwings on the other hand are very distinctly different as I am limited to what outcrosses I can use AND I've only been breeding them for a couple of years. I think looking for that missing feature in a bird you can buy as an outcross is very important but once you have it there, you need to try and put it into your stud. Sometimes they just don't gell in all that well and then you might need to find another that does. I also think working on a bit at a time is really helpful unless you have unlimited funds and can buy in super budgies to start you off.

She sure looked like a she yesterday - but then I've been tricked before

Diet changes can force a moult, as will moving birds from one spot to another (out of the breeding cabinets into a flight for example) BUT I have heard from many people this year that this spring moult seems to be a heavy one. Might be a combination of factors.

I had the pleasure to judge at this show with Cec Gearing judging the final best in show awards. The DF was the standout bird in Novice and showed himself off nicely, nice deportment, good shoulder a good overall bird which Renee should be proud of. Umm and having judged the UBC - she is a dark green not an Australian yellow face - going on the genetics (according to "A guide to colour mutation & genetics in parrots) she may well be split yellowface (bred from an Australian YF) but she is not yellowface herself - so no reason to not put her into the normal green variety class. Even if you are in the school of thought that says green MASKING yf (which is apparently NOT correct) then she is still a green and will not show that heavy green suffusion through blue body colour which is why WA does not allow single factor Aussie yellow faces (Golden faces in other words) into the YF class.

Funny :fingerscrossed: I use bran and often rolled oats......I have NO MOTHS :hap: Weird huh ? You obviously have WAY better moth control than I ever did........ I ended up getting carried away by moths and changed to pine shavings - no more moth problems :rofl: That one probably goes under the "its sometimes the operator and not the tools" section.

Yes you are right Jen. If both parents are split rec pied and one is dom then there is a chance of getting a combination pied (combined recessive and dominant pied).

Well that one goes down to the honesty of the seller doesn't it. If I had a hen that I couldn't get to breed my first instinct is to cull it not sell it. I have not ever sold a hen that I knew I could not breed from and all the ones I haven't bred with I will say just that. You can never guarantee that anything will breed but at least then the buyer can take the chance. I don't necessarily think that one is a myth just a dishonest seller or an honest one that really didn't know that the hen laid internally. Myths I was told: Put birds down to breed the first rains after Easter - disaster is what I'd call that. Full body colour greywings are greywing split clearwing...... took me a while to get my head around the real answer. Use bran as nesting material....... only if you like gazillions of moths everywhere. We tried it that way and it didn't work........ sometimes it's the operator and not the tools.

Don't forget Chookbreeder09, he goes alright on the show bench! Yes I know there are lurkers :fingerscrossed: But I'd love to see some input into discussions like this from guys like Chookbreeder09. Not pointing at him per se but I find it a little bit like "guarding their patch" which is a little self defeating if their patch dwindles so much due to no newbies, that all they end up competing against is themselves. I would also suggest to newbies to listen to the chatter around them at clubs too. You can pick up snippets of gem information and learn stuff that way too. Do some research....... I mean really........ although there is a distinct old boys club out there, PLENTY of people have written about budgies from health to genetics - you know you CAN help yourself a lot and yes a mentor is great but learning is a self drive thing. Read books, read articles, talk to people (just chatting away will herald much information if you are prepared to listen). Buying birds IS a hard one and one that I've (and everyone else I guess) has struggled with. I now have a list of breeders I would consider buying more birds from and a few I would never buy from again but I had to come up with that list myself from trial and error. It's hard to know if the wool is being pulled over your eyes but being super keen to buy might be a way of getting done if the person you are buying from is unscrupulous. Also pestering people for their good birds - COME ON - if someone did that to me I would probably never sell anything to them. I do agree that buying current year birds or maybe the year before depending on the time of year is probably best but that means you get the seconds. I choose my BEST birds to breed with and sell off the stock I feel I don't need. Sometimes picking up a cheap, bred with, older bird (so long as it is not ancient and bred that year or the year before (you have to trust the breeder here though) is a good option as these are the birds that the breeder felt were worth keeping to use - but you take a bigger risk). I DO try to help out people who ask for my assistance at show days but sometimes (bearing in mind that I'm either judging OR show managing 99% of the time) I just don't have the time to constantly help class birds, give advice or discuss health issues. Also at some point I do expect people will learn these things for themselves - I guess I'm not the super patient kind who is happy to explain over and over and over the same thing to the same person but I'm more than happy to share information that might help others in the hobby. Sometimes it's hard in the mentor role as you will be asked for advice, give it and then the person goes and does exactly the opposite anyway so you step back and allow the person to make those mistakes purposefully diluting your part in that newbie relationship. At auctions I like to enjoy myself, as it's one of the few times that I can relax to any great degree (after setting up and benching and before the auction starts and I have to man the computer) and unless someone has specifically asked me prior to the auction to select out birds for them AND I've agreed to do this, I find people who dog me the whole way around, asking me to find good birds for them REALLY annoying. Much nicer if you tee this up before hand and remember that I'm there to maybe grab a bargain too!!! I found that when I joined SWBC a few people were very friendly and welcoming and most gave information freely when asked so I had a relatively easy road in. But then I stewarded almost from day one and that's a great way to build relationships with top breeders (who are often the judges anyway) AND showed them that I was pretty keen and willing to give back to the club in exchange for the help and info I was getting.

Hmmm, I didn't say I didn't WANT them. That's why I bid in the first place, but there would have been a distinct point at which I would have bowed out thinking it was not worth the "dabble" at that price. That's what i mean by having fun at an auction - the bidding and possibly winning is the fun part. It's like gambling sometimes it pays off and the birds form a great part of your stud, sometimes it doesn't and if you haven't paid huge dollars it's even better coz then you've snagged a bargain!!!!! Maybe that's why it really looks like an artificial inflation of the price (and I'm not saying that it doesn't happen) as I'll bid sometimes on what could be a bargain bird but will pull out when the price point goes over my estimation of what it's worth to give the bird a bash in my breeding program. Just thinking about the topic itself though.......... I would have thought that these sorts of forums were a good place to recruit beginners and help them out with basics of breeding, showing etc but really how many TOP (I mean really TOP) breeders hang out here and help out others with what they have learned.........?

2. Yes! I just don't get it. Every auction I attend there is always an assortment of top level breeders bidding on the better birds. However they generally have (IMHO) much better birds than what they are bidding on! So why are they buying these birds at auction? If it's for a new variety then fine. Maybe they just have bags of money and like buying birds. If they need new bloodlines surely there is a cheaper way to do it than this by swapping birds. Or just maybe the conspiracist in me says it's all part of keeping the prices of birds artificially elevated. I don't know. Maybe IF I ever reach the Open status one day I'll be able to answer this. Until then I'll just continue to wonder why I'm bidding against these people. You hit the nail on the head Daryl with the "like buying birds". For many I know, auctions are a part of the culture and part of the fun. I reckon I probably don't need to buy more birds for a while but SOMETIMES I just can't help myself. I don't like spending exhorbitant amounts on birds (never have) and will not go all out to out-bid someone on the best birds of the auction, but I do like to think that maybe I've snagged a bargin......... it's why I bought 3 birds from the last SWBC auction that I really didn't need BUT BUT BUT, I know whats behind these birds and it's all really good AND they were going for a song considering AND maybe they will just work in nicely with my stud. Buying at auction is kinda a fun thing to do, even if you don't need the birds. It's part of it for me and I do like the excitement of it. I'm usually a bit disappointed when I get them home but then you can NEVER tell. I won't just bid on anything though, it has to have SOME potential, either in pedigree or in features. Also WA has changed. When I started there were stacks of Novice's and few Open showers. As those Novice's progressed or dropped out, fewer have come in to take their place and at one stage we had very few Novice, stacks of Intermediate's and few Opens - It seems much better spread today but it's in a constant state of flux and clubs in general are losing members with the wider spread of interests available to young people and the "old boys club" attitude that still prevails in the budgie hobby to a large extent.

I'm with you on that Dave. Just assumed you knew that the cock bird was a greywing coz I really couldn't tell what it was........ a very unusually coloured bird. Really attractive.

I don't think going out and buying anything and everything is NECESSARILY a bad thing for a Novice to do. Remembering my time in Novice, I did the very same thing, but I tell you what, at least I wasn't learning the ropes with birds worth hundreds of dollars. I think that starting with a pretty average group of birds is a great way to learn how to manage a budgie stud first, cut your teeth, so to say, on birds that will not kill you if something goes astray - which it generally does. Then once the basics of bird husbandry are down pat, go and buy those expense stock birds. I am glad I did it that way so the demoralisations of buying expensive birds (and $300 to me IS expensive for a bird) and then losing them due to ineptitude does not put you off the whole budgie thing to start with and you have a much better idea of what to expect. As an Open breeder now I would definitely tell it like it is to a Novice breeder so that they are prepared for things to come (but I'd try to do this without scaring them off). If they had bred birds before I'd recommend buying a few good birds to start with, if not then I think the "buy whatever you like" option (but not spend too much to start with) is not a bad one and then once they develop an eye they will know which ones to keep and which to sell and THEN buy in those better birds that will help them improve their stud. I do think THAT in itself (developing an eye) is a huge part of that learning process. I would also HIGHLY recommend for anyone that is half keen, to start stewarding on a full time basis. What better way to learn what judges are looking for and to see top birds on the bench (assuming there are some) and how they look, behave and are judged. Just so long as they don't think that they are an instant expert, or other stewards and show manager types might not welcome them back as they have a job to do and a distruptive know it all steward is the last thing that will help a show run smoothly. Just sit back, watch and learn. Those smaller shows are also a good opportunity to every now and then, ask the judge about why they chose this or that but keep it to a minimum and let the judge do their job for the most part. THEN when someone is on the way (and ONLY when they are showing the inclination to keep going) I would consider selling (maybe even giving) them a GOOD/GREAT stock bird. Something that I would have kept myself but that will help them along the track of establishing a nice stud for themselves. I think you have to put your pride away and for the sake of the hobby do this regardless of the threat of being beaten by a stud based on what you sold previously. I like to do this when people show an obvious inclination to have a real good go at it but would hold off if I was not convinced or if the person thought that they were owed it in some way (I've heard whingers over here saying that top breeders don't let good birds go - well I certainly would not let them go to the whingers anyway AND who says anyone HAS to make their birds available to anyone else, we have all had to get here our own way, with our own resources). Just my thoughts.

Luckily we get great afternoon shade from a monster gum tree and a geriatric peppermint tree. Not looking forward to the 40 degreeses but at the moment all is sweet and only one side of the aviary is being opened. I do use a water cooler on the extreme days in the breeding area, it definitely makes a difference but hard if we are away all day and it runs out of water in the afternoon....... need to rig up some self filling device me thinks.....