nubbly5

Eek! I'll have that whole "sucking poo off budgie eggs" thing stuck in my mind all day now...... As far as the greywings go though, Kaz they are tremendous! And yes a few open breeders breed greywings but not to any great extent and these birds are LOVELY. I always did like that dark green (or is it grey green???) hen. Maybe you could bring her down for me when you visit. I don't breed greywings but then I wouldn't care what she was, she's a beautiful bird. Looking forward to seeing them all grow on.

A SF GF paired to another SF GF would give: 25% chance DF GF 50% chance SF GF 25% chance normal blue. The other thing I guess you have to remember is that in birds (as with all animals) there is natural variation in strength and intensity of colouring due to heaps of different reasons. So my first thought would be to remate the birds to see if you get the same result and if you do then I would be thinking that you have a SF GF with more restriction of yellow production than normal (or a body colour/feather structure that hides suffusion well on the body colour (or both)). Again when RIP gets herself out of bed maybe she can comment :rofl:

Hi Jen Read here. Has pics and explanations of ALL YF mutations. http://forums.budgiebreeders.asn.au/index....showtopic=27620 There are only 3 forms of YF - YF1, YF2 and GF. However RIP did comment that when you get combinations of these genes other things can happen so I assume if you have a DF YF1 (white face) that is also a DF GF, it might well remove all the yellow that would have been present had the GF genes be there on their own. It's when you get combinations of these genes that I start to lose my way. But maybe RIP can comment further. As you will see on the above thread though the single factor GF is yellow spread on the body and the double factor GF has yellow restricted to the face...... please have a look.

I'm looking forward to meeting you.

Search me CB. Was thinking about this after your post and the best I can come up with is this: Like the clearwing, when you try to improve size and feather you lose wing clarity in a big way and although the BES is a composite of cinnamon and dilute, we are still having to select out those birds with little markings and little suffusion and I think THIS is where we end up losing size and feather. I think if we could just select for the biggest and best examples of the BES we would end up with a bird that maybe was not AS heavily suffused as a dilute but still too heavily suffused for the standard BES but would definitely rival dilutes and cinnamons in size and feather. I just think that the selection pressure is swayed more heavily towards reducing suffusion and markings (the essesnce of a BES I guess). That's my thought on it anyway. Give me a few more years breeding the little suckers and I might have changed that somewhat

Hi Nubbly, Riddle me this... If blackeyes are cinnamon dilutes, why are they all pissants with narrow heads and no feather? Good cinnamons are as good as any budgie and quality dilutes are not that far behind. If Blackeyes are a combination of these two varieties, then why are they such runts??? There is no doubt that there are blackeyes out there that are carrying/masking cinnamon, but there are plenty of others that aren't, and the true blackeye shouldn't have cinnamon in it. Saying that, you would have to be good to pick a cinnamon dilute or cinnamon blackeye from a "pure" blackeye. Cheers PT Looking at Peter G's winning blackeye this year I wouldn't say that it was a pissant (but he even admitted himself that it was a bit green ). Talking to all the people that I know who breed standout blackeyes - they ARE cinnamon dilute on the whole and the ones that don't carry cinnamon GENERALLY end up too heavily suffused (these are (non-cinnamon BES') straight dilutes after all just with some selective breeding to reduce suffusion of course). And I would challenge you to find a good coloured blackeye that was not a cinnamon. I think I have ONE in the birds I bought as my starting stock (the only one that looks to have blue feet rather than pink) but I have not test mated it to find out as he is just that - too suffused. And yes these are birds from Nats winning studs - all of whom have told me that breeding top quality BES is about breeding to dark green cinnamons (cinnamon to reduce suffusion and dark factor to increase brightness of the yellow). Just read your last post CB (problem being a slow typer ). Remember I've just started with this variety but I have never been advised by anyone to breed splits using normals - always cinnamon and as I said previously - any splits I have ever bred from purchased in stock have always bred 100% cinnamon. So far for me, it's enough proof that BES ARE in fact just a combination of dilutes and cinnamon - as I said above though, obviously these dilutes have been selctively bred to have less suffusion than your standard dilute.

okay Linda I'll plonk in some comments but what Renee said is correct, photo's can be difficult to assess and make our comments based wholey and soley on what we see here but seeing a bird in the flesh is sometimes quite different. And as other have stated do you NEED to cull down. If not then breed a few and then do a cull based on having new birds to replace the culls with. So okay, some comments to be found by the pictures..... Having just done the comments I wanted to mention a couple of things. Most of the birds shown here are good enough quality to go along with apart from a couple of the cocks. Personally I would never write off hens that even MIGHT be useful and most of the girls you have shown here I would personally keep. It LOOKS to me (and this is just from photo's mind so might not be a true assessment) that you need some length in your stud. The birds you have here are nice but many of them sit heavily and do not stand off the perch to any degree (this is not a terrible thing but you will need more length to go on with). I would suggest you try to get to at least a few shows with your birds to see where you are at and what you need and that will help drive what you cull too. Hope this helps.

Been breeding blackeyes for a little bit now and I can say they are definietly a composite of cinnamon and dilute. Cinnamon is used to reduce suffusion in the dilute to make it a black eyed self. Opaline on the other hand is not used as the combination has to be shown in the opaline AOSV. Every backeyed self I have bred to cinnamon (purchased in blackeyes) have bred 100% cinnamon. Your bird looks to be a blackeyed self (I would consider her to be a bit strongly marked for this variety but still quite a nice example). I would have thought she might be a bit more suffused if she were a straight dilute and not a cinnamon dilute (blackeye).

Hmmm, might be a DF spangle. Are the eyes red or black?

The notorious Perth budgie pincher (who spent a bit of time behind bars recently) is out and on the hunt for budgies. Anyone taking call from a fellow looking for birds, be careful. He comes looks and then comes back at a later time to clean out your aviary! My German Shepherd is being posted outside the aviary.

200+ budgies and all have ring numbers but do I name them all........ I don't think so. But I do know the ring number and lineage of most of the birds that I use for breeding (maybe not the first year I use them but if they are in the breeding room for a couple of rounds I get to remember them quite well whilst completing the chick records).

In the top photos she has not broken cap yet which makes it easier to see her real colour with less suffusion. She is also cinnamon so body colour is lightened and therefore will show yellow more readily. Mother is definitely creamino and as Elly says ino can mask a dark factor. And I'll take a punt on father being a GF and mother being a YF M2. The baby's cheek patch is also pretty dark which indicates to me a dark factor bird. Also the patch of light mauve on the lower belly area on the bird as an unbroken cap definietly indicates a YF bird of some sort to me but the extensive and quite strong yellow suffusion says GF. And (assuming no colony breeding) parents cannot produce a green bird, again as Elly says. So I'll go for: SF GF Cinnamon Opaline Mauve.

Hmm, I spy an iris ring on the pied so he's not a recessive or maybe not JUST a recessive. Maybe a combo pied or DF Domi perhaps - I don't know enough about combo pieds and rec pieds to make a call here. More than likely though as far as red eyes go, you would have an ino or maybe lacewing split. To get fallow both hen and cock would have to be split. Pretty unlikely I would say. But with ino, you only need the cock to be split for it to show up in some ino hens. Much more likely. But just to clarify - are the eyes RED or are they PLUM? There is a distinct difference. And unless Boof is a BROWNWING (which I know very little about), he looks like a cinnamon. These are the only 2 options for Boof I am afraid. I would say a victim of colony breeding is someone else getting to Boof's girlfriend when you AND Boof were not watching.

What a cutie! Violet Skyblue Texas Clearbody is what I think (but the flash photo's may have tricked me into saying violet).

On the 22nd Nov 2009 the BBC Great YF Symposium was held. Hosted by Renee and eagerly attended (might have been something to do with the food and beverages promised by Renee) by Kaz, RIPbudgies and Nubbly5. Sadly as 3 out of 4 of us had to drive, the alcohol was mainly consumed by Renee so I figure she might need this post to try and remember what actually happened on the afternoon . We were lucky enough to have a selection of birds on loan from Libby (via Kaz) as well as RIP, plus a few home growns from Renee too. I have tried to capture here information for all other BBC members from the symposium as well as sharing pics - so I hope you all find it useful. Some abbreviations that I have used: DF = double factor SF = single factor GF = golden face YF = yellow face M1 = mutant 1 M2 = mutant 2 So to start with RIP's decription of the Green, YF, Blue allelic series goes something like this. Originally budgies were green, mutations occurred that limited the production of yellow in the budgie to differing degrees. Completely in the case of blue budgies or incompletely in the case of YF & GF budgies. On a scale of 0-100% yellow pigment it would look something like this. 100%......................................................................50%..............................................................................0% Green.............SF GF...........SF M2 YF.................................DF GF.............SF M1 YF/DF M2 YF...........................DF M1 YF The double factor mutant 1 YF LOOKS identical to a normal blue budgie but is genetically different in other words the total reduction of yellow from the bird is due to different genes producing the same effect in the bird. Green, YF (all types) and blue genes ALL OCCUR ON THE SAME ALLELE so ONLY 2 of any of these genes can occur in the one bird. The dominance progression in this allelic series is as follows: Green is DOMINANT to YF, YF is DOMINANT to blue. It is therefore INCORRECT to suggest that green MASKS yellowface. In fact it is correct to say that green can be split for YF. Also when we say "Single Factor YF" it would be also be technically correct to say YF split for blue (but that would be like saying Spangle split for normal (which is technically correct but that we don't do for dominant genes)). Breeding expectations go like this: Pairing a green bird to a SF YF bird looks like this: Green/Green x YF/Blue = 50% Green/YF (green split for YF) & 50% Green/Blue (Green split for Blue) Pairing a SF YF to a Blue bird looks like this: YF/Blue x Blue/Blue = 50% YF/Blue (SF YF) & 50% Blue/Blue Pairing a DF YF to a Blue bird looks like this: YF/YF x Blue/Blue = 100% YF/Blue (SF YF) Pairing a DF YF to a Green bird looks like this: YF/YF x Green/Green = 100% Green/YF (Green split for YF) To clarify then - A green bird is just that A GREEN BIRD it does not MASK yellow face as you cannot ADD EXTRA YELLOW TO AN ALREADY 100% effective YELLOW PIGMENT. A green bird is SPLIT for YF as YF is recessive to green. Also you need to remember that there is a natural variation in the brightness of yellow shown in green variety budgies. A brighter yellow in some does NOT indicate that the bird is masking YF. It might or might not be SPLIT for YF, but like other recessive varieties it is NOT identifyable. So what do all the different YF varieties look like: I have been able to compile a group of photos to show you all the different YF forms. So starting with the least reduction of yellow pigment - the single factor golden face (or single factor Australian Yellow Face) This YF form reduces yellow pigment the least so single factor GF's appear to have a strong golden coloured face but also have strong yellow suffusion through the body colour (or better said, limited yellow reduction in the body colour). Shown here is a SF GF Mauve - see how this bird looks almost olive in colour which it would be if 100% of the yellow pigment was still present but due to some removal of the yellow pigment by the SF GF gene, the bird looks slighly different to an ordinary olive colour. okay, this fellow is a SF GF grey. Again notice how this bird is VERY NEARLY a grey green - but NOT QUITE. Again this is due to a small amount of yellow pigment reduction from the bird making the bird appear close to a grey green but on comparison is still slightly different. The DF GF form reduces Yellow pigment even more. Restricting it almost to face areas only but retaining the strong golden pigment on the face. We were lucky enough to get a photo of a bird that had significant white areas which shows up the restriction of the golden colour very well. Obviously on birds with darker body colour, any remaining yellow suffusion is hidden better, making the DF GF in violet or mauve and extremely attractive contrast, with little to no suffusion into the body colouration evident. Next is the YF Mutant 2. Below are several photos of SF YF M2's. This gene restricts yellow pigment more than the SF GF, but possibly less than the DF GF and shows a distinct lighter yellow suffusion throught the body colour but with a lighter yellow face colour than the GF. You can see in following photographs that the blue body colour is turned a distinctive aqua colour due to the suffusion of yellow through the body colour. In the case of the cinnamon opaline grey it is easy to see the yellow suffusion through the body colour. The next photo we decided was most likely a DF YF M2 due to the almost total restriction of yellow suffusion in the body colour, combined with the softer yellow face colouring and the almost completely white wing markings, showing little of the yellow pigment through the rest of the body. The YF M2 in the double factor form further reduces yellow colouration, leaving the lighter yellow colour almost soley on the face area. Lastly is the YF M1. This gene reduces yellow more strongly than the other 2 YF genes. In the single factor this bird looks just about identical to the DF YF M2, with yellow restricted to the face area and little suffusion of the yellow colour into the body colour. In the DF form the YF M1 has 100% yellow pigment removal and looks identical to a normal white faced bird but will be genetically different. Test mating to a known normal blue or grey will give 100% yellowfaced chicks. The hen bellow is the mother of the yellow faced chicks above. Out of a number of rounds to normal blue partners she only ever produced YF chicks. Some of which are shown above. So that's it for me. Kaz, RIP or Renee...... like to add anything?

Now didn't I tell ya it would get judged as a Dom and that the judge wouldn't even notice the lack of iris rings. :rofl: Way to go Renee. :rofl: At least it generated discussion. Nubbly writes mental note to self - "Add iris ring check to growing judges checklist of - check variety, check for scale, check cere colour for those tricky brown cered cocks, check for sick bird or kacky bums, check toes, check flights, check tails, etc, etc, etc...................." sigh.....

Funny....I just noticed even this guy has a keyhole look Renee actually quite a few on the photos of the birds at the Nationals did have that look. :rofl: This is not a keyhole effect! Keyhole is when you look at the bird from the front and they have no width at cere level (so in effect it's sillohette would look like a keyhole). The cinnamon grey bird has width behind the cere (width below his backskull so to speak) so he is not keyholed. What you are seeing is the lovely frontal and directional feather than makes them look like they have a little cotton ball stuck on their head. This is fine if the have the strength and width behind the cere to back it up.

What a pretty looking bird. I've never seen a grey dilute before - really attractive!!!

Sunday was fantastic. I got photos of YF mutant 2's sf & df and GF, sf & df. This coming sunday I take charge of a DF YF mutant 1 (white face) and get to photograph her chicks (known sf mutant 1's presumably) so if you guys can be a bit patient and wait until after Sunday I will post a picture and word coverage of pretty much what we covered on Sunday. Oh and I'm online intermittently but am in NSW and can't download photos until I get home Friday or after. AND I JUST read Daryl's smart **** post and almost weed myself. Hmmmm Mr Red Budgie Smugglers sounds very interesting (oops sorry Grant ).

Me too.Could be olive. Need to see the cheek patch. Opaline slightly fades body colour remember, so they can easily be mistaken for grey green. Cheek patch will tell.Also NO they will not ALL be olive chicks. single dark factor birds bred together (Dd x Dd) will give you 25% chance no dark factor (dd), 50% chance single dark factor (Dd) and 25% chance of double dark factor (DD). Sorry GB but i might. A bird is either olive or mauve but not both. Both are names for birds with double dark factor genes (olive in the green series, mauve in the blue). It might be olive SPLIT FOR BLUE but it's never a mauve green.It is not uncommon for olives to look grey green but cheek patches on grey greens are distinctly bluey grey coloured not purple or almost black. Opaline will alter the colour of birds (as does cinnamon) and thats why you are seeing a bronsey colour.I think everyone is trying to make this way more difficult than it is. I reckon it's why Macca commented about every cobalt being a sky violet!!!!!!To me it seems very straight forward - olives, dark greens and skyblues - nothing that would not be expected from this breeding! Spangle we know is there in the hen, cinnamon is obviously in the cock bird. Personally I don't see violet in any of the chicks (possibly in the Mum but I'd bet for plain old cobalt).

If she is spangle lacewing then it's going to be really hard to see any cinnamon markings, especially before she moults. What I do see are the 2 main tail quills (not the feather itself but the quill) being darker than the other tail feathers. That's normally a good indication of lacewing over lute as lute main tail quills look pinkish not slightly brown (cinnamon). Also it does look like a slightly lilac cheek patch (cheek patches in lacewings are generally a liliac colour in both yellow and whites) but that could just be the light in the photo. I do have normal lacewings that show virtually no markings until after they moult. Wait and see until after she moults and then decide. No lute in the breeding but like I pm'ed you, there is a chance of crossover in all lacewing breeding. Can you take a couple of clear photos looking down onto the top of her tail and looking down onto the back of her wings too? Mainly the tail I'm interested in seeing. I'll have to try and get some pics of my current young lacewings for you to compare, some are marking free on the wings at this stage.

DF YF..... hic...... I mean GF....... hic........ are.........umm....... REALLY.......pretty! (JB that's an example of what you are going to get from a DVD of our YF discussion :hug: ) Bugger it, if none of us can drink & drive then we'll have to do a budgie girl slumber party (that's code for "drink as much as you like" party) some other time as well.

Mum is cobalt spangle not grey green. You might be looking at the dilute in front of Dad?........................ AHA I was too So none of the babies can be grey green (unless you've rediscovered the assumed extinct recessive grey).