Kaj

Hi Katie, the largest difference I have had in a clutch between any two siblings was about 6 days but I have had a clutch of six previously with 13 days between the oldest and the youngest and they were fine. I think you will just have to see what happens and hopefully you will not have to hand raise any babies as that is a huge around the clock commitment. Not that you could have planned this with your current clutch given how it came about, but I often find it helpful to breed 2 or more pairs at the same time so that the can be back-ups for each other. So far this has provided lots of benefits including not having to hand feed, providing an infertile egg laying hen with fertile eggs she so desired and much more. Maybe something for the future. Your babies look nice and healthy - mum must be doing a good job. What is the minimum age of the remaining eggs? Can't quite see the ceres clearly but best guess is that perhaps a1- male and a2-female.

No mum will often just continue to incubate them but you may wish to check the eggs ( by candling. Some say that "Dead in shell"(DIS - baby inside but dead ) can make hatched chicks sick. I do tend to leave any infertile eggs in the nest as a support for hatched chicks until they can sit up okay for themselves.

Thanks Robyn, Do you think I have the mutations and genders right?

Hi, So sorry to hear about the death of your babies. I know you are convinced that they have been suffocated by the mother but I can't help wondering if there is another possible cause here such as a genetic issue. For example if the babies died as a result of some genetic issue(or illness), the mother may still be inclined to try and keep the deceased baby under her. (some will discard) The pressure of mother's weight combined with the impact of death on the chick's body could result in a flattened outcome. I would not necessarily give up on her yet (although no doubt the heartache may make you feel that way), but you might consider breeding her with a different partner or have any future dead babies checked for by an avian vet(although this can be and expensive option and may not give a result.) That said I would use any measures that may help her have a successful clutch - false eggs/marble etc if you do decide to breed her again.

Unless you can watch them most of the time, it will probably best to separate them to protect them. Either put the females separate to the males or pair them. If it was me, at this stage as you are not planning to breed just yet, I would separate them by gender for now. The fights should stop without the female present. Unfortunately the physical fights can get quite nasty and you may be lucky that there has been no blood shed as yet

Read elsewhere about your dilemma -- sorry it is not working out yet. FYI when hens first lay, they may not actually start sitting on the eggs until they have laid two or three eggs. An avian vet once told me that fertile eggs can remain viable for upto 10 days without incubation but I am not sure if this is true once they have started the incubation process. Something to consider for future breeding is to have two or more couples breeding at roughly the same time... Doesn't always work because as you can imagine they don't always breed according to a timetablle but it very helpful when they do. For example I have had one female who constantly had stillborn eggs so I was able to give her some fertilsed eggs from another mum that had 6 in her second clutch and was starting to look like she needed a break.

and here is Splotch the dad hard to photograph as he is always on the move - particularly with 6 babies to look after.

I used to colony breed years ago when I had a large aviary keeping between 20-30 birds. During that time I always kept equal or more males than females. In addition I always had extra breeding boxes, so if I had 5 females of breeding age, I would have 10 breeding boxes available. I rarely had any problems probably because of this arrangement. It seems most problems come when the females fight over nesting boxes, damaging each other or their eggs or killing babies. During my colony breeding days fortunately this did not happen. Having recommenced breeding I have made the decision to cage breed as I don't have a large aviary and I wanted to control the pairing more. I have four breeding cages which can convert to double flight cages and two small aviaries. I initially started with one aviary but decided like Finnie to keep my males separate from females outside of breeding --- more or less. (I have a couple of older pairs that don't trouble anyone and no one troubles them). Regarding your female she may simply not be mature enough or she may just be a bird that does not make a good mother - only time will tell with this. I doubt that your 2:1 male to female ratio has caused the problem but a smaller cage at a latter date may have less distractions and she will be a little bit older.

This is normal behaviour - hens can lay eggs with or without a male. Not all hens will lay but if they are in breading condition it would be a very likely outcome. The birds will also mate when they are in breeding condition and that is likely to increase the chance of egg laying. You may even find a hen prepared to incubate her eggs on the floor or in a seed bowl etc if she is feels the need to create a family. So keep an I out for that one. You mention that the eggs were broken and look unfertilised. They generally always will look infertile (yolk and white) when first laid as the embryo will still be very very small. I think it usually takes a few days before the fertility is obvious and some blood may be apparent in a broken egg. Hope that helps

So here is the latest clutch of 6 from Wild and Splotch. Splotch is a son of Pebbles and BamBam shown previously under "sexing some new babies" topic on this forum. I have included descriptions below but if there are any errors please feel free to correct me. I will load a picture of the dad, Splotch at a future date but for now I believe he would be classified as a cobalt or violet pied split to ino and opaline. His mum BamBam was a violet opaline and his dad a recessive pied split to ino and dilute(greywing). I think Wild is a Single Factor dominant pied but not sure how to describe her colour. Maybe yellow faced green? Baby 1 - a single factor dominant pied but white face with blue markings. - female? Baby 2 and Baby 3 - cobalt and a cobalt pieds - both male I think. One has a small white dot on back of head which what I think might make him a pied. Baby 4 - Albino - has to be a hen I believe as neither of the parents are ino and also this therefore must come from the dad. Baby 5 - Creamino - a bit of a surprise - I suspect this will also have to be a hen for the same reason as baby 4 but I must admit I expected that a creamino would come from a lutino/albino combination so nice surprise. Baby 6 - my guess - an opaline single factor dominant pied cobalt - female. As I now believe that the dad splotch must be split to opaline since opaline is a sex-linked gene(carried by male) and his mum was in fact an opaline violet. Also I suspect that any opaline babies would have to be female as neither of the parents are opaline. Please feel free to comment or offer any corrections on what I have written above as I am still learning mutations/colours. Also to the moderators, I seem to have heaps of problems typing into the boxes on this forum as letters are left out so I usually resort to typing in a word doc then cutting and pasting. Is there another way around this?

My guess is that the sky blue opaline is a male judging by the behaviour you describe and the photo. I would be inclined to separate them for awhile.... the change may be as good as a holiday. They then may appreciate the company of each other more and things may take off.

Hi Phillip, which bird is currently showing interest in the nesting box? Not sure about scaly face as the picture is not that clear.(or my eyesight is failing).

Hey Finnie thanks heaps for addressing all my queries and providing such comprehensive explanations. You have really helped my understanding (and interest in mutations). One thing I didn' t pick-up though was that mum Rainbow is in fact a spangle (still not sure I see this) and that it was her passing on the spangle gene. Also one of the sons of Pebbles and BamBam has just had a clutch of six beautiful babies which I believe includes a creamino, an albino, an opaline and some SF dominant pieds. I hope to put some pictures up soon under the mutations section for further discussion. It appears that the son is /opaline (from BamBam) and /ino (from Pebbles) By the way Finnie you have a great website - given me some good ideas for keeping my numbers in check..

Assuming the shade cloth allows for ventilation, you could try perspex cut to size on one or two sides. I have this for my patio avaries in Melbourne ( for colder weather) and use fly screen toggles to hold the Perspex in position.

Hey Finnie, WOW - thanks for your fantastic response. I have had to read and re-read it many times because it contained so much - I really appreciate all the time you spent on addressing my questions and I am really looking forward to your next update when time permits. Your last reply really improved my understanding but also created more questions some of which may be addressed when you identify the mutations of the posted birds. I apologise in advance if my questions are stupid but hope that your direct replies will help me and others to learn more.Thanks also to Budgie Lov3r who has taken the time to get involved in this discussion and offer his assistance. Firstly regarding the yellow face mutation, how would an original green bush budgie be classified? As a yellow-faced sky-blue or this does not apply because it is not considered a mutation? Regarding dad Pebbles (sorry I don't know how to cut and quote on this forum), my understanding now is that he is probably a recessive pied /albino /dilute(greywing). I cannot visually identify any spangle on dad (assuming that I am looking for an outline feature) but since some of the offspring appear to be spangle does that mean that either both mums or dad have at least one copy of the gene that is somehow being masked in them? If only one gene exists but cannot be seen (even though it is dominant to normal perhaps because he is so pied?) should we also say he is /spangle? Is it not possible for Pebbles to have 2 spangle genes as then he would be a double factor spangle and be white? Also will all of Pebble's offspring be /recessive pied(1 gene) or masking recessive pied(2 genes-but maybe only possible with inos) if they are not visibly recessive pied as they will all have at least one recessive pied gene. Also with all of Pebble's male offspring, will 50% be likely to be /albino? The 1st clutch of babies with yellow faces are now going through moults and are showing more green which you suggested will mean yf2. Does this also mean that all babies are likely to only be yf2 or is it possible to also have a yf1 or goldenface. Just an update on the babies, all seem as suggested except for D who now appears to be female (spangle?). Also I have just noted that one of the babies in the photo of four is a ringin. I believe he is a DF dominant pied (shown on the ladder below-white with facial bars) as his dad was I think a DF dominant pied (yellow) and mum is a SF dominant pied so he should be excluded if you are using the babies to work out the mutations of the parents. Would still love to have the mutations identified of the offspring, Rainbow and BamBam (assuming that we will have sorted Pebbles by this stage) Thanks heaps

Hi Rochelle, Sorry to hear about your sad story and terribly sorry for your loss. Like Nadene, I would consider removing her when the chicks are 3-4 weeks old or perhaps when/if she starts laying. If she does lay, you will need to throw out any eggs unless your friend has a clutch you can add them to. Nobody likes discarding fertile eggs but you will have to do it for her sake. Once you have removed her, check that the dad is feeding and not hurting the babies- check their crops and / or weigh them on digital scales. I had a dad once that was attacking mum and so she had all the blood on her. If dad is hurting the babies you may have to put them in a separate (non breeding) cage with mum checking that she is not also attacking but feeding them. If all else fails you may have to resort to hand rearing. Good luck and take care.

I agree with Budgiel Lov3r. Not sure about the age of the males but the female has still has bars on its head so is probably quite young - under 4 months. The bars go when she goes through her first moult which is usually around 3-4 months.

Thanks for taking the time to respond. By masking grey wing or spangle, does this mean these are both sex-linked traits? Great if you can identify mutations on any of the babies (and even BamBam) as it might help clarify clear-wing vs greywing vs spangle.

Hey Budgie Lov3r Thanks for your answer. Your comment also pushed me to look the mutations/genetics of budgies - sex linked genes etc - so thanks for that because it seems really interesting, I have heaps to learn and I have only recently returned to breeding (with my kids) -having not been involved for many years when I was a child myself. Hi Finnie, Thanks also for taking the time to add your bit - greatly appreciated. The wing markings on the back look like this:- And dad so far has only had albino babies not DF spangle. So how would you describe both parents? I am just learning here. Dad- recessive pied split to albino? Mum - pretty (told you I am learning) - maybe a yellow faced bluey green spangle/clear wing??? Also to help with the puzzle, I have included some babies from a previous clutch (same parents) And finally Pebbles previous partner was BamBam -(possibly a violet opaline ?) shown below along with their offspring. This may/may not help you to identify some other hidden aspects of Pebbles. Any comments would be helpful including how you would describe the mutations of the babies. Thanks

Hi there, Hoping some of you might like to offer your opinion of the sexes of my latest clutch. Baby A - Albino Baby B - Yellow faced pale blue dilute? spangle/light wings ? Baby C -Albino Baby D - Blue spangle Baby E - Blue pied Also love to hear how you would describe the mutations of mum and dad - and for those of you into the genetics, you may like to commnt on the colours in the babies. Dad- Pebbles - one of my favourites - loves celery with a vengeance And mum Rainbow - finally has fulfilled her life long ambition to raise successful clutches - previously just DIS eggs Looking forward to your thoughts

Hey birdlime, in the 3rd last photo, Alan looks quite blue. Does he have a blue side or was that something to do with the camera? Is the green colouring on his backa tinged with blue? P.S. you should be biased and proud. Thanks Finnie, very helpful. I can see most of it but where does the "mutant two sky blue split to cinnamon " come in. Are you able to explain this more for a mutation newbie? Sorry Birdlove my spelling corrector changed you name!!!!

Great photos - so what type of budgie is Alan (apart from very cute), I am still trying to identify all the variations, - Opaline, Single factor dominant pied etc?

So just an update. Mum successfully raised the four chicks alone once dad was removed. Here is a picture of mum when first injured. And here are the kids And dad ..... well he got back together with a previous love within two days of separation.

I have two budgies around 14 months old having their first clutch. Dad had previously bonded with another non-breeding hen in the aviary. When I introduced him to mum in the breeding cage, they literally mated within a few minutes - an amazingly short courtship that I had never previously seen. They were very kissy and within two weeks they had eggs and now have 4 beautiful babies. The oldest baby who is now five weeks has been coming out of the box for the last five days. Dad has also taken a shine to this baby and has made several unsuccessful attempts to mate with the baby when the baby has asked for food. Whilst this is disturbing, I have seen this before and decided that if it gets worse, I will remove the baby who now seems to generally be able to feed itself. The problem is mum and dad's relationship. Over the last week or so they have become quite aggressive to each other. Dad often flies at mum as if to attack and mum is frequently seen pecking him. If I put something in the cage like celery, they fight over it. Gone also are the lovey-dovey kissing sessions. As the babies have got older mum seems to spend a great amount of time out of the box whereas normally a mum would be thinking of starting another clutch. Some of this is because she almost has to sneak into the box sometimes to get in as dad will often fly at her. She spends much time on a seed feeder in the corner furtherest away from the box. Absent mum or agrressive/over protective dad?? Today I arrived home to find mum with a bloodied closed eye with blood around the eye in a 1cm diameter. I instantly removed her to a separate cage to assess and protect her. Luckily her eye is okay as initially I thought it may have been pecked out. Later I added the oldest chick to her cage that dad has recently been hassling. This was to stop dad from hassling the baby and also give mum company. In addition as I do not know what has occurred I can only assume dad has attacked mum. Perhaps dad got too amorous with baby and mum stepped in?? So initially the plan was to let dad raise the babies, but the niggling thought was what if dad was the problem and mum stepped in. I suspect the two youngest babies may also be female. Will he be trouble for them? I also was not sure if he was actually feeding the younger ones so I placed them temporarily on the bottom of the cage to see if he was feeding anyone - to no avail. One thing though when I went to return them to the box he flew down on top of them as if to protect them. Having returned the babies to the box, I brought mum back to observe the behaviour. At this stage they had been separated 6 hours. Instantly he flew at her and tried to block her from returning to the nesting box. Why would he be so protective of the box? Does he think she is a problem or is he attempting to protect his harem? I have never seen such aggression between parents - only female budgies. Maybe one has a mental illness? I then decided to take him out and put him in the separate cage with the oldest baby. Instantly he attempted to mate with the baby, so I have returned the baby to the nesting cage (she still sleeps overnight in the box even though she can eat and drink for herself.) So the plan is to make sure mum is feeding the babies by midday tomorrow. If so, I will return dad to the aviary. If not, I will have to swap mum and dad again and remove the oldest baby to a separate cage with mum. Of the other three babies, two may be in fact cracking seed themselves -not sure about drinking. But the youngest was a runt and five days younger than the closest sibling, so he still has quite a way to go and will need feeding. Continuous handfeeding is not really an option though. So has anyone experienced this behaviour before between parents? What would/did you do? Any comments/suggestions will be appreciated. I let you know what happens if for nothing else to share the experience with others.

First of all thanks to Nadene, Robyn, Rich and Budgie_mad for taking the time to address my issue. After much angst I decided to add one of my more "friendly" males to the cage and much to my delight they paired up within a few days. Rainbow continued to sit on the eggs and rarely left the box. Gale (a male - named by my son after a character in hunger games) often joined her and cleaned and fed her while she sat on the eggs. However just as with the first clutch and much to my disappointment the second clutch never produced any babies - a few were infertile and the rest were dead in shell. So the lost dad and any potential offspring were lost forever. However before I removed the 2nd clutch eggs, Rainbow started her third clutch which was unexpected and not intended. Feeling sorry for her and hoping that that the fertility issue may have been linked to the lost dad, I decided to let her continue the clutch with her new partner. I had another couple of budgies with eggs about the same time so figured that they could be back-up if needed. I also took the unusual step of swapping an egg from each clutch about half way through the incubation period as a test. okay so the first thing that happened much to my delight was that the egg from the other clutch (Wild & Tigers) hatched for Rainbow. The baby appeared weak though, and although Rainbow fed it, it died within a few days. I felt even more sorry for her now but was now starting to think that she must have fertility issue as none of her eggs had hatched. By this time three eggs in Wild's clutch had started to hatch, including one that hatched and died the same day - so it may not have been Rainow's fault that her baby had died. But then the big surprise Rainbow's egg hatched in Wild's box and the baby appears healthy - that baby is now nine day's old and thriving with its three genetically unrelated siblings. Wild's youngest was born last Monday - 6 days later. The amazing thing about this one was we were checking the eggs on Sat afternoon and could hear the baby chirping inside the egg. Something I have never heard. I was a bit concerned on Sunday afternoon when I could no longer hear the chirping and much of the internet forums suggest that a chirping egg should hatch within 12 hours. But Monday morning the little one arrived. So it appears it hatched some 28-40hours after we first heard it chirping. As for Rainbow she has two eggs left that I suspect are dead in shell. They will be removed and checked in a few days and she will be returned to the aviary for a big rest. It I just a shame that although she will probably meet her own baby, she will never know it is hers. A friend who I a vet (but not avian ) suggested that Rainow's dead in shell maybe because there is not enough "white" in her shells so that the babies/embryos die of starvation before they a fully developed. I may ever know.