okay, lots of questions there!

 

You have to look at the lace's and splits as your group of birds to work with adding normals here and there to improve the line. So yes AS a lacewing the cin/ is useful, probably as a normal cinnamon people would cull him.

 

As far as lines go, in the end you will end up with a group of birds with generally the same lines. That's pretty muh how studs develop. I see no real need to try and keep lacewings in seperate families - I've only done it with clearwings to try and preserve a family pool of super clearwinged birds. Look at your lacewings as a whole pool of birds and pair that way. You want to join the substance you have in the majority of your birds with the feather you have in a few of them. You can always use a normal or cinnamon from your normal breeding program to plop into them as an outcross or you can buy a normal or cinnamon outcross for your lacewings specifically later on when you have evened out a line of birds. At the moment you have a group of irds all with different features that you need to work into a single line.

 

Definitely keep the nest feathers and see how they develop BEARING IN MIND that they have all the features you already have in your birds and none of what you need but you need something to start off with and if they have a good background then they are worth a try! As I said before you will need to be careful of what you use them with whereas the top cock would be handy across a few different hens.

 

Again Milton is useful in that he is a big bird with good substance and deportment but again look at the narrowness across the cere and the lack of feather on top. There is a pattern here!!!!! I can see what you like in a bird but you need to go out and have a good look at your open/champion breeders birds at shows. Look at them critically, what is it that makes them different from the birds in your stud. Write down what you see if need be or take photos and compare them to your birds at home. Then go and sort your birds for a particular feature say "width across the cere" just for example. You need to have in your minds eye exactly what you are aiming for. Even take a picture of a bird that does well that you really like and stick it by your computer so that you are looking at it regularly. You need to be able to say, "yes, that bird HAS something of the features that I need". You DO HAVE all the tools you need to progress at this stage, you just have to be able to see the features in your birds. One cock might be a tiny bit better in blow from top down to his shoulders than the others or a hen might just have more directional feather than her sisters. You need to determine what it is you need and then select those birds to breed with.

 

As far as using dark factors..... my thoughts are (and this is just my opinion okay)....... dark factor is great if you are breeding yellow laces but even more important is that bright golden ground colour. The reason people suggest dark factors is the theory that dark factors deepen the yellow ground colour (which it does) but there are light green birds around that also have magnificent deep yellow ground colour. This is starting to get more into variety characteristics, which are somewhat important, but not as important as type at this stage. Still if you have access to reasonable birds who ALSO have great golden ground colour then so much the better, if not it's something you can concentrate on more once you have established a line of lacewings.

 

Dark factor in white lacewings is something of a problem as white shows up suffusion much more readily than yellow and I would steere more towards greys if you want to breed whites. Blue tends to leave a patina of blue sheen on many white lacewings and in dark factor that can be a bit obvious. But again if it's a good bird it doesn't matter one jot what colour it is (relative to your breeding program at least)!

okay

so what i have got for my lesson is

1) i have all the birds + more to beable to get started

2) i dont need to do two lines as the birds features all need to be improved a pone (which is the fun of it all as you stated somewhere )

3) i need to balance my birds out into 3 groups

feather ,, wighth n size , and head features as in direction and blow

4) breed my lacewings to normals and split them off

and breed my splits to normals to split them off and possably gain a lacewing here and their

5) dont cull any birds that are lacewing for at least one whole year

6IX , birds with dominant trates if they are better or have the quality i need can be used and then sorted out at latter date as these birds if the trate incorporates into the visual form of lacewing can still be used as a stud bird

 

well im very thank you to you for your time and your effort

im hopeing others got out of this as much as i have

i know one thing

i do tend tolean towards the old show look but to me thats the birds i like

more type y

i will over time corporate these more cat like rounded feature's latter on in my stud i am really still just playing and learning how to get diffrent things into each bird

i feel i may still be a tad green behind the ears when it comes to wha ta good birds actually is

but thats so hard to deturman as so many diffrent judges out their with diffrent veiws on things

 

im happy i now understand where my birds truley lack thank you

and do belive i have the right birds to incorporate whats needed

to one day have quality consistent birds when features and feather are involved

 

 

i wont post anymore pics as i have almost 100birds i could ask you about

your a

 

 

i think im going to add mylacewing pairrings into this thread in future and that way i canget your comments were im going and if im actually heading in the right place or if i may be going to make a big boo boo

if you dont mind

not the whole

lot eggs tochicks

just pairs im considering pairring

would you be happy to comment if i did this

and if something was vry wrong then let it be known so i dont go back from where i get to

obviously my green opaline pairring was my first serrious atempt at improving on my lacewings

 

this has been very interesting and knowledgeable

again my thanks :bow:

Sounds fine!

 

Just send me a PM when you have updated otherwise there's a good chance I'll miss it!

 

As to your points I agree with everything except for seperating your birds into 3 groups, just be mindful of the traits that you need. For me at the moment I'd be trying to plonk more feather (top blow, face features, feather length into you line of lacewings. Use those birds from your stud that you identify as having the best of those features and pair them to the best overall lacewing or split lacewing you have. Do that with as many pairs as you can going from best to second best etc etc and then when all those chicks are 12 months old assess them for those ones that closest match the bird that you want.

 

I do feel you have to train your eye a little (not trying to be nasty or harsh) and that's why I suggested making sure that at every show, try and get a good look at the winning birds. Look at the features and compare them to your birds. What needs improving in your birds. Try not to get "aviary blind" - only being able to see your own birds.... hard to describe but people tend to get fixed into their head what they have in their aviary already and stop really LOOKING at other birds. This is why I first started stewarding at shows 10 yrs ago - so that I could always see what birds were getting picked and sometimes even get the chance to ask why - hone your eye! Grab someone who you know is a judge or is known to have a very good eye and ask them WHY a certain bird might have won. Not that you are being critical but that you want to really learn and hone your eye for a good bird. I'm in no way suggesting that you don't HAVE an eye for a budgie already just that I think you need to be able to see the potential that each of your OWN birds might have in your stud.

 

Good luck, you know I'm always willing to let you know my opinion on a certain pairing and just be patient! If you keep going methodically you should start to see your stud developing.

Sounds fine!

 

Just send me a PM when you have updated otherwise there's a good chance I'll miss it!

 

As to your points I agree with everything except for seperating your birds into 3 groups, just be mindful of the traits that you need. For me at the moment I'd be trying to plonk more feather (top blow, face features, feather length into you line of lacewings. Use those birds from your stud that you identify as having the best of those features and pair them to the best overall lacewing or split lacewing you have. Do that with as many pairs as you can going from best to second best etc etc and then when all those chicks are 12 months old assess them for those ones that closest match the bird that you want.

 

I do feel you have to train your eye a little (not trying to be nasty or harsh) and that's why I suggested making sure that at every show, try and get a good look at the winning birds. Look at the features and compare them to your birds. What needs improving in your birds. Try not to get "aviary blind" - only being able to see your own birds.... hard to describe but people tend to get fixed into their head what they have in their aviary already and stop really LOOKING at other birds. This is why I first started stewarding at shows 10 yrs ago - so that I could always see what birds were getting picked and sometimes even get the chance to ask why - hone your eye! Grab someone who you know is a judge or is known to have a very good eye and ask them WHY a certain bird might have won. Not that you are being critical but that you want to really learn and hone your eye for a good bird. I'm in no way suggesting that you don't HAVE an eye for a budgie already just that I think you need to be able to see the potential that each of your OWN birds might have in your stud.

 

Good luck, you know I'm always willing to let you know my opinion on a certain pairing and just be patient! If you keep going methodically you should start to see your stud developing.

 

 

no afence taken

i do ask questions of everyone lol

i think i drive most of them nuts just ask pt(chookbreeder) he will tell you

itake my cam to every show and i got regardless of if i have birds or not

and its been the not part mostly lol

when i said seperate i mean to see what you ment lol not to breed them that way

sorry im not to good at explaining me

i relize its a time thing and i got that plenty of it

i am going to do okay

im not fully competitive i do it more for me but am like i said getting my stud up first before i show

thanks again and yep will let you know when i post pair for opinion

:bow:

Loving this whole thread by the way. Great to read your comments nubbly. Two thumbs up!

okay all - this is a work in progress. GB asked if I can critically assess her lacewings so I asked her to post up any bird she thinks she might use as well as some comments about background and why she thinks it's a good choice. She has asked me to be harsh if needed so please don't be offended by any of my comments.

 

If you think of something that can be added to help please do!

 

okay GB first things first - hens are often hard to come by and things happen to them during the breeding season. Aim to keep 1/3 to 1/2 as many hens as cocks. When you go to pair up choose your best and work down if there is something not working with a particular hen. Also you will need good normal hens and cocks for outcrossing. I prefer normal hens (not opaline or cinnamon) as I know she will not be split for either but will use a good cinnamon opaline if it's a good bird and I want something of the features in my lacewings. If you are breeding whites I'd stick more to the grey lines as blues tend to lend more suffusion which you do not want.

 

So to the hen. To me her mask is acceptable if I were to put her to a longer masked cock bird. Her real drawback to me is the backline as you said but it's not a dip in the back, she is more heavy in the rump and cuts off sharply under the perch. She is what I would call a "dumpy" hen. Her head feather is a bit disappointing though. Knowing the cock she came from you need to choose as buffy a hen as you can for him as he too is more fine feathered. This hen to me lacks on the top but has nice enough width. Just needs more feather on top. Depending on what other hens you have, I would be tempted to hold onto her as a 2nd line hen.

 

 

when you say this nubbly do you mean to pair best to best or do you mean

say i have three hens and 3 cocks two great two avrage andto very avrage

do you mean pair best to best avrage to avrage andlastly very avrage to very avrage

or should you put best to av and best to av in both first to pairs and justkeep outher two not so spesh ones in case something goes wrong ????sorry

okay all - this is a work in progress. GB asked if I can critically assess her lacewings so I asked her to post up any bird she thinks she might use as well as some comments about background and why she thinks it's a good choice. She has asked me to be harsh if needed so please don't be offended by any of my comments.

 

If you think of something that can be added to help please do!

 

okay GB first things first - hens are often hard to come by and things happen to them during the breeding season. Aim to keep 1/3 to 1/2 as many hens as cocks. When you go to pair up choose your best and work down if there is something not working with a particular hen. Also you will need good normal hens and cocks for outcrossing. I prefer normal hens (not opaline or cinnamon) as I know she will not be split for either but will use a good cinnamon opaline if it's a good bird and I want something of the features in my lacewings. If you are breeding whites I'd stick more to the grey lines as blues tend to lend more suffusion which you do not want.

 

So to the hen. To me her mask is acceptable if I were to put her to a longer masked cock bird. Her real drawback to me is the backline as you said but it's not a dip in the back, she is more heavy in the rump and cuts off sharply under the perch. She is what I would call a "dumpy" hen. Her head feather is a bit disappointing though. Knowing the cock she came from you need to choose as buffy a hen as you can for him as he too is more fine feathered. This hen to me lacks on the top but has nice enough width. Just needs more feather on top. Depending on what other hens you have, I would be tempted to hold onto her as a 2nd line hen.

 

 

when you say this nubbly do you mean to pair best to best or do you mean

say i have three hens and 3 cocks two great two avrage andto very avrage

do you mean pair best to best avrage to avrage andlastly very avrage to very avrage

or should you put best to av and best to av in both first to pairs and justkeep outher two not so spesh ones in case something goes wrong ????sorry :what:

 

Best to best so long as you are not doubling up on problems. Rank your cocks and rank your hens, then put the best cock with the best hen but make sure they compliment each other. The second best to second best. That's a bit of a simplistic way of looking at it I suppose - espcially in your case where you are starting off with different birds from different breeders so I'll temper that by saying - rank your birds - cocks and hens and choose the best cock and then starting at what you think is the best hen, see if you think they are complimentary. If they double up on faults (both big but no feather for example) work down the line of hens until you find a hen that suits the cock. Does that make sense?

My thoughts on looking at birds,to try

& pr them up,is something,you either have it or you don't.

It is not something that you can learn out of a book,you have

to be able to look at a bird & see the good & the bad points &

know,what you will have to put together, to get an improvement

in the off spring, some times it works & a lot of times it dos'nt.

It is a matter of getting the prs that click together& as Nubby said,

you have to be able to look at your birds & say,yes that is an improvement,

on the parents & not just look at it & say,gee that pretty, because pretty,

is not, going to breed you good show birds. :what:

My thoughts on looking at birds,to try

& pr them up,is something,you either have it or you don't.

It is not something that you can learn out of a book,you have

to be able to look at a bird & see the good & the bad points &

know,what you will have to put together, to get an improvement

in the off spring, some times it works & a lot of times it dos'nt.

It is a matter of getting the prs that click together& as Nubby said,

you have to be able to look at your birds & say,yes that is an improvement,

on the parents & not just look at it & say,gee that pretty, because pretty,

is not, going to breed you good show birds.

yes mate i know

i have a good idea what im doing

i just wanted to know where to go with the lacewings as their so much more harder togethold of good ones

nubbly has given me some great tips and advice

and we will over time see ifi have it or not :redalbino: but weather i do or dont im a stayer im in it for the long hall intill i get it right

i dont read many books as they really as so diffrent

i am brushing up on my genetics and trying to learn how to instill trates

i do have it macka i know that

what i may not have is confidence that i do know what im doing

as i said im working on my stud so may be a while till i hit the show bench but who knows

when i do then you can come tell me in person if im doing any good or weather i need to keep trying :what: but either way id be grateful for your imput

and never take e fence

That's what clearwing made me do awhile ago. Pick my best 12 cocks in order of what I thought was the best downward to least best and 24 hens in order to.. if I had 24 hens :what:

 

I found it hard because I have quite a few exceptional cocks and I had to pick in order drove me nuts, so then I had to work if any needed anything to improve them, so buy doing this I was on my way.

 

Like for example my violet cocks have really good heads and directional feather but they can do with more shoulder (that is why I was after Sheppard bird as good shoulder.

That is why last year I bought that hen at the Laveton Auction she is a A Hows hen, she is a large framed hen with good shoulder but she doesn't have much above the head. But still a nice hen.

But so far I am happy with 3 violet hens I have got so far especially the cinn opaline violet hen . they are down again with about 8 eggs but so far only 3 look fertile. drat.

 

One of the babies

The hen from the auction(mother)

Father my violet

 

 

This is my split lace wing I got from the same auction, he was bred by Owen Haddick but I have since sold him to a friend of Geoffs as I am not worring about different varietys at the moment, i still need to focus on my birds I have here

 

Gb this cock is the full brother your spangle hen, out of the same nest.

Edited July 1, 201014 yr by splat

well i just love all mine and got them all for different features

so just one big puzzle

to peaice together

i try everyday to bring it down to just 5 best birds in my cocks and 10 in my hens

mmmmmmm lol i dont think i got ten hens :what:

 

 

oh hes special you still have him

as his neice is here

i recon we could work something out

only we would need to toss a coin at who has the birds at their house as ive been burnt and you wouldnt want to risk your boy off your stud i doubt

but wow the chicks they would produce

when shes older

 

 

shes not long from the nest and man shes built

Edited July 1, 201014 yr by GenericBlue

It's hard hey. :what:

It's hard hey.

well mate time will tell

i know i can trust you

its just the things that can go wrong i have trouble wondering if she was here could i have saved her or as with you mabe visa versa

all i know is

im going to bet best cock ican to that hen i got from you and when i do if i get a good result somethings comming your way mate thats a promise

 

read that every one

 

reason being if wasnt for you breeding her i wouldn't have her and mate you need to keep that line not just for you butsoi can get out cross to same blood in future :what: see so if i can help you

you may be able to help me

or not either way you still deserve a good chick from that gal she is a stormer of a hen

just not massive in size but in everything else shes a perla and proven her worth already with just one chick shows what the right cock can do

splat this is the cock im putting to your hen

when shes ready

hes only 010 so plenty of time

 

 

 

 

 

what do you think

or do you think i need better ???

 

 

i will wak them in a show cage together if you like so you can see

Edited July 2, 201014 yr by GenericBlue

Yes wack them both in the show cage and then we can , Nubbly what do you think.

 

That baby is that the one they bred from your splat girl. very nice.

 

She is looks big is she, is that cock a good size as I feel you need a good size cock over her.

Yes wack them both in the show cage and then we can , Nubbly what do you think.

 

That baby is that the one they bred from your splat girl. very nice.

 

She is looks big is she, is that cock a good size as I feel you need a good size cock over her.

hes not small

hes still a baby though

2010 as i said only done first molt

i will put them in show cage together for you to see

the bird that was put with her was no bigger than him same shape look only the boy she produced that baby with was breed from some super birds and he had german tank shoulders lol

if it comes down to it i will go back to the stud and buy a cock for her i may need to save a fair bit though

Lets have a look GB!

 

If you have to go and buy something else, at least put her to the bestest cock you have in the mean time. She is super and very important for you to try and get some of the genetics she has made available to you so that you can continue her quality through your stud.

GB don't forget the yellow face DF spangle is a full sister and the cobalt hen is neice on the mothers side and uncle on the fathers side, so the violet hen is in bother her parents. And the dk green hen is an aunty she is ot of the violet hen too. They don't have the head or feather she has but like you said it's in their gentics.

GB don't forget the yellow face DF spangle is a full sister and the cobalt hen is neice on the mothers side and uncle on the fathers side, so the violet hen is in bother her parents. And the dk green hen is an aunty she is ot of the violet hen too. They don't have the head or feather she has but like you said it's in their gentics.

yep i remember its all jotted down thank you though

GB don't forget the yellow face DF spangle is a full sister and the cobalt hen is neice on the mothers side and uncle on the fathers side, so the violet hen is in bother her parents. And the dk green hen is an aunty she is ot of the violet hen too. They don't have the head or feather she has but like you said it's in their gentics.

yep i remember its all jotted down thank you though

i will get picture tomorrow of them in show cage together as was out today and just got in

so as my chicks have now grown up and left the nest i was wondering how nubbly would judge them if they were her own

so i have put the pics of them flegded here

it would be cool if the whole jernal could be in this thread but im not sure how to link it sometimes i remember but todays not one thoughs days lol so

i will just post pics of chicks and dad as hes still with them and still giving supliment feeds what i like to see

 

chick one

 

chick one and two ,..twos on right

 

 

chick three

 

 

 

 

chick two in back left , chick three in middle ,chick one in front

 

 

chick one at front and two and dad

 

chick three and two

 

 

being fed

 

 

 

 

 

the three fosters are still in and out the nest

will get pics soon

and as soon as someone posts i will put up picture of my latest addition new lacewing chick hatched last night to my other split lacewing pairing i had up

only two fertile eggs out of three so that was good odds i think

They looks very cute.

 

My post means we get to see the latest addition as well right?

Nubbly has much like. I REALLY like chick #2 - is that the one you preferred initially GB? She has nice feather and strength to match it. Maybe just a bit lacking in backskull and could be a bit longer...? Hard to tell though. My least favorite is chick 3. The big round eyes tells me she does not have the feather of her sister. But these guys can really change so hang in there and watch while they moult and develop. And the markings on all 3 of them are great. I would be extatic if I had bred chicks like this in my first few years of breeding exhibition budgies!

 

They will definitely be good show prospects and should complete well on the bench.

They looks very cute.

 

My post means we get to see the latest addition as well right?

 

 

yes as promised ,.... my new jellybean :D

 

 

 

 

 

yes two was my clutch baby pick

as you said head qualitys not fully what i expected

three was always a dead end in my eyes but as you said time these lacewings need 18 months

at least

one was my pick for being to thin and long

but had the head but seems rather good size across chest so fingers crossed

and wing marks im very pleased no thum prints

very cute little one