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My Lacewings And Working On A Line


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well when i started breeding show birds i wanted to breed for cinnamon lacewings and albino

so i wouldn't have much wastage of birds i breed and could work these together

so off i went and grabbed hold of some birds :(

 

here is what i have today as far as birds i can fit into a line of lacewings in my opinion :)

but then i really have no clue

so i have asked our nubbly 5 to please give me a good heads up on my birds and the good and bad points of each bird

:P

its time for me to become a bit more cautious as to how i do things

and as i still want to do my albinos im going to concentrate on both these variety every year

if thats possible i dont know just a thought i had

so here is my idea in brief

 

 

 

well this year i breed a bit of both albinos at start of year and lacewings

lacewings as we speak i tryed albinos but just one pair with a older / albino cock i got no albinos so

 

next years breading i may try concentrate on my lacewings first and albinos last :fear

 

 

but what i really need help with it my birds and choosing what i put into the lineand why

so ive asked nubbly 5 to be my on line lacewing mentor :) thanks for helping me nubbs hug:

 

 

so im going to be placing some pics up and i have asking nubbly 5 to criticize and praise each bird as SHE sees it

SO DONT THINK SHES BEING TO JUDGMENTAL I WANT HER TOTAL HONESTY

others are more than welcome to put input in

 

 

im hoping this being open can help others so feel free to ask questions to nubbly if you want it will all help maybe you will ask something i over looked to ask

so here bird one and a bit of history and my opinion on her

BIRD ONE

this hen i breed myself from my

opaline light green /lacewing cock gg-breed

x

a white lacewing hen ,bridie breed

ive since given the hen away due to i didnt see her as being the back bone to what i want to achieve however she was very nice bird

 

the chick : opaline light green hen out feb 2010

good points : her all over size is good her stance is nice but she seems to have major dip in back ,im not sure if you can get something like that out of a line

so this would be why i would not keep this hen

and the only reason

her mask is not long but shes yet two molt for second time so this could change and she may drop her spots down

he has all the direction needed to provide a useful hen if her back line is not a major issue

 

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what do others see and please i will not be a fended

im trying to asses my birds for all their aspects if ive missed something i want to know as im only learning and wont learn if im not told

even if im being to critical myself i need to know this cheers

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okay all - this is a work in progress. GB asked if I can critically assess her lacewings so I asked her to post up any bird she thinks she might use as well as some comments about background and why she thinks it's a good choice. She has asked me to be harsh if needed so please don't be offended by any of my comments.

 

If you think of something that can be added to help please do!

 

okay GB first things first - hens are often hard to come by and things happen to them during the breeding season. Aim to keep 1/3 to 1/2 as many hens as cocks. When you go to pair up choose your best and work down if there is something not working with a particular hen. Also you will need good normal hens and cocks for outcrossing. I prefer normal hens (not opaline or cinnamon) as I know she will not be split for either but will use a good cinnamon opaline if it's a good bird and I want something of the features in my lacewings. If you are breeding whites I'd stick more to the grey lines as blues tend to lend more suffusion which you do not want.

 

So to the hen. To me her mask is acceptable if I were to put her to a longer masked cock bird. Her real drawback to me is the backline as you said but it's not a dip in the back, she is more heavy in the rump and cuts off sharply under the perch. She is what I would call a "dumpy" hen. Her head feather is a bit disappointing though. Knowing the cock she came from you need to choose as buffy a hen as you can for him as he too is more fine feathered. This hen to me lacks on the top but has nice enough width. Just needs more feather on top. Depending on what other hens you have, I would be tempted to hold onto her as a 2nd line hen.

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so we pretty much agree with what she has wrong

okay so its not the back line its the bottom end

so as far as back line goes is she good ???

her mother had same cut off why i got ride of her

i didnt think it was the father :P

why he is with a quality hen now to see what he has

 

okay next hen

this hen is a grey cinnamon hen she is only been breed once but nothing came from it as had a big storm killed all eggs in shell very close to hatching so...

shes a sh9 breed hen with some class

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to me she sits nice

she has great deepth in her mask

her above head feather is of good height

shes a tad nipped in the feather around cere here lenghts good not as broard as the green opaline but still good size

shes the best normal i could find and still is to date :fear

 

what do you see

what type feather does she seem to have

also the opaline green whats her feather just a guess

 

 

also im not sure i got you with the hen to cock thing

the same of each

or 3 hens to one cock

or two to one ???sorry

Edited by GenericBlue
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okay hens to cocks - if you have 20 cocks, keep 30 hens (so half as many again). So people recommend twice as many (20 cock to 40 hens) but personally I thinks that's overkill.

 

The cin grey is a NICE stock hen very good stance, follows through quite nicely behind the perch, maybe a tad heavy in the wings, great mask, spot and good backskull but like you say a touch narrow across the cere. But overall a classier hen than the one above. Even if you were shy of cinnamon I would be using this hen before the top one. Anyways I think it's better to steere away from opaline where possible due to the opaline making the lacewing markings all smudgy and horrible.

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okay hens to cocks - if you have 20 cocks, keep 30 hens (so half as many again). So people recommend twice as many (20 cock to 40 hens) but personally I thinks that's overkill.

 

The cin grey is a NICE stock hen very good stance, follows through quite nicely behind the perch, maybe a tad heavy in the wings, great mask, spot and good backskull but like you say a touch narrow across the cere. But overall a classier hen than the one above. Even if you were shy of cinnamon I would be using this hen before the top one. Anyways I think it's better to steere away from opaline where possible due to the opaline making the lacewing markings all smudgy and horrible.

 

well what im planing on doing is breeding

normal black winged /lacewing cocks to either cinnamon or black wing hens

 

is that right

and any cinn/lacewings to black winged hens

 

okay

so i got one good bird YEA lol wings i can fix and i think shes just freightened as she took while to sit still :fear

 

okay next

this hen is a mp1 yf light green cinnamon opaline

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she is from very good breeding and produces way better than herself to any cock i have paired her two

she has enough direction feather around her face to inhance this into her chicks if the rich cock is provided

als she has good size in her overall size but smaller hen so needs good size cock bird

she sits nice and i love her posture

opaline is not bad either i like her line on her overal shape

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wings are a tad heavy but i can fix that

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she has sholders i think ??

 

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this is type hen i look for most time when i cant find a really good bird and find that they usually work good with most cocks

 

 

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Any bird that breeds better that themselves is gold (unless they are really shitty to begin with of course). That's why I always say that an average bird from a good stud is a better purchase than a top bird from an average stud. The average bird from a good stud will usually (not always of course but often) breed better than themselves - all that genetic potential in the background of the bird.

 

Yes this hen is nice enough but maybe a tiny bit small as you say - I find size and length just about the hardest thing to get into my birds. If you haven't already got it, it's hard to breed in. I also find that she doesn't quite roll all the way from the crown (top blow) down to the mantle which makes her look like she doesn't have as much backskull as you might want. Probably that she blows the top but not the nape. I'd like a touch more mask and spot but still a tidy hen. So far I'd still like to cin grey best, this one next then the dumpy one BUT if this girls chicks are better than the cin grey no matter who you pair her with then that tips the balance in her favour a bit as well as her better facial feathering.

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okay

had some tech probs their

 

 

okay so next i have my only lacewing hen of breeding age

shes 08

she to me lacks in most areas but thats as the lacewing hen i had first and got ride of in my opinion was a good size

this hen is better in wing marks and has some spots so a bonus :( not to bad in head qualitys but all in all around same quality of my own breed albino hens

she will be great though to upgrade in to split lacewings and she stands nice and again from good blood and stock so thats got to be a plus

i only aquired her recently

 

i guess all i can say bad about her is shes a lot smaller than i thought she would be

and not as much feather around the face as i thought or above the head

but nice hen and given her background i may actually be shoked when placed with the right type of cock

thats where you come into it nubbly

toimprove on this gal

what type of cock is needed

???

whats her good and bad points please

if any

 

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her she looks quiet nice

are my eyes in my a$^%$# with this bird :fear

 

tryed to get wing shot

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here shes more settled and looks nicer to the eye

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okay vertict please :)

 

 

um i dont know why their all side ways i did rotate them all :P do you need them again mate ????

Edited by GenericBlue
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Nope all good! Not sideways here - maybe you already edited.....

 

Nice hen, just needs a little bit more everywhere. The sort of bird you need to keep in your minds eye is this hen plus size and feather. Nice wing markings are good but never ever throw away a lacewing just because it has poor markings - throw one away if it is small AND has crappy wing markings but not for markings alone. Upscale her and add buffy feather and you are heading in the right direction. Probably just need to watch the backskull a bit on this one and maybe wants a bit more shoulder to really give her impact. Oh and to me she needs a bit more body. When you sit back and look at her she has a nice enough deep mask but looks a little unbalanced with a shortish body.

 

Go for buff feathered cock - normal preferrably as cinnamons have finer feather anyway with width, blow and backskull. Don't worry about split lacewing at this stage. If you are serious about improving your lw line you need to add into it from your best normals. Breed some splits from her and the hens can go into either line then too. Try not to sacrifice size but if you have to get width, blow and backskull in one bird and size in another thats okay too. Thats what building a line of birds is all about.

 

I worked on feather first and now on size without losing the feather but either way would be a problem - but as a judge I think you'd do better with typier smaller birds in novice classes than huge rough feathered older style birds. Might be wrong here so don't quote me but for me as a judge a well balance bird is better than a huge rough one but once you have the feather you want size is imperative if you want to get to the highest level.

Edited by nubbly5
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Nope all good! Not sideways here - maybe you already edited.....

 

Nice hen, just needs a little bit more everywhere. The sort of bird you need to keep in your minds eye is this hen plus size and feather. Nice wing markings are good but never ever throw away a lacewing just because it has poor markings - throw one away if it is small AND has crappy wing markings but not for markings alone. Upscale her and add buffy feather and you are heading in the right direction. Probably just need to watch the backskull a bit on this one and maybe wants a bit more shoulder to really give her impact. Oh and to me she needs a bit more body. When you sit back and look at her she has a nice enough deep mask but looks a little unbalanced with a shortish body.

 

Go for buff feathered cock - normal preferrably as cinnamons have finer feather anyway with width, blow and backskull. Don't worry about split lacewing at this stage. If you are serious about improving your lw line you need to add into it from your best normals. Breed some splits from her and the hens can go into either line then too. Try not to sacrifice size but if you have to get width, blow and backskull in one bird and size in another thats okay too. Thats what building a line of birds is all about.

 

I worked on feather first and now on size without losing the feather but either way would be a problem - but as a judge I think you'd do better with typier smaller birds in novice classes than huge rough feathered older style birds. Might be wrong here so don't quote me but for me as a judge a well balance bird is better than a huge rough one but once you have the feather you want size is imperative if you want to get to the highest level.

 

so you agree needs more

so splitting her is the best idea

cool as this is what i was going to do

can i ask

she is opaline isnt she ??

i have probblems with lacewings telling :fear

 

okay so i was going to split her to this boy

what do you think

only prob is hes opaline and hes yf but im fine with that

i can fix any problem that may acurre latter on

but i dont have many normals that are not split opaline

anyhow

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hes my ownly half decant sized bird with head and wighth

what you think and his chick come out with perfect Opaline

 

 

and incase your wondering my birds are all molting hence no tails on some and scruffylook

Edited by GenericBlue
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Well her wing markings were so uniform that I didn't actually think she was opaline but on closer inspection lack of head barring maybe sayd she is. Can you get a picture of her main tail feathers then I can tell you for sure.

 

He's not YF. He might be SPLIT for YF but he himself is a grey green opaline (maybe dark grey green). If you pair them together IF he is split for YF it's only going to be a problem if they are both split for YF or she is split for blue and then you might get a YF lacewing. Not essentially a problem if you are breeding birds to develop your stud but a bit of a problem if you wanted to show that bird.

 

He has that really nice deep yellow ground colour that you want to try and keep in your yellow lacewings so thats good. He IS better than her generally but still lacking the feather quality you need to find. He needs more blow and longer feathering. If he is the best you have at the moment then use him and assess the chicks. They may well produce something out of the square and they will be better than her most likely. In the meantime try and find a normal (any colour) that has long buff feathering. Something with more of a puff ball look to his top end (if that helps any!).

 

More like this:

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So far from what I can see your birds are all quite tight or fine feathered so that's probably what you need to buy in at some stage.

Edited by nubbly5
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i brought him as a grey green violet yf

i was under the understandings birds are or are not yf and you can not get a bird split for yellow face as its a semi dominant genetic

that they call it split for yf as they dont really know as hes green untill breeding

which when i breed him to my albino

i got a sky violet yf

and to my lacewing hen before she died she layed one egg i fostered it and got a yf violet from him their two

so

whos it work then please

i really need to understand this as i truley thought you were or werent yf unless df yellow facewhere your white but produce all yf which he does not

 

also im working on stud first shows at latter stage so yf not issue to me now

 

 

this was his daughter at five weeks

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his son also five weeks

 

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him in aviary

 

 

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so what does he lack

i can see that yes he lacks feather and bit of height

i thought his face was okay

 

her is his other son

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but again to a very lacking hen

 

 

so all in all my stud so far lacks feather

yes i can see that

i guess i have been trying to work on putting the variety back into the variety if that makes scenes

well i have your boy but he is split lacewing

 

 

 

 

what about this

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this boy might be split though to lacewing not sure only maybe

 

 

we just dont get sold birds like one you showed me

as thats what people keep

even if you have the money

even auction doesnt offer birds like that

Edited by GenericBlue
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Green yf and blue all occur on the same allele - only 2 genes can be present on any 1 allele. Also green is dominant to YF and YF is dominant to blue ...... hang on just go and re-read the Great YF Symposium again will you! I can't really be bothered to type it all out again. In short he can be split for YF or he can be split for blue. Think of it like the Greywing, Clearwing, Dilute series.

 

Just sneaking off for dinner will look at birds after okay?

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Green yf and blue all occur on the same allele - only 2 genes can be present on any 1 allele. Also green is dominant to YF and YF is dominant to blue ...... hang on just go and re-read the Great YF Symposium again will you! I can't really be bothered to type it all out again. In short he can be split for YF or he can be split for blue. Think of it like the Greywing, Clearwing, Dilute series.

 

Just sneaking off for dinner will look at birds after okay?

thread will be here when your ready i dont expect awnsers straight up

 

okay i will cheack out the yf thread once again :D

i thought i had it down pat dam :D

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okay so he is split for yf! If he breeds yf babies you know that but he is not split for blue. He can have only 2 genes on that allele - you can see the green one, he has bred yf so the other gene on that allele is YF. Any birds he breeds that are NOT green will be yf. His face is okay but without that longer feather he just hasn't quite got what you need. He will IMPROVE what you've got in the hen you showed me for sure BUT you will still need some more feather as you progress.

 

The cin grey cock is better as far as feather but he goes straight up from the cere. Still a useful bird in your stud. If he is split for lacewing put him with a strong normal hen and hope for some hen chicks. If you are unsure, put him with a lacewing hen.

 

I get that it's really hard to buy birds with feather like that BUT you CAN buy lesser birds from studs with that sort of feather. Henry George, Mark Chidel, Ian Hanington etc. Many lesser birds from studs such as these will give you some chcks with longer courser feather and then you can use those. Look closely at the AVERAGE bird from consistantly strong studs. You can do this at your local club level. Look at what studs CONSISTENTLY show the sort of features that you like be it feather quality etc and then approach that breeder for lesser culls AND USE THOSE CULLS don't just send them on their way coz you think they are too small or not marked enough. Use them on your best hens and you should get SOMETHING you can use. Not everything is going to be super duper though and selecting out the best is important. In this way you can get great improvement without spending huge $. You need to be observant. Take picture at shows and analyse the feather type. If something catches your eye, look for that studs birds next time - is the feature consistant or improving - try and get a lesser cull. If not then don't waste your $ chasing after birds without the background that you need.

 

And variety is variety - at the moment the standard says 60 points to TYPE, 25 points to colour 15 points to markings. Focus on type formost whilst still trying to keep the variety as much as possible but don't sacrifice a good TYPE bird for a good variety bird. Trying to get both is the optimum but not always what happens. Until that standard is changed don't throw out the baby with the bath water. UNLESS you don't want to be competitive and that's okay too but then why bother breeding exhibition budgies at all?! Retorical question there.

 

Hey and after that preaching session, remember, this is just my way of doing things and I'm sure there are others more experienced who also have some great advise they can lend.

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Yes That is what I have been trying to do. Breed type and then variety.

 

I believe I am getting there.

 

Gb Gina is right breed the bird first (type and size feather etc ) then worry about variety.

 

I was talking to a breeder and judge the other day, talking about birds and saying I do not want cinnamon or opaline and he said don't worry about variety worry about type and get the bird on the show bench.

But then I said I differently don't want a cinnamon cock because they are taking over. I don't want to breed anymore cinnamon spangles as you judges don't like them and he replied some do some don't but if a bird is good a judge will put them up because of their type etc. cinnamon or not.

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okay so he is split for yf! If he breeds yf babies you know that but he is not split for blue. He can have only 2 genes on that allele - you can see the green one, he has bred yf so the other gene on that allele is YF. Any birds he breeds that are NOT green will be yf. His face is okay but without that longer feather he just hasn't quite got what you need. He will IMPROVE what you've got in the hen you showed me for sure BUT you will still need some more feather as you progress.

 

The cin grey cock is better as far as feather but he goes straight up from the cere. Still a useful bird in your stud. If he is split for lacewing put him with a strong normal hen and hope for some hen chicks. If you are unsure, put him with a lacewing hen.

 

I get that it's really hard to buy birds with feather like that BUT you CAN buy lesser birds from studs with that sort of feather. Henry George, Mark Chidel, Ian Hanington etc. Many lesser birds from studs such as these will give you some chcks with longer courser feather and then you can use those. Look closely at the AVERAGE bird from consistantly strong studs. You can do this at your local club level. Look at what studs CONSISTENTLY show the sort of features that you like be it feather quality etc and then approach that breeder for lesser culls AND USE THOSE CULLS don't just send them on their way coz you think they are too small or not marked enough. Use them on your best hens and you should get SOMETHING you can use. Not everything is going to be super duper though and selecting out the best is important. In this way you can get great improvement without spending huge $. You need to be observant. Take picture at shows and analyse the feather type. If something catches your eye, look for that studs birds next time - is the feature consistant or improving - try and get a lesser cull. If not then don't waste your $ chasing after birds without the background that you need.

 

And variety is variety - at the moment the standard says 60 points to TYPE, 25 points to colour 15 points to markings. Focus on type formost whilst still trying to keep the variety as much as possible but don't sacrifice a good TYPE bird for a good variety bird. Trying to get both is the optimum but not always what happens. Until that standard is changed don't throw out the baby with the bath water. UNLESS you don't want to be competitive and that's okay too but then why bother breeding exhibition budgies at all?! Retorical question there.

 

Hey and after that preaching session, remember, this is just my way of doing things and I'm sure there are others more experienced who also have some great advise they can lend.

 

 

i totally get what your saying

i at moment are consentrating on bettering my stud

before bothering to even try show something i know wont even be looked at so to speak

yes their will be ones along the way i can place on show bench

but im trying to work on my stud fors i suspect this may take a few years

i know all about tossing out a good bird a i sold one mymost important peaces to my lacewing line

how ever im very lucky to beable to get him back

i was not to well at the time and also bit undesided as to what i was breeding for

i figure if i had good splits why keep a smaller visual :D i learnt that lesson twice now :rofl:

but im thankful to be getting an important peace of my stud back :rofl:

 

i do take pics at all shows

and i do look to my fav studs for lesser birds

and i do stick to only few studs

but i have found that in eccence this is fine

but in reality

i need jut at least two maybe 4 good birds

as you said with good feather

 

i do have a few with these qualitys but nothing i can put to lacewings

i got this boy of yours he has a bit better quality than my other birds his face is a defenent better quality than my others

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hes split lacewing and blue

i have his half bro also still

as far as birds with feather qualitys their about all i got

i have some nice birds but the 4 birds i got from you are the best feathered birds

a part from a yf cobalt i was gifted and another few i have but as i said cant go into a lacewing line

 

so

where do i go from here

do i cull back my cocks that are not really any good

although their lines are good

or do i try them first

 

my lines inclued

borg n skivington birds

paoli birds

flanagan birds

house birds

rowe brothers birds

 

all these breeders have similar blood lines

kk

mcvilly

watson n manis

gazzard

and flanagan n sheppard running through their stock

all my birds are from their lesser stock

and nothing over 20 thirty each usually give or take the 50 dollar bird

i found all the birds i payed more for did nothing for me and or i didnt like as much as my cheeper lesser stock with bit better quality in features

 

i do feel that if i do not find something better than whats around i may just have to pay something rediculous

i tryed to at the auction but fate would not let me :D

nor would my pocket

 

 

and only a odd one from here and their eg splat and a few gifted but these ones are the ones with the feather just not the varierty needed to breed my lacewings why i almost gave them up

 

 

here is other birds i have but i dont think i can use in my lacewings

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the grey is / ino so hes out

the spangles out

i could use the light green opaline boy

would he be good for the lacewing hen

hes not overly large but a cf1 breed cock so from good stud

 

this hens spangle so not good my lacewing line

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but shes got the face

this splats breed hen

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and of course i have your boy

hes breeding at moment

 

 

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and thanks very much to lealotta

the beautiful sherbet is to return home soon

we are going to do a swap for something she can use in her stud from mine shes decided on my yf sky violet /ino /op /cin boy chick

thankyou lealotta

im very greatful to you

he is part of the back bone to my lacewing breeding success if im to succeed in them at all

im deturmin too

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i can of course use your boys but im not sure how to do this best

im compleatly lost

all my good hens are spangles

i got your boy to a spangle now

i bet i get a spangled lacewing gr

Edited by GenericBlue
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Im glad nubbly wrote that about greens being split YF. Its absolutely spot on about the alleles etc. If a green bird is split, it can only be split for 'blue' OR yellowface. It is is split yellowface then all the blue babies it throws can only get the yellowface from him so he will only ever through greens and yellowface blues when paired to blue hens.

 

I've heard many times that this is not possible or blah blah, but I know the genetics work that way and im glad to have finally seen a living example of it. Might have to remember this thread as proof lol. Thanks gb and nubbly!

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okay so with what you have there you can really get stuck into breeding some laces and splits. You probably don't need anything extra right now unless you can get hold of a nice visual hen or 2 - but you need to decide what resources you want going into the laces. Personally I WOULD have a go with the spangles as they are the best birds you have shown me so far. Spangle is only an issue in that the combo is not allowable BUT you will KNOW if it is there or not due ot the spangle markings and cheek patches. Dominant varieites are not too hard to deal with at least they are there or they are not, they don't hide away in recessive form.

 

With the birds you have here I would go for putting the blue spangle with your visual lace hen and trying to get bigger better feathered birds. Any normal splits keep, the VERY best spangle splits keep and any normal or spangle hens will be fine. You only need to discard the lesser spangle/lacewings. Then pair the best splits with either a different visual hen or a strong normal hen, maybe even a sister if they breed some nice hens (don't double up on spangle though). If you could use a sister or half sister (from same cock) back to a split bred from these parents you will start to cement the features of the cock bird whilst adding lacewing.

 

The spangle hen is a ripsnorter and well worth using too - Nice one Splat!. I would put your BEST split with her. Again the spangle will only be an issue if you get a spangle lacewing hen. But if its a good one it'll still be an okay stock hen. Otherwise as above keep any normal lacewing hens and any normal split cocks, be careful about the spangle split cocks but they aslo are useful if they are strong birds. Again pairing splits back to sisters or half sisters (from the same hen) will concentrate the genetics of the hen line back into your lacewing line.

 

With the lesser birds, pop the cinnamon opaline lt green hen with my grey green cock. He has coarser feather but is narrower and she is fine feathered but wider. Hope for some lace hens.

 

The cinnamon grey green is wider but lacks spot. Find him as good and course feathered a normal hen as you have (opaline okay too) and try to get some of those face features. Again hope for some lace hens.

 

Sherbert is small and fine feathered so needs something bigger, maybe the dumpy hen is worth a try with him or even the cin grey hen to at least get some splits and hens to go on with. I would see how he breeds with some better quality hens and if he does not give you better birds than himself, give him back to lealotta. But he will give you all visual hens and you do need more visuals to work with.

 

Make sure you keep all visual laces for AT LEAST 12 months. They do develop more slowly than other varieties. I didn't think all that much of the boy that ran 3rd at the Nats until he had gone through his baby moult and then a full adult moult. These guys are quite surprising as to how much they change.

 

Another bit of good advise I have been given is to "Never sell your tools". You need lacewings to start with so get and keep the best visuals you can and work your best normals into them. Only when you have an excess of visuals would I ever consider selling any. I never sold any visuals for quite a long time and now it's only very select ones that I think I can definitely live without or have bred well from.

 

Does this all make any sense?

 

But this is concentrating 100% on your lacewings and obviously you want to breed other varieties as well so maybe my advise here is too extreme. If you were to take the spangle out completely go for the coursest feathered biggest cock - normal or split to your visual hen. You do need visuals to breed on with as much as you need good splits too. Then pair the remaining split cocks to your better available hens. Try not to double up on faults whilst at the same time trying to cancel out whatever fault each bird might have.

 

The finer feathered cinnamons try and pair with courser feathered normals. Try not to put 2 fine feathered birds together. You get nice neat birds but the feather length decreases and you don't really progress.

 

Damn! I'm giving away all my trade secrets :D

Edited by nubbly5
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:D thanks nubbly

i do understand and im glad we did it hear as i can print it out

:D

i got a few more birds upmy sleave

i got side tracked

okay here is a lacewing cock i just got

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and a young nest feather hen she is bigger than the adult lacewings and solid

 

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here is a youngnest feather cock also i have just got resently

but both very young

cant be breed for long time

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hes a bit heavy on the wing but then he was not settled in

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what you think of them three the first one is an 08 cock

 

other two are 010 not sure they have molted as yet even

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a split lacewing cock

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and ....

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I like the top cock. He is very much like the Lynn Ray Cock bird that I first bought to put with my petshop type lace hens. He sits a bit short on the perch but will be handy for you to use for sure. Might need to leave the rest for tomorrow if you don't mind. Got a migrane aura that is causing havock with my vision at the moment. Post more pics if you like and I'll comment on them all tomorrow. Sorry about that.

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GB and Nubbly, I just wanted to pop in and say that this thread is awesome! Between the pictures and your back and forth dialogue, even I am able to learn what it is you are both looking for, and what kind of strategy a show budgie breeder needs to use to gradually improve their stud. It almost makes me wish I could do more than just a handful of pet breedings. But I will never be able to own so many birds, so I will just have to live vicariously through you guys, and be an "armchair" show breeder. :D

 

Who ever thought that budgie breeding would be a spectator sport?! :D

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I like the top cock. He is very much like the Lynn Ray Cock bird that I first bought to put with my petshop type lace hens. He sits a bit short on the perch but will be handy for you to use for sure. Might need to leave the rest for tomorrow if you don't mind. Got a migrane aura that is causing havock with my vision at the moment. Post more pics if you like and I'll comment on them all tomorrow. Sorry about that.

darl i didnt expect you todo this all in one day

you did so much for me

im starting to understand what im doing wrong

im sure by end of this ill have what faults i keep choossing in my birds knuckled out

so far

i look at the finer bodyed birds

ive relized

any day your readt does not need to be tomorrow

you just take your time

i thank you so much

imhopeing to cut my stock back and this is going to helpme decide where and how and what

 

i to am in brain ach land

im going to try to sleep as i have not been ableto of late

i will put more pice myself another day

would apreshiate when you havetime to comment on allthe birds the cinn / lw boy too i really want to know my birds good and bad points thats the thing i am byest about abit :D

thank you

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This thread is also helping me with my birds :bow:

Splats and Nubbly5s birds that you have are very nice and your lucky to find someone to help you out with such fine birds.

I can also see where my birds are lacking, and what I need to buy in to improve my stud, but as you said where do find these birds

and who will sell them to people like me B) Even at Auctions I get priced out of birds of this quality :D

 

Thanks GB and Nubbly5 ;)

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okay back again!

 

As I said I quite like the top cock bird although he looks a little short and doesn't stand off the perch (often the picture anyway). I purchased a cock bird very much like him from Lynn Ray (a well known LW breeder from the past) when she had to get out of budgies due to bird breeders lung. He had a wonderful background and was very useful at improving my stud. This cock should be quite useful for you I think depending on his background. Pair him to a bigger but well balanced hen - normal would be good but even the light green cinnamon would be okay too she has the overall balance that suits him and she is a bit bigger (my opinion only). He will breed you some visual hens and split cocks.

 

To be honest I don't much like the 2 young birds. They are very narrow across the cere with nothing much on top (even if they are still nest feather) BUT if they are bigger you can add them in to start building that jigsaw puzzle - they are still visuals, it's just that you might have to work hard to pair them to the right birds to get something you can use out of them. I prefer the hen out of the pair as well she is still narrow without any top feathering but at least her deportment is good and her wing carriage is neat.

 

I quite like the cin/lw boy underneath he will be useful but again note that the top feather is lacking he needs blow and a bit more backskull as well as feather length but he is substantial, dark factored, has nice deportment and outline and will be very useful to you. A definite keeper. Again he is cinnamon so try and find a normal hen that has a bit of blow and top end feather. He has the substance that would be nice in a line of lacewings.

 

This thread is also helping me with my birds :bow: Splats and Nubbly5s birds that you have are very nice and your lucky to find someone to help you out with such fine birds.I can also see where my birds are lacking, and what I need to buy in to improve my stud, but as you said where do find these birdsand who will sell them to people like me B) Even at Auctions I get priced out of birds of this quality :D Thanks GB and Nubbly5 ;)

 

Taboo, the MOST expensive single bird I have ever purchased is $330 for a DF Spangle that never bred! Mostly I have purchased birds around the $100-200 mark. I think you can get away with it doing it this way IF you are careful in finding a bird that has something of what you need. If you try and go out and buy a bird that has everything a show budgie should have you WILL pay $000's. People with an unlimited cheque book can buy into the birds they want very quickly but I for one can't justify THAT amount of money on a bird. I think I have been able to bring my birds up to a good competitive standard without going nuts buying expensive birds. It might take longer but it's way less expensive and for me, WAY more satisfying to think that I can get there with lesser birds to work with.

 

As I have said before I will always try a bird that I have bought from a good stud even if it looks like it's just stepped out of a petshop. Skyblue Normal from Henry George auction is a case in point. If I had bred it, I would have been embarrased to sell it (no offence intended Henry!) and when I got it home I was disappointed but hey I spent a whole $100 on it. He has produced some of my best normal birds and given me the sort of feather I have been looking for. He is long since gone but his children, grand children etc are some of the better birds that I have. Maybe that's luck but maybe that's also understanding that birds such as these might not look like anything BUT they have a background that makes it worth giving them a try!

Edited by nubbly5
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This thread is also helping me with my birds :bow:

Splats and Nubbly5s birds that you have are very nice and your lucky to find someone to help you out with such fine birds.

I can also see where my birds are lacking, and what I need to buy in to improve my stud, but as you said where do find these birds

and who will sell them to people like me B) Even at Auctions I get priced out of birds of this quality :D

 

Thanks GB and Nubbly5 ;)

im glad this is helpping others as it helps me i thought it may be a good aproch to see where im going wrong and as im no good with com this was the easyest way to do this with nubbly

 

i was very lucky when nubbly put her culls on here that she went out of her way so much top help me get them and freaight them here

and i dont want to waste them why im trying to see where to go with them

im thinking two lines i can cross over into eachother at latter date

but i will ask about that latter on in my quest

 

 

yes i didnt know what it really was with the cin / boy but i knew i had to keep him

hes the first bird most people point to and say

got to go

 

okay so as far as the nest feathers go i didnt actually want to put them in to the line im breeding your birds into

i wanted to keep seperate line as i want to try keep the look your birds have

they are from very good stud im told

 

so will keep

 

theboy well he does have very good back ground so yes is one them birds that will achive me alot

im told he breeds alot better than himself

and the hen well im really not sure if i should put her in your line of birds or keep her in the other line with the nest feathers

 

here is the boy next to the cin grey hen

i thought i may add him tothe line im breeding fromyour boys

or should i cross his children over latter on ???

 

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and i have milton

he throughs very nice chicks

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hes split lacewing

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he had been plucked also in this picture

 

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hes short in the mask but his got the genetics to give some good chicks

im not sure what type of hen he needs though

and of course i have these sweeties whom are quiet nice size

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i will find some pics of my other birds

 

do you put light blue into lacewing lines

see i was under belief you only put dark factor

and as i want to start on the right foot

i dont want to be getting dark light and medium if i can help it

any thoughts on that

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