This next breeding season I want to intentially breed some Olives for my Lute line.

 

So please correct my theory:

 

Cobalt is the corner stone of Dark Factors

 

So to get Dark Green I bred a Cobalt to a Light Green (seem to have plenty of them )

 

And to get Olive I need to breed Dark Green to Dark Green, Correct?

 

(This is not a trick question, I am just starting out with my Dark Factor lines)

The Dark CharacterAs well as the colour gene being dominant or recessive, there is the inherited depth-of-colour gene call the "Dark Factor" and denoted by the letter "D". The dark gene is not responsible for colour in itself but will alter the depth of colour. It works independently of any other colour gene. The theory used to establish different shades of colour is known as the "Incomplete Dominance Theorem". The absence of the dark gene is denoted by "dd", it's presence as a single factor by "Dd"and in double factor by "DD".

Presence of the Dark Factor

Basic Colour

No Dark Factor Light Green Blue

(Light Factor)

dd One Dark Factor Dark Green Cobalt

(Medium Factor)

Dd Two Dark Factors Olive Mauve

(Dark Factor)

DD

 

 

 

The results and percentages of the mating and production of budgerigars with regard to the dark character is governed by the Mendelian Theory. It is important to realise when giving results in percentages, that the percentages are calculated over a wide number of different pairings of the same combination and not for a single nest. In doing so, the practical results will roughly agree with the theoretical expectation.

 

Therefore results of cross-mating with various shades of dark genes can be summarised as follows:

 

 

Pairings and Expectations - Dark Factor Pairings Expectations

DD DD 100 DD

 

DD Dd 50% DD

50% Dd

 

DD dd 100% Dd

 

Dd Dd 25% DD

50% Dd

25% dd

 

Dd dd 50% Dd

50% dd

 

dd dd 100% dd

As Splat has said, if you breed dark green (Dd) to dark green(Dd), you will get

 

25% Light green (dd)

50% Dark Green(Dd)

25% Olive(DD)

 

You then need to look at breeding the olive (DD) to either another olive (DD)or to another dark green(Dd).

 

This will mean that 50% of the offspring will be dark green(Dd) and 50% will be olive(DD).

 

The only way to guarantee olives(DD) is to breed olive(DD) to olive(DD).

The only way to guarantee olives(DD) is to breed olive(DD) to olive(DD).

 

its also the best way to get nothing but dd

Edited December 8, 200915 yr by GenericBlue

Renee to breed Olives is not as simple as it seems. You said you have bred a Cobalt with a Light Green which in turn as given you some Dark Greens. What you are not aware of is that those Dark Greens you have produced if paired together will only give you a 6.020% chance of breeding an Olive Split for Blue and a .490% of breeding giving you a total of 6.510% visual Olives. Reason for this to do with the linkage that exists between the Dark and Blue Factors.

Edited December 8, 200915 yr by RIPbudgies

Renee to breed Olives is not as simple as it seems. You said you have bred a Cobalt with a Light Green which in turn as given you some Dark Greens. What you are not aware of is that those Dark Greens you have produced if paired together will only give you a 6.020% chance of breeding an Olive Split for Blue and a .490% of breeding giving you a total of 6.510% visual Olives. Reason for this to do with the linkage that exists between the Dark and Blue Factors.

Actually I had an inkling of this, hence the post

 

Please can you explain further the linkage that exists between the Dark and Blue Factors.

Renee to breed Olives is not as simple as it seems. You said you have bred a Cobalt with a Light Green which in turn as given you some Dark Greens. What you are not aware of is that those Dark Greens you have produced if paired together will only give you a 6.020% chance of breeding an Olive Split for Blue and a .490% of breeding giving you a total of 6.510% visual Olives. Reason for this to do with the linkage that exists between the Dark and Blue Factors.

 

can i be a pain in the pervervial butt and get you to do a Pauline Hanson and ....please explain

when you have the time that is my dear freind

I tried to go further on my post but I just don't have time to explain tonight. Just been very busy and very tired and I don't think to well when I am tired.

Give a couple of days and I'll try and write something up for you guys.

 

GB....yes you can be a pain in the butt. After all the only stupid question is the one you don't ask.

I tried to go further on my post but I just don't have time to explain tonight. Just been very busy and very tired and I don't think to well when I am tired.

Give a couple of days and I'll try and write something up for you guys.

I await with baited breath

GB....yes you can be a pain in the butt. After all the only stupid question is the one you don't ask.

 

im the first to admit i am lol

but as you say it the only way to know if im right in the direction im going and thoughts i process already

as i said rip take time but cheers will love to hear your summory on it

Edited December 8, 200915 yr by KAZ

I was waiting for someone to mention the linkage disequilibrium that exists with the dark factor gene and I am very happy to have RIP take up the challenge and explain it rather than me. Or you can look it up in Taylor and Warner's book "Genetics for Budgerigar Breeders", chapter 4, page 30 - 36. And no Nubbly, the book doesn't acknowledge the existance of blackeyes - just dilutes!

Cheers

PT

I was waiting for someone to mention the linkage disequilibrium that exists with the dark factor gene and I am very happy to have RIP take up the challenge and explain it rather than me. Or you can look it up in Taylor and Warner's book "Genetics for Budgerigar Breeders", chapter 4, page 30 - 36. And no Nubbly, the book doesn't acknowledge the existance of blackeyes - just dilutes!

Cheers

PT

 

i been trying to find that book everywhere where can i get it pt or do i have to order specially

or is that the book i brought at the preston ubcs as if it is i gave it way as it told me nothing i didnt know

macka do you remember the one you comented one how it was good if you want to breed budgies by numbers ??? it was just a small book not to thick ???their was a few in a series

Edited December 8, 200915 yr by GenericBlue

I was waiting for someone to mention the linkage disequilibrium that exists with the dark factor gene and I am very happy to have RIP take up the challenge and explain it rather than me. Or you can look it up in Taylor and Warner's book "Genetics for Budgerigar Breeders", chapter 4, page 30 - 36. And no Nubbly, the book doesn't acknowledge the existance of blackeyes - just dilutes!

Cheers

PT

 

No need to wait for someone to mention it PT. Jump right in and give it a shot.

 

you are quie right about the book you mention which of course contains information based on the work Dr Duncker as well as Professors Crew and Lamy. It is an excellent book and worth putting into any budgie book collection. I sold my copy as I needed the money but I will be purchsing another to fill the hole. This copy as you rightly point out does not mention BES and the reason why is because this book is European based. They did not breed them there. They went off on a completely different tangent just as they have done with Greywings and Clearwings.

I think the simple way to look at the breeding for colour is.

it is worked out on 100 birds from that pair.Now I doubt

anyone is going to breed a 100 chicks,from a pair of birds,

So you may never breed say an Olive.

I was waiting for someone to mention the linkage disequilibrium that exists with the dark factor gene and I am very happy to have RIP take up the challenge and explain it rather than me. Or you can look it up in Taylor and Warner's book "Genetics for Budgerigar Breeders", chapter 4, page 30 - 36. CheersPT

I tried to go further on my post but I just don't have time to explain tonight. Just been very busy and very tired and I don't think to well when I am tired.Give a couple of days and I'll try and write something up for you guys.

I await with baited breath

Edited December 13, 200915 yr by renee

I was waiting for someone to mention the linkage disequilibrium that exists with the dark factor gene and I am very happy to have RIP take up the challenge and explain it rather than me. Or you can look it up in Taylor and Warner's book "Genetics for Budgerigar Breeders", chapter 4, page 30 - 36. And no Nubbly, the book doesn't acknowledge the existance of blackeyes - just dilutes!

Cheers

PT

 

And that's coz there isn't a seperate mutation!

I found in Dr Terry Martins Book - Part 1, pg 67 a couple of photo's with this caption: Above: Comparative photograph of the Dilute Budgerigar (L) and the version commonly exhibited which is actually a Cinnamon Dilute ®. Oh and guess what the photos show??? A dilute and a BES.

Sorry Renee but CB started the off topic and you know I can't resist the thrown down glove!

 

But more on topic! Gerald Bink's does have a section on it in his Challenge on Page 144. He talks about the Dark Green/blue as Type 1 and the Light Green/Cobalt as the Type 2. Due to the dark factor being associated with either the green or the blue gene. When these genes are rearranged in subsequent breeding the outcomes change. Pity he has not got an expectations table that I can copy coz stuff it if I'm going to sit down and calculate it out!

Edited December 13, 200915 yr by nubbly5

okay

Linkage disequilibrium is the association of linked alleles (sometimes called a haplotype) in a ratio that is different (greater) to what you would expect given the allele frequencies at the loci in question. This is usually caused by the 2 alleles in question being in close proximity on the same chromosome and as such tend to get inherited as a pair (haplotype). Sometimes during meiosis this link is broken as the chromotids cross over between these alleles. It is this linkage that causes the skewed phenotypic outcomes associated with what Nubbly referred to as type one and type two dark greens.

 

Type one dark greens are those where the dark factor is linked with the green allele and type 2 is where it is linked with the blue allele. Therefore type one dark greens that are split blue, when paired to skys will produce more dark greens and fewer cobalts and type 2 dark greens when paired to skys will tend to produce less dark greens and more cobalts.

 

In my time breeding fallows (and Ian Hannington's experience as well) we have never bred a grey fallow, despite grey splits being frequently used. It appears that the grey factor and the fallow gene rarely get inherited together. The non grey factor (normal?) allele and the fallow allele appear to be in strong linkage disequilibrium. But try finding reference to that one in any book!

 

It's a bit like Splat and her normal produced from a DF spangle. It's not the first time I have heard of that happening, although I have not experienced it. But it's genetically impossible - isn't it?

 

We still have a lot to learn - even about blackeyes!

 

"Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth" Marcus Aurelius (Roman Emperor) - very appropriate!

 

PT

okay

Linkage disequilibrium is the association of linked alleles (sometimes called a haplotype) in a ratio that is different (greater) to what you would expect given the allele frequencies at the loci in question. This is usually caused by the 2 alleles in question being in close proximity on the same chromosome and as such tend to get inherited as a pair (haplotype). Sometimes during meiosis this link is broken as the chromotids cross over between these alleles. It is this linkage that causes the skewed phenotypic outcomes associated with what Nubbly referred to as type one and type two dark greens.

 

Type one dark greens are those where the dark factor is linked with the green allele and type 2 is where it is linked with the blue allele. Therefore type one dark greens that are split blue, when paired to skys will produce more dark greens and fewer cobalts and type 2 dark greens when paired to skys will tend to produce less dark greens and more cobalts.

PT

I'm following you on the Type 1 and Type 2 Dark factor Greens.

 

My question is How can you breed a Type 1 and Type 2 Dark Green and Which combination produces more Olives?

Olives are more likely to come from type 1 dark greens. The problem is, you can't physically tell the difference between a type one and type two. If your dark green has been bred from a mauve it will be a type 2 and the chances of breeding an olive from a type 2 is rather low.

Type one dark greens are those where the green allele and the dark factor are linked and these tend to produce a higher proportion of olives.

My advice is, (in the absence of knowing if your bird/birds are type 1 or 2) if you have a dark green bird, pair it to a light green or even better another dark green and just keep selecting out the dark green birds - you might even crack an olive from the dark green x dark green pairing. If there are not many dark greens among the progeny, then your dark factor birds are most likely to be type 2. On the other hand, if you get a higher proportion of dark greens then you most likely have type 1 and breeding olives shouldn't be that hard.

Cheers

PT

Olives are more likely to come from type 1 dark greens. The problem is, you can't physically tell the difference between a type one and type two. If your dark green has been bred from a mauve it will be a type 2 and the chances of breeding an olive from a type 2 is rather low. Type one dark greens are those where the green allele and the dark factor are linked and these tend to produce a higher proportion of olives. My advice is, (in the absence of knowing if your bird/birds are type 1 or 2) if you have a dark green bird, pair it to a light green or even better another dark green and just keep selecting out the dark green birds - you might even crack an olive from the dark green x dark green pairing. If there are not many dark greens among the progeny, then your dark factor birds are most likely to be type 2. On the other hand, if you get a higher proportion of dark greens then you most likely have type 1 and breeding olives shouldn't be that hard. CheersPT

Now THAT is a good answer!~!! Thank You PT.

Just going back to what you described earlier about the difference between a Dark Factor Green 1 & 2:

okayType one dark greens are those where the dark factor is linked with the green allele and type 2 is where it is linked with the blue allele. Therefore type one dark greens that are split blue, when paired to skys will produce more dark greens and fewer cobalts and type 2 dark greens when paired to skys will tend to produce less dark greens and more cobalts.

My understanding is you HAVE to use Cobalt to Light Green pairing to produce a Dark Green DF1?I mean, put it this way, you need the DF Blue to make DF Green?!? RIGHT?

Edited December 15, 200915 yr by renee

Renee,

This is a little bit of chicken and egg stuff.

If you use a cobalt to a light green and produce dark green chicks, the dark factor will be on the same chromosome as the blue gene. More often than not, the dark factor gene will remain on that chromosome until crossing over takes place. This happens during meiosis when sperm and eggs are formed. Let's assume the dark green you have bred from your cobalt x light green paining is a cock. He will produce sperm that have:

a. the blue allele and the dark factor

b. the green allele and no dark factor

c. a small amount of sperm that have the blue allele and no dark factor

d. a small amount of sperm that have the green allele and the dark factor.

c and d are the result of crossing over during meiosis.

The chicks resulting from the d sperm will actually be type 1 dark greens because the dark factor has now crossed over and sits on the same chromosome as the green allele. However, you won't know that until you test mate them. This dark green split blue cock will also produce type 2 dark greens when paired to a light green as some of the offspring will inherit the dark factor and blue gene from the cock (the a sperm) and the green allele from the light green hen - giving you a visual dark green that will be type 2 . Unfortunately, most of the dark greens produced from this cock will be type 2.

Hope this makes sense.

Cheers

PT

Renee,

This is a little bit of chicken and egg stuff.

If you use a cobalt to a light green and produce dark green chicks, the dark factor will be on the same chromosome as the blue gene. More often than not, the dark factor gene will remain on that chromosome until crossing over takes place. This happens during meiosis when sperm and eggs are formed. Let's assume the dark green you have bred from your cobalt x light green paining is a cock. He will produce sperm that have:

a. the blue allele and the dark factor

b. the green allele and no dark factor

c. a small amount of sperm that have the blue allele and no dark factor

d. a small amount of sperm that have the green allele and the dark factor.

c and d are the result of crossing over during meiosis.

The chicks resulting from the d sperm will actually be type 1 dark greens because the dark factor has now crossed over and sits on the same chromosome as the green allele. However, you won't know that until you test mate them. This dark green split blue cock will also produce type 2 dark greens when paired to a light green as some of the offspring will inherit the dark factor and blue gene from the cock (the a sperm) and the green allele from the light green hen - giving you a visual dark green that will be type 2 . Unfortunately, most of the dark greens produced from this cock will be type 2.

Hope this makes sense.

Cheers

PT

Alas, it is crystal clear.

 

okay, back to the drawing board.

 

What are my chances if I pair a Dark Green to a Cobalt? Will the odds of a Dark Green DF1 increase and is this the best way to produce them?

I know I am not making this any better, but it will depend if it is a type 1 or 2 dark green. If it is type one you are more likely to get olives, if it is type 2 you are more likely to get mauves. The only way to find out is have a go!

Cheers

PT

I know I am not making this any better, but it will depend if it is a type 1 or 2 dark green. If it is type one you are more likely to get olives, if it is type 2 you are more likely to get mauves. The only way to find out is have a go!

Cheers

PT

Sorry if I appear particularly thick - BUT are you saying that a Cobalt to DF1 Green will produce Olives?!

Yes, if it's a type 1 Dk Grn/Bl (ie dk factor linked to green) then you will get Olives but few Mauves. Consequently if it's a type 2 DkGrn/Bl (ie dark factor linked to blue) then you will get Mauves but very few Olives. As CB9 says, just put them together and see what happens as you don't know what type you have yet.

 

The few Olives I've seen at auction have brought a decent price even if not outstanding in quality so there is a reasonable demand for them due to their usefulness in breeding varieties enhanced by the dark factor. Of course it's easier to breed double dark factor if you already have some.