December 4, 200915 yr ps: Heathrow might have a comment - he is a guru on dilutes and blackeyes! Very Funny Pete - I've breed a couple of Dilutes and never bred a Blackeye. Cheers H - just trying to draw you out of your cave!
December 4, 200915 yr Hi Kaz, Had a discussion about this with another judge that just happened to ring me last night and we talked about feet colour. Name wouldnt have been Rob by any chance
December 4, 200915 yr Cheers H - just trying to draw you out of your cave! Bloody big cave too Pete - Newborn baby, as well as 5 other kids, working full time plus i've gone back too uni part time. Always thought sleep was way overrated anyway. So non essential stuff (like birds) has had to take a bake seat for awhile.
December 4, 200915 yr Cheers H - just trying to draw you out of your cave! Bloody big cave too Pete - Newborn baby, as well as 5 other kids, working full time plus i've gone back too uni part time. Always thought sleep was way overrated anyway. So non essential stuff (like birds) has had to take a bake seat for awhile. How do you BAKE your budgies Heathrow ? Pluck em first, singe off the feathers, or just slow roast in their little skins
December 4, 200915 yr Cheers H - just trying to draw you out of your cave! Bloody big cave too Pete - Newborn baby, as well as 5 other kids, working full time plus i've gone back too uni part time. Always thought sleep was way overrated anyway. So non essential stuff (like birds) has had to take a bake seat for awhile. How do you BAKE your budgies Heathrow ? Pluck em first, singe off the feathers, or just slow roast in their little skins I like them slow cooked in the webber bbq served with red wine jus. They need to be free range though none of this supplemented with meat protein stuff. That's what lack of sleep does!!! Should read Back seat
December 4, 200915 yr They are sort of interchangeable as the genes that control blackeye, dilute, greywing, etc are all at the same locus. Chookbreeder, are you saying that there are actually 5, not 4, alleles on this locus? (Normal, greywing, clearwing, dilute, and now this "blackeye") I have never heard it explained that way before. Hi Finnie, Yes I know, the literature only talks about 4 alleles. I am guessing the problem is that there are few australian blackeyes in the northern hemisphere so not a lot of work has been done on them. Cheers PT Thank you, CB. I tried to do a search for black eyed self, and couldn't really find anything. (I'm technology challenged) There were a couple of interviews with BES breeders, and I came across the Standard, but nothing on the genetics of it. One reference mentioned that they were only found in Australia. Now, I'm not ready to take a side, yet, but if it were a matter of combining cinnamon with dilute, wouldn't they be found everywhere, and not be considered rare? Can any of you who are better at finding stuff locate some links or articles on this topic? Thanks, Finnie
December 4, 200915 yr http://www.budgerigar.com.au/5Cusack%20pro...Fwebversion.pdf He talks about breeding black eye to black eye, black eye to grey yellow, and black eye to suffused. Does anyone know specifically what he means by "grey yellow" and "suffused"? (i.e. are those types of black eyes, or types of some other mutation?) He talks like black eye is in danger of becoming extinct. That would rule out my making one by combining dilute with cinnamon. :rofl: Makes it sound like Linda's bird is desperately needed in the gene pool!
December 7, 200915 yr okay. I have been doing a bit of homework as well. The following is an excerpt from an article by John Mulley that can be found at http://www.bcsa.com.au/Articles/Clearwingmulley.htm "Perhaps this is the time to clarify the relationship between clearwings, greywings and blackeyes. These varieties are genetically allelic, arising from different mutations of the same gene. All are recessive to normals, with carriers(splits) the outcome of crossing to normals. However, clearwings and greywings are dominant to blackeyes(or stated differently, blackeyes are recessive to clearwings and greywings). Clearwings and greywings are co-dominant to each other: intercrossing gives full bodied greywings with features of both varieties(the wing markings of the greywing and the body colour of the clearwing). the three varieties(cleawings, greywings and blackeyes) are upgraded by outcrossing to normals in order to import features that are lacking. I know little about the fourth allelic variety, cinnamonwing yellows(not the same as blackeyed yellows), but do know that there is a light and dark form of greywing marking(with the darker wing dominant to the lighter wing) and there is a dilute gene which is expressed in only clearwings and greywings. Dilutes in either variety should go straight into the petshop and not be presented at shows; however, some say that sizable dilute clearwings crossed back to normal clearwings will clear the wings. The disadvantage of this strategy is that the dilute gene is inherited recessively and will further contribute to wastage in subsequent generations." I don't necessarily agree with John's opinion on dilutes, but... From http://www.budgerigar.com.au/hills/an_inte..._peter_dodd.htm Comments from Peter Dodd "6.What colour varieties do you avoid using to your Black Eyes and do you use many splits? If so, are they Normals or Cinnamons. I don't know that there are colours that I avoid but there are certain varieties that I think should not be considered, e.g. Fallow, Clearwing. Dominant pied. Recessive Pied and Greywing unless you want to breed Greywing Black-Eyed Selfs. The outcrosses I use to obtain splits include Normal. Opaline. Cinnamonwing and Cinnamonwing Spangle. I have no doubt that using Opaline hens is by far the best outcross but this creates a large wastage factor as Opaline Black Eyed Self colour can only be shown in the Normal Opaline Class and of course they have no chance of winning. It is only in the last couple of years that I have been using Spangle Cinnamonwings and results are looking very encouraging but once again there is the wastage factor as any spangle Cinnamonwing Black Eyed Selfs produced are not a Standard Variety. The bottom line here is that any outcrosses you use has to be the best bird in you aviary. There is no point in using second best." Why isn't he using dilutes to breed his blackeyes? He talkes about using cinnamons as an outcross and also states in the article that most blackeyes carry cinnamon. I bet that many carry the dark factor as well - so what! If the blackeye has to carry cinnamon, why use normals to outcross - just use good cinnamons and avoid the wastage? From the Wayne Cusack interview at http://www.budgerigar.com.au/5Cusack%20pro...Fwebversion.pdf "What are your typical Black Eyed pairings in a season? I breed 15 to 18 pairs a year. Most pairs are Black Eyed x Black Eyed, two or three are Black Eyed to Grey Yellow and two or three are Black Eyed to suffused birds." Why hasn't he got a plan like finding the best cinnamons and breeding them to the best dilutes, then pairing their offspring together to get cinnamon cocks and hens that are homozygous dilute? Why bother pairing blackeye to blackeye? Don't forget, this bloke is in the "ANBC Hall of Fame" because of his blackeyes. "How many Black Eyes do you put to other varieties to create splits and what varieties do you use? I put two to three Black Eyes to Normals each year. I use Light and Dark Green Normals, Light and Dark Green Cinnamons and Cinnamon Skys. The second best split I have is Cinnamon Sky." Yes he uses cinnamons just like I use cinnamons in my double factor spangle to reduce suffusion. That doesn't mean that all DF spangles are cinnamon or have to be cinnamon. There are also the comments about losing the variety. If they were a composite of cinnamon and dilute, what are we worrying about? We can just make a few. I can breed dilutes without trying and cinnamons are everywhere. To me all of the evidence points to blackeyes as being a distinct variety. But you can decide for yourself! PT
December 7, 200915 yr okay. I have been doing a bit of homework as well. The following is an excerpt from an article by John Mulley that can be found at http://www.bcsa.com.au/Articles/Clearwingmulley.htm "Perhaps this is the time to clarify the relationship between clearwings, greywings and blackeyes. These varieties are genetically allelic, arising from different mutations of the same gene. All are recessive to normals, with carriers(splits) the outcome of crossing to normals. However, clearwings and greywings are dominant to blackeyes(or stated differently, blackeyes are recessive to clearwings and greywings). Clearwings and greywings are co-dominant to each other: intercrossing gives full bodied greywings with features of both varieties(the wing markings of the greywing and the body colour of the clearwing). the three varieties(cleawings, greywings and blackeyes) are upgraded by outcrossing to normals in order to import features that are lacking. I know little about the fourth allelic variety, cinnamonwing yellows(not the same as blackeyed yellows), but do know that there is a light and dark form of greywing marking(with the darker wing dominant to the lighter wing) and there is a dilute gene which is expressed in only clearwings and greywings. Dilutes in either variety should go straight into the petshop and not be presented at shows; however, some say that sizable dilute clearwings crossed back to normal clearwings will clear the wings. The disadvantage of this strategy is that the dilute gene is inherited recessively and will further contribute to wastage in subsequent generations." I don't necessarily agree with John's opinion on dilutes, but... From http://www.budgerigar.com.au/hills/an_inte..._peter_dodd.htm Comments from Peter Dodd "6.What colour varieties do you avoid using to your Black Eyes and do you use many splits? If so, are they Normals or Cinnamons. I don't know that there are colours that I avoid but there are certain varieties that I think should not be considered, e.g. Fallow, Clearwing. Dominant pied. Recessive Pied and Greywing unless you want to breed Greywing Black-Eyed Selfs. The outcrosses I use to obtain splits include Normal. Opaline. Cinnamonwing and Cinnamonwing Spangle. I have no doubt that using Opaline hens is by far the best outcross but this creates a large wastage factor as Opaline Black Eyed Self colour can only be shown in the Normal Opaline Class and of course they have no chance of winning. It is only in the last couple of years that I have been using Spangle Cinnamonwings and results are looking very encouraging but once again there is the wastage factor as any spangle Cinnamonwing Black Eyed Selfs produced are not a Standard Variety. The bottom line here is that any outcrosses you use has to be the best bird in you aviary. There is no point in using second best." Why isn't he using dilutes to breed his blackeyes? He talkes about using cinnamons as an outcross and also states in the article that most blackeyes carry cinnamon. I bet that many carry the dark factor as well - so what! If the blackeye has to carry cinnamon, why use normals to outcross - just use good cinnamons and avoid the wastage? From the Wayne Cusack interview at http://www.budgerigar.com.au/5Cusack%20pro...Fwebversion.pdf "What are your typical Black Eyed pairings in a season? I breed 15 to 18 pairs a year. Most pairs are Black Eyed x Black Eyed, two or three are Black Eyed to Grey Yellow and two or three are Black Eyed to suffused birds." Why hasn't he got a plan like finding the best cinnamons and breeding them to the best dilutes, then pairing their offspring together to get cinnamon cocks and hens that are homozygous dilute? Why bother pairing blackeye to blackeye? Don't forget, this bloke is in the "ANBC Hall of Fame" because of his blackeyes. "How many Black Eyes do you put to other varieties to create splits and what varieties do you use? I put two to three Black Eyes to Normals each year. I use Light and Dark Green Normals, Light and Dark Green Cinnamons and Cinnamon Skys. The second best split I have is Cinnamon Sky." Yes he uses cinnamons just like I use cinnamons in my double factor spangle to reduce suffusion. That doesn't mean that all DF spangles are cinnamon or have to be cinnamon. There are also the comments about losing the variety. If they were a composite of cinnamon and dilute, what are we worrying about? We can just make a few. I can breed dilutes without trying and cinnamons are everywhere. To me all of the evidence points to blackeyes as being a distinct variety. But you can decide for yourself! PT Fascinating - thanks for that!
December 7, 200915 yr okay. I have been doing a bit of homework as well. The following is an excerpt from an article by John Mulley that can be found at http://www.bcsa.com.au/Articles/Clearwingmulley.htm"Perhaps this is the time to clarify the relationship between clearwings, greywings and blackeyes. These varieties are genetically allelic, arising from different mutations of the same gene. All are recessive to normals, with carriers(splits) the outcome of crossing to normals. However, clearwings and greywings are dominant to blackeyes(or stated differently, blackeyes are recessive to clearwings and greywings). Clearwings and greywings are co-dominant to each other: intercrossing gives full bodied greywings with features of both varieties(the wing markings of the greywing and the body colour of the clearwing). the three varieties(cleawings, greywings and blackeyes) are upgraded by outcrossing to normals in order to import features that are lacking. I know little about the fourth allelic variety, cinnamonwing yellows(not the same as blackeyed yellows), but do know that there is a light and dark form of greywing marking(with the darker wing dominant to the lighter wing) and there is a dilute gene which is expressed in only clearwings and greywings. Dilutes in either variety should go straight into the petshop and not be presented at shows; however, some say that sizable dilute clearwings crossed back to normal clearwings will clear the wings. The disadvantage of this strategy is that the dilute gene is inherited recessively and will further contribute to wastage in subsequent generations."I don't necessarily agree with John's opinion on dilutes, but...From http://www.budgerigar.com.au/hills/an_inte..._peter_dodd.htm Comments from Peter Dodd"6.What colour varieties do you avoid using to your Black Eyes and do you use many splits? If so, are they Normals or Cinnamons.I don't know that there are colours that I avoid but there are certain varieties that I think should not be considered, e.g. Fallow, Clearwing. Dominant pied. Recessive Pied and Greywing unless you want to breed Greywing Black-Eyed Selfs. The outcrosses I use to obtain splits include Normal. Opaline. Cinnamonwing and Cinnamonwing Spangle. I have no doubt that using Opaline hens is by far the best outcross but this creates a large wastage factor as Opaline Black Eyed Self colour can only be shown in the Normal Opaline Class and of course they have no chance of winning. It is only in the last couple of years that I have been using Spangle Cinnamonwings and results are looking very encouraging but once again there is the wastage factor as any spangle Cinnamonwing Black Eyed Selfs produced are not a Standard Variety. The bottom line here is that any outcrosses you use has to be the best bird in you aviary. There is no point in using second best."Why isn't he using dilutes to breed his blackeyes? He talkes about using cinnamons as an outcross and also states in the article that most blackeyes carry cinnamon. I bet that many carry the dark factor as well - so what! If the blackeye has to carry cinnamon, why use normals to outcross - just use good cinnamons and avoid the wastage?From the Wayne Cusack interview at http://www.budgerigar.com.au/5Cusack%20pro...Fwebversion.pdf"What are your typical Black Eyed pairings in a season? I breed 15 to 18 pairs a year. Most pairs are Black Eyed x Black Eyed, two or three are Black Eyed to Grey Yellow and two or three are Black Eyed to suffused birds." Why hasn't he got a plan like finding the best cinnamons and breeding them to the best dilutes, then pairing their offspring together to get cinnamon cocks and hens that are homozygous dilute? Why bother pairing blackeye to blackeye? Don't forget, this bloke is in the "ANBC Hall of Fame" because of his blackeyes."How many Black Eyes do you put to other varieties to create splits and what varieties do you use? I put two to three Black Eyes to Normals each year. I use Light and Dark Green Normals, Light and Dark Green Cinnamons and Cinnamon Skys. The second best split I have is Cinnamon Sky." Yes he uses cinnamons just like I use cinnamons in my double factor spangle to reduce suffusion. That doesn't mean that all DF spangles are cinnamon or have to be cinnamon.There are also the comments about losing the variety. If they were a composite of cinnamon and dilute, what are we worrying about? We can just make a few. I can breed dilutes without trying and cinnamons are everywhere.To me all of the evidence points to blackeyes as being a distinct variety. But you can decide for yourself!PTHaving bred them for a couple seasons now I KNOW that when I pair my purchased BES to cinnamons they breed 100% cinnamon (every single one so far has) so you could say that maybe this is pretty good evidence that even the top breeders are using cinnamon in their blackeye breeding - my stock originates from Peter Dodd and Peter Glassenbury just so you know. Enough evidence for me to make up my mind that the better examples are indeed a combination of cinnamon and dilute (or some other mystery diluted variety!). But AS I SAID PREVIOUSLY I would imagine that group of birds has also had many years of selective breeding towards clear body colour and clear markings. Sure you can try and make some but I bet all those years of selective breeding that ALSO has gone into the birds for many a year will not be there either so you would be starting from scratch again with heavier body colour and heavier markings. But sure why not. All of the BES's that have represented WA in the last couple years have been cinnamons (apart from Melborne a while ago when we sent a dilute instead as we had no BES's) and have been paired to cinnamons since. One of these birds was 5th placed too. I would also imagine that with time and patience you could slowly reduce colour and markings from dilutes just from selective breeding alone but obviously the cinnamon version is even less suffused. Have a go at them and see what I mean! It's a fun variety. http://www.budgerigar.com.au/5Cusack%20pro...Fwebversion.pdfHe talks about breeding black eye to black eye, black eye to grey yellow, and black eye to suffused.Does anyone know specifically what he means by "grey yellow" and "suffused"? (i.e. are those types of black eyes, or types of some other mutation?)He talks like black eye is in danger of becoming extinct. That would rule out my making one by combining dilute with cinnamon. Makes it sound like Linda's bird is desperately needed in the gene pool!Finnie, there is am ongoing debate about what is a suffused yellow/white or a grey yellow/white. From what I understand this is just a confusing term for dilutes either without (suffused yellow/white) or with (grey yellow/white) grey. Edited December 7, 200915 yr by nubbly5
December 7, 200915 yr i know im going to sound really dumb here but i always thought bes were breed by dutch pieds to rececive pieds ??????? why did i think that
December 7, 200915 yr "Enough evidence for me to make up my mind that the better examples are indeed a combination of cinnamon and dilute (or some other mystery diluted variety!)."It's no mystery - the other diluted variety is called a blackeyed self!A bit more stuff found at http://www.anbc.iinet.net.au/downloads/C&a...0Budgerigar.pdf"The Yellow mutationThe existence of the yellow mutation causes the picture to become confused. The “buttercup” Yellow was well established before the importation of birds from England occurred in the 1990’s. Among the offspring of the imported birds Suffused birds appeared that were not pure Yellow, nor were they true Greywings. Breeders who bred excellent examples of these Suffused birds looked for classes in which they could be exhibited. The result was that some were shown as Black Eyed Self Colours and others were shown as Greywings. Their strength in type and size made them quite successful in spite of their poor varietal features.The Australian Standard includes recognition of two forms of Yellow and White- the Black Eyed Self Colour and the Suffused Yellow or White (which includes Grey Yellow and Grey White). This is recognition that many excellent Suffused birds are being bred and provides some protection for the breeders of the other varieties. The Suffused bird does not meet the Standard for either Black Eyed Self or Greywing and poses a threat to their integrity. We do not want to see the loss of the pure Yellow bird, nor do we wish to see dilution of the intensity of the colour and markings of Greywings."The question remains, is the blackeye the result of another allele at the "greywing" locus or is it just a dilute washed out by cinnamon? The fact that it was identified in Australia before the arrival of what we now know as dilutes tends to indicate to me that it is another variant at this already congested locus (it's a theory - not a fact).You can argue that the better examples of blackeyes are cinnamon. You can also argue that the better clearbodies and lacewings are opalines, but they don't have to be opaline to be a clearbody or lacewing. This debate started by claiming that all blackeyes are cinnamon dilutes. From what I can see the Cinnamon is optional.CheersPTi know im going to sound really dumb here but i always thought bes were breed by dutch pieds to rececive pieds ???????why did i think that Hi GB,That would be a dark eyed clear, not a blackeyed self. 2 different varieties.CheersPT Edited December 7, 200915 yr by KAZ
December 7, 200915 yr okay cheers pt my bad i wondered why i didnt understand anything being said its all clear now thank you mate :flowers:
December 7, 200915 yr "Enough evidence for me to make up my mind that the better examples are indeed a combination of cinnamon and dilute (or some other mystery diluted variety!)."It's no mystery - the other diluted variety is called a blackeyed self!A bit more stuff found at http://www.anbc.iinet.net.au/downloads/C&a...0Budgerigar.pdf"The Yellow mutationThe existence of the yellow mutation causes the picture to become confused. The "buttercup" Yellow was well established before the importation of birds from England occurred in the 1990's. Among the offspring of the imported birds Suffused birds appeared that were not pure Yellow, nor were they true Greywings. Breeders who bred excellent examples of these Suffused birds looked for classes in which they could be exhibited. The result was that some were shown as Black Eyed Self Colours and others were shown as Greywings. Their strength in type and size made them quite successful in spite of their poor varietal features.The Australian Standard includes recognition of two forms of Yellow and White- the Black Eyed Self Colour and the Suffused Yellow or White (which includes Grey Yellow and Grey White). This is recognition that many excellent Suffused birds are being bred and provides some protection for the breeders of the other varieties. The Suffused bird does not meet the Standard for either Black Eyed Self or Greywing and poses a threat to their integrity. We do not want to see the loss of the pure Yellow bird, nor do we wish to see dilution of the intensity of the colour and markings of Greywings."The question remains, is the blackeye the result of another allele at the "greywing" locus or is it just a dilute washed out by cinnamon? The fact that it was identified in Australia before the arrival of what we now know as dilutes tends to indicate to me that it is another variant at this already congested locus (it's a theory - not a fact). This would seem to indicate that what we really have at this locus is: normal, greywing, clearwing, dilute, suffused, and black eyed self. It sounds like maybe a suffused is where there are no longer any wing markings, but still some body color, whereas a black eyed self loses the markings and the suffusion. If it was easier to find information about this, it would make it way less confusing! By the way, is there an order of dominance to these? This is SO reminiscent of the yellow face debate! i know im going to sound really dumb here but i always thought bes were breed by dutch pieds to rececive pieds ???????why did i think that :flowers:Hi GB,That would be a dark eyed clear, not a blackeyed self. 2 different varieties.CheersPT okay cheers pt my bad i wondered why i didnt understand anything being said its all clear now thank you mate GB, it's like "they" are keeping the black eyed self a secret. As far as solid yellow and white birds go, all I could ever find mentioned was albino/lutino, DEC and DF spangle. Apparently we can add Suffused and Black Eyed Self to the list.
December 8, 200915 yr "Enough evidence for me to make up my mind that the better examples are indeed a combination of cinnamon and dilute (or some other mystery diluted variety!)."It's no mystery - the other diluted variety is called a blackeyed self!A bit more stuff found at http://www.anbc.iinet.net.au/downloads/C&a...0Budgerigar.pdf"The Yellow mutationThe existence of the yellow mutation causes the picture to become confused. The "buttercup" Yellow was well established before the importation of birds from England occurred in the 1990's. Among the offspring of the imported birds Suffused birds appeared that were not pure Yellow, nor were they true Greywings. Breeders who bred excellent examples of these Suffused birds looked for classes in which they could be exhibited. The result was that some were shown as Black Eyed Self Colours and others were shown as Greywings. Their strength in type and size made them quite successful in spite of their poor varietal features.The Australian Standard includes recognition of two forms of Yellow and White- the Black Eyed Self Colour and the Suffused Yellow or White (which includes Grey Yellow and Grey White). This is recognition that many excellent Suffused birds are being bred and provides some protection for the breeders of the other varieties. The Suffused bird does not meet the Standard for either Black Eyed Self or Greywing and poses a threat to their integrity. We do not want to see the loss of the pure Yellow bird, nor do we wish to see dilution of the intensity of the colour and markings of Greywings."The question remains, is the blackeye the result of another allele at the "greywing" locus or is it just a dilute washed out by cinnamon? The fact that it was identified in Australia before the arrival of what we now know as dilutes tends to indicate to me that it is another variant at this already congested locus (it's a theory - not a fact).You can argue that the better examples of blackeyes are cinnamon. You can also argue that the better clearbodies and lacewings are opalines, but they don't have to be opaline to be a clearbody or lacewing. This debate started by claiming that all blackeyes are cinnamon dilutes. From what I can see the Cinnamon is optional.CheersPTi know im going to sound really dumb here but i always thought bes were breed by dutch pieds to rececive pieds ???????why did i think that :flowers:Hi GB,That would be a dark eyed clear, not a blackeyed self. 2 different varieties.CheersPT Reading through A Guide to Colour Mutations & Genetics in Parrots, Dr Terry Martin - there are only diluted genes present on the allelic series of Greywing, Clearwing, Dilute - no other identified dilutes genes apart from Faded which occurs at a different allele. Have never come across any other information other than heresay stating that there are more than 3 genes in this series. Also in an interesting section on combinations he writes "The correct name for a combination of mutations is becoming an increasingly annoying problem. Many people, particularly in Europe, are reverting to using a simple combination name of the colours involved." "It is now common in Australia and other countries to use the name Silver for cinnamon blue combinations. However silver is a totally inappropriate name for a light brown and blue bird. Silver is a shade of diluted grey and that is exactly what it should be used for - Dilute Grey". Although he is not talking about BES or even budgerigars specifically here, you can draw very strong parrallels to what is happening here. We have a form of dilute that has been selected (and bred with cinnamon) to produce a cleaner clearer winged version of the same variety (or variety combination) and all of a sudden because we have given it a specific name, it becomes another mutation. Same with the confusion surrounding the Suffused Yellows/Whites and the Grey Yellows/Whites. If we managed to standardise names and name combinations then we would not need this debate. Instead what seems to occur is this - birds like clearwings & dilutes are also affected by other modifier genes which have been selected for over time (like clearwings and no suffusion - as I stated before). We all understand that there can be clearwings with clear wings and clearwings with horribly marked wings but they are still counted as clearwings. But how come when the same happens with dilutes - heavily suffused dilutes and dilutes that have been selected to have clearer wings and bodies, they suddenly become another gene on an allelic series? To make it easier to get a bird with less suffusion and little markings we have added cinnamon until the point where the majority of BES are cinnamon - so pardon me if I generalise and call the BES a cinnamon dilute as that is what, on the whole they are now. Yes I agree totally - cinnamon is optional - BUT so widely spread now that I make the generalisation that BES are a combination of dilute and cinnamon. Sorry if I skipped the bit that said you still need to select for clear body and wings and hence you lose size. And just because all us BES breeders like to use cinnamon to clean up body and wing markings, doesn't mean that if we continually do it we won't get suffusion and wing markings back but what we do do is breed cinnamon into them and then STILL need to select out the cleanest ones to pair back to each other to maintain the clear body colour and clean wings - hence why the variety is still small - JUST like breeding clearwings with clear wings actually. Suffused birds (or straight dilutes) are also useful in breeding BES as there are some rippers out there and they add less body colour and wing markings into the bird than a normal (but they still add some). You can use normals too if you really want but then you have to work harder to get the suffusion and wing markings down again. Even by doing so you are still adding more suffusion and wing markings into the BES than is called for in the standard so again you have to go back into your lower suffusion/marking population and re-pair back to them again to re-establish the clearer bird - 2 steps forward 3 steps back - JUST like in clearwing breeding. Cheers Nubbs Just read this again and it sounds a bit angry - it's not meant to be. I just get into debating stuff like this....... Edited December 8, 200915 yr by nubbly5
December 8, 200915 yr Instead what seems to occur is this - birds like clearwings & dilutes are also affected by other modifier genes which have been selected for over time (like clearwings and no suffusion - as I stated before). We all understand that there can be clearwings with clear wings and clearwings with horribly marked wings but they are still counted as clearwings. But how come when the same happens with dilutes - heavily suffused dilutes and dilutes that have been selected to have clearer wings and bodies, they suddenly become another gene on an allelic series? I reckon this is the answer. We have given variety names to all of the obvious traits but we do not formally recognise other more subtle differences. If you have a look at the normal winged birds in your aviary you will see some that are very dark in the wings, some quite light and some in between (best to only look at the hens for this as some split Cinnamon cocks can appear lighter). You can call it natural variance if you want, or, you can explain it as the effect of a darkening gene (or absence of a lighteneing gene). So, the lack of recognition of this variance has lead to these varieties being defined as separate mutations. But are they really?
December 8, 200915 yr The key bits from Alistair Home's article "The “buttercup” Yellow was well established before the importation of birds from England occurred in the 1990’s", and "Among the offspring of the imported birds Suffused birds appeared that were not pure Yellow, nor were they true Greywings." This to me indicates the presence of 2 seperate mutations rather than varying degrees of the same mutation. The dilute is as different to a greywing as it is to a blackeye. Therefore why would we accept that the dilute and greywing are different mutations and tha dilute and blackeye are at opposite extremes of the same mutation? From what I understand, Australian blackeyes are different to what are referred to as blackeyes in the UK and Europe. I am also told that like the fallows, the blackeye variety was not imported with the UK imports. Therefore they were bred up using the Australian stock and UK outcrosses. Maybe the true Australian blackeye does not exist in Europe? Therefore it does not get recognised in the literature. Maybe the greywing locus is at one of the so-called mutation hotspots where there are numerous alleles in operation, not all of which are documented? Cheers PT
December 8, 200915 yr The key bits from Alistair Home's article "The "buttercup" Yellow was well established before the importation of birds from England occurred in the 1990's", and "Among the offspring of the imported birds Suffused birds appeared that were not pure Yellow, nor were they true Greywings." Correct, the BES as we know it now was well and truly establised before importation. But I also believe Yellows with suffusion have been around before importation too as I bred one in 1973. Parents were an Aus YF and a Greywing Light Green. One of the chicks was way too light to be a Greywing but nowhere near clean enough for the Blackeye class of the day. Others also had them besides myself and they were often exhibited in the BE class with little success.
December 8, 200915 yr The key bits from Alistair Home's article "The "buttercup" Yellow was well established before the importation of birds from England occurred in the 1990's", and "Among the offspring of the imported birds Suffused birds appeared that were not pure Yellow, nor were they true Greywings." This to me indicates the presence of 2 seperate mutations rather than varying degrees of the same mutation. The dilute is as different to a greywing as it is to a blackeye. Therefore why would we accept that the dilute and greywing are different mutations and tha dilute and blackeye are at opposite extremes of the same mutation? From what I understand, Australian blackeyes are different to what are referred to as blackeyes in the UK and Europe. I am also told that like the fallows, the blackeye variety was not imported with the UK imports. Therefore they were bred up using the Australian stock and UK outcrosses. Maybe the true Australian blackeye does not exist in Europe? Therefore it does not get recognised in the literature. Maybe the greywing locus is at one of the so-called mutation hotspots where there are numerous alleles in operation, not all of which are documented? Cheers PT There was as much published about clearwings with pure white wings coming from Australia and the English ones being different but they are still clearwings - not much difference to what you are saying about blackeyed selfs just that they are still acknowledged to be the same variety. Also in my first breeding season with clearwings I bred these funny looking birds that for all the world looked like dilute clearwings - now at least I hope we can agree on the fact that dilute and clearwing are on the same allele and that clearwing is dominant to dilute. So I was absolutley stumpted as to how come I now had these clearwing dilutes. After much discussion with quite a number of different people, along with many photos being exhanged, it was finally explained to me that due to the many years of selection my clearwings now carry modifyer genes which clean up the wing markings, these genes are also inherited in dilutes bred from the clearwings (they were obviously split for dilute) giving you a dilute but one that has the same wing marking modifyer genes as the clearwings. Not a new variety at all but just a dilute - but hey they LOOKED different. Oh and by the way, Dr Terry Martin is an Australian Author, I think still based in Sydney. His research into parrot mutation genetics was based on info from Australia, Europe, South Africa, North America and Asia. Nicely his information is not just based on budgerigar theory but based on mutations found commonly right through the parrot world (including budgerigars of course). Ooh apparently he has a yahoo group for parrot genetics discussion too........ Nubbly scurries off to have a look. Edited December 8, 200915 yr by nubbly5
December 8, 200915 yr okay Nubbly, when you sign up for Terry Martins yahoo group, the questions are: 1. Are the differences between blackeyes and dilutes simply caused by colour modifying genes and the phenotypes are the result of the combination of these colour modifiers and the dilute gene? 2. Are there more mutations operating at the dilute locus than are documented? I am not convinced, but happy to be! Cheers PT
December 9, 200915 yr Oooh my word there is a lot of very complex and in depth stuff on that forum but some stuff I trolled up this morning...... "From practical experience with greywings, clearwings and dilutes over 30 years, there is actually some slight codominance between greywing and dilute but it is only subtle and cannot be used reliably for indentification because of other contributing factors. The greywing dilute combination (most commonly called Greywing/Dilute) does in fact look basically like any greywing, however the body colour is marginally paler than the average homozygous greywing and the tail feathers are also paler than the average homozygous greywing. These marginally paler birds are occasionally incorrectly called heavily suffused dilutes. The added complication with all greywing, clearwing and dilute budgerigars is that they are all very susceptible to outside modifier genes. This is especially noticeable in dilutes where even birds in the same nest can vary from bright body colouration to dull suffused colouration and also heavy grey markings to almost absent markings. There appears to be AT LEAST 2 modifiers involved, probably even more is likely. Body colour and wing pattern seem to be modified independently, however i have seen both occur at once and this is not known whether this is a combined effect or a third modifier. Irrespective of the possible cause, these visual variations do occur in dilutes. They are also seen in clearwings and to a lesser degree in greywings. So as well as looking at the interaction between heterozygous multiple allele birds which may have codominant "blending" of characteristics, we have these additional modifiers as well also modifying the same characteristics. The old fashioned term Full Body Coloured Greywing also needs to be pensioned off as well. It was originally used to identify the Greywing Clearwing combination. However thanks to all these other modifiers it is now quite common to breed homozygous greywings having full body colour which have NO clearwing makeup at all. Finally another complication, is that from my own experience, greywings quite often get subtly darker in wing markings and body colour in old age (several years) compared to their earlier younger (but still adult) colouration." Ken Yorke And something probably a little more close to the mark: "This is purely my opinion based on my observations of the birds being bred in Australia, it is still possible that another clearwing multiple allele is present. Some people in Australia (not myself) also believe that there is 2 dilute alleles (one English and one Australian) I suspect that modifier genes are the most likely scenario that are involved in all cases of greywing, clearwing and dilute colour variation." Ken Yorke I have asked the questions Peter and if I get an answer, I will post but I will bow to Ken Yorke's superior knowledge of budgie genetics and varieity. Edited December 9, 200915 yr by nubbly5
December 9, 200915 yr Author Not really sure what to do with this hen now, I don't think I want to get into breeding BES'..... they seem a bit too much effort. Are they useful as an outcross at all to any other varities?
December 9, 200915 yr Well it kind of depends how good a bird it is and if it does or does not have cinnamon. BES are generally a lesser variety as they are continually selected for reduced suffusion and less wing markings but diltues of strong quality are handy for breeding greywings or clearwings. If it's got cinnamon though it's not a great idea to put her into them then as cinnamon is not acceptable in these varieties. Really though, a good bird is a good bird regardless of variety sometimes so make an assessment on her quality compared to the rest of your flock and if she is good enough maybe slot her into some normals or cinnamons - remembering that the resulting babies will be split for BES (or dilute and maybe also cinnamon for the cocks). If you want a go at BES let me know as I'm sure I can find a nice partner for her out of my stack load of the things (they breed like flies!!!!!).
December 9, 200915 yr Author Thanks for the advice and the offer. Breeding the rarer varieties does appeal to me but BES seem to be a bit complicated..... I purchased her thinking she was a dilute therefore useful for my greywing boy and figured if she turned out DEC like the guy said then I could use her with a Recessive Pied. As she may be carrying cinnamon I'd rather not use her to my greywing. I think that the BES are a very pretty mutation and probably something I may have considered dabbling in in the future so I'll look into them a bit more and think about it......... Thanks again
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