I emailed every top show breeder I know on this subject and I have emails flooding into my inbox right now. So far with half the emails answered NOONE would breed a 12 week old hen. In fact it strikes horror into all of them.

Edited April 29, 200916 yr by KAZ

Dave I did not say I breed young birds I wait until 12 months like most people. Im just saying what I've seen.I breed birds from 12 months old because thats what most people do. some breed from 10 months but I have only heard of one time where people breed 12 week old babies, and that is on this topic.

I never said you bred 12 week old budgies, I know you are not that irresponsible. I said you saw things in a documentary. I acknowledged that. I know breeders who start with males younger than 12 months, but 12 weeks? NO. I am not accusing you of anything Pearce. I think you have misinterpreted me.

very well put Dave, I am one of the fence sitters. I can't see myself breeding a bird before 12 months old as I will have enough problems breeding with them at 12 months let alone with the extra problems that can occur when breeding earlier... that said, I don't think that RIP and DrNat are 'lone voices' as you put it... I could take you to other forums and probably to budgie clubs where there are many breeders who breed birds from 9 months.. sure it isn't the 12 weeks that we are discussing here but it is earlier than 1 year.

There is nothing wrong with being a fencesitter, what is important is what side you get off the fence on - the rose garden of the daffodil bed - one causes more pain - :lol:I have been to other sites, and I know some breed birds younger, but the 12 weeks thing is ridiculous. They are lone voices if they are advocating that as acceptable.

I did misinterpret Daves post I apologize.

I just viewed a documentary and now I know wild budgies breed from the age of 12 weeks. very interesting seen as though in captivity they are not bred until 6 months +.

 

I have no doubt that almost any living animal breed early when there is no one to control the breeding of animals.

There is no doubt a dog will breed at 6 month of age when her first cycle comes around but should we do it?

There is no doubt a teenage girl can get pregnant when she starts her menstrual cycle but should she?

 

There is no doubt that birds will breed at 12 weeks but should we do it?

 

Give me more positive reasons why budgies should be bred at 12 weeks vs waiting until 12 months?

I cannot think of any Elly as I said before I dont do it.

I cannot think of any Elly as I said before I dont do it.

 

I was just pulling your quote out but my question is directed to those who feel it is okay to start breeding budgies at 12 weeks instead of 12 months or older.

 

I would like to see the positive and negatives laid out from them so I can understand their point of view.

 

As said in another post everything we read on the internet is not correct and we have to remember that there are many who are starting out to breed budgies on this site and I want to ensure that if advice such as breeding budgies at 12 weeks is okay, I would like to see it backed up with firm evidence on why not just that wild budgies do it.

In public forums like this there is a "duty of care" to ensure that information and advice offered up for the less educated or experienced members to follow is sound and not likely to lead them down a path where the consequences and end results are no longer within their control. i.e. kids whose parents wont allow their bird to go to the vets when its eggbound etc....we get that here a whole lot and all the time. When some members are seen to have knowledge or experience then young people can view their opinions as worth a try and get themselves in all kinds of trouble and then we....the majority of regular forum members are inevitably the ones who have to bail them out and try and get the bird help when it all goes pear shaped.

Of all reply emails I have gotten from top show breeders, so far..................NO ONE, I repeat NO ONE has said its okay to breed a 12 week old budgie.

Edited April 29, 200916 yr by KAZ

Interesting debate that is going on here.

 

On one side, people such as Daz seem to be making the point that our show birds are very different from the wild budgies, and they should nto breed young. Kaz, and many other experienced breeders agree with them.

At what point do you consider a person an experienced breeder?

 

Dr Nat and RIPBudgies seem to be making the point that they have no issue with budgies breeding at a young age, with Dr Nat telling us all how she had a brother and sister pair breed at 12 weeks old, and how great the chicks were.

I don't think we were saying we had no issue with it. It is more the fact that it happens both in the wild and in captivity. Maybe we should have been a bit more careful in choosing our words. I myself have never bred with a bird so young and never will. Should something like this ever happen though I would not approach it as though it was the end of the world.

 

Then we have the fence sitters, or the swinging voters, such as Pearce, who are reading what is being said, and can go either way. Perace is talking about things he has seen in a documentary and seeking to apply it to the regular breeding set up budgie breeders use, without duly noting differences, or at least not commenting on them.

 

Some people just like them fences and you know what, sometimes it is the safest option.

 

Here is my take on the whole thing.

 

Budgies in the wild are very different to their domesticated cousins. Yes, budgies in the wild may breed as young as 12 weeks, but it is unusual and not the norm. Breeding seasons usually only occur every 12 months due to rainfall, and sometimes eveyr 2 years, so they do not normally have the chance to breed at 12 weeks.

 

Pearce stated that budgies in the wild can hav emore than 2 clutches a year. Yes, that is true, but you would also not that the size of the clutch is very different. They do not have clutches where they lay 9, 10 or even 11 egss. 2-3 eggs is the absolute norm.

 

Except from Complete Book of Australian Birds.

 

NESTING

Breeds August-January in south and June-September in north, but any time after good rains. Reacts quickly to rainfall-each pair may have sveral broods in succession. Nest is a hollow or hole in a tree, log or fence post.

Communal nesting is common-several nests have been seen in the same tree branch. Eggs: four to six, occasionally up to eight; white; rounded, 19 x 14 mm. Laid on layer of wood dust in hollow. Incubation lasts about 18 days; only female sits, and is fed by male at regular intervals. young leave nest about 30 days after hatching and are independant within a few days. They acquire adult plumage at three or four months.

Dr Nat told us that the youngest grandmother is 17. It may well be, I cannot find my freaky and distrubing facts web page link right at the moment. Dr Nat and RIP both go on to tell us that we do not always know best, and that nature will surprise us. It sure does. I mean, humans are a great example. I know girls that began puberty at 10. Are they ready to have kids? Their cycle would say they are ready, surely nature knows best. Come on, the argument that nature must be right is not always the strongest one.

That can just open up another whole line of debate but I am not going there with that one.

So we know that young birds can breed? Yes. We know that nature can surprise us? Yes. Do we know the mortality rates of young budgie mothers in the wild? No. Have budgie breeders experienced difficulties with young budgies seeking to lay eggs and give birth? Yes. Do you want what is best for your birds? Yes. Should you put them in a situation where they might survive, or they might not, simply because it is easier to leave the young ones in the aviary with the breeding older ones? That is your call. Personally, I say no.

 

I agree Dave. The welfare of the birds are our responsibility. My youngsters are left to mature as long as possible.

 

To the younger members of the board, I would look for what common opinion is amongst experienced breeders before deciding to breed younger birds. Just because 2 lone voices in the wilderness think somethign is okay, does not make it right. Surely this is something we have all learnt from the idiots on Jackass!!!!

 

I think some people here have a problem with tunnel vision and are reading things into posts that are not there. Just because one is older it does not make one wiser or more experienced. There are some unexperienced older people on this forum also.

 

I will finish my post with say this. I do not condone the breeding of a 12 week old budgie!!!!! I never did. DrNat simply pointed out that it happened to her, that is all. I have never done it!!! I never will!!. I simply pointed out that wild birds do breed at 12 weeks of age. That's all.

Edited April 29, 200916 yr by RIPbudgies

R.I.P. you did say "flog me if you wish"...well, we can't...we love you too much

R.I.P. you did say "flog me if you wish"...well, we can't...we love you too much

 

Yes I did say that. I also stated in my previous post that I did not choose my words wisely either. I was agreeing with DrNat's perspective on the issue not the actual issue its self. If that makes sense. DrNat simply raised an example, that is all. DrNat did not go on to say the it is a regular occurance or that she condones it. Only that it happened.

 

Richo we love you too. :sad:

Thank you

R.I.P. you did say "flog me if you wish"...well, we can't...we love you too much

 

Yes I did say that. I also stated in my previous post that I did not choose my words wisely either. I was agreeing with DrNat's perspective on the issue not the actual issue its self. If that makes sense. DrNat simply raised an example, that is all. DrNat did not go on to say the it is a regular occurance or that she condones it. Only that it happened.

 

Richo we love you too.

 

Exactly. Thank you. Judgements and jumping to conclusions. That is my perspective on this issue.

 

For the record, I prefer to avoid colony breeding because of my experience with birds fighting each other for territorial reasons, I have had success with this method, but also catastrophe. I have had more predictable success breeding segregated pairs.

I do not advocate breeding 12week old budgies (although it happened), I wait until they are adult birds and in condition.

Nor do I advocate that 17 year olds should be parents let alone grandparents, or have children with their relatives for there are many other social issues to consider - though there is much human history of ruling dynasties and this practice and both success and problems with it. As for flogging, well it's outlawed in this country, although it still happens, and it isn't outlawed in many other countries. There are philanthropists and misanthropists, and plain old humpty dumpty sitting on the wall. Interestingly, there are people in this world who think that the practice of keeping pets is wrong, let alone breeding them.

 

The point is though that these things happen. Whether we think they are right or wrong or change our minds, it just is.

Nature is neither right nor wrong, it just is.

Things we used to think were right, along comes something, someone, or some other example to make it not so.

 

Life presents us with all of these things that we judge as wrong or incorrect or imperfect because that is how life is, it challenges us with ourselves and our beliefs. Sometimes wisdom and foolishness are one and the same, it depends on perspective.

 

For a better answer, ask a better question.

 

Maybe the person in the pet shop misunderstood you, or you misunderstood them. Maybe they said something and you heard something else. Maybe they said something and meant something else. Who knows.

 

Think about what it is that you really want.

If a bird is what you want, then look for a bird that you just love, they tend to choose you.

I don't like this "nature knows what is best" idea. Nature does not know anything. Nature is not some sort of knowing force. Nature is just physics and chemistry. There is no "plan", it just happens. It is just a series of reactions. The fact that some birds bred at 12 weeks, doesn't mean it was the best thing for them just cause they could do it. They just did it because they could. Nature also doesn't care if those birds died from their breeding.

Now we are intellectual beings, we have a consciousness. We form opinions (hopefully) by gathering information from the world around us and making an informed decision. Nature does not have a consciousness. It does not learn from experience, like we do. We have that ability and thus from our experiences and gathered knowledge most of us agree that breeding at under 12months (or around that age) is not the best thing to do if you want to have healthy birds.

 

The thing people need to learn is that because nature has no consciousness, it does not care, and the world is not as happy and lovely as one would make it out to be. Things have to die inorder for other things to survive. Things have to breed or die out. It's tough out there.

 

One of my favourite sayings is "Statistics do not matter to the individual"

Hmm, interesting thought that nature has no consciousness and does not care.

 

All the life forms that inhabit the planet of our bodies might think that about us too, as we do about our planet.

 

Or is life just chemistry and physics with no consciousness?

No, I would think that there would be some biology and earth science in there too.

 

How do you know that this planet does not have a consciousness of its own?

Gimme a kilo of what ya on...

Gimme a kilo of what ya on...

 

Could you handle it?

Gimme a kilo of what ya on...

 

Could you handle it?

 

 

I'm hearing ya.

Wow this has become a deep thread. philosophies on life and being. I think for me, saying that it all comes down to chemistry and physics is a little narrow but then again saying that the earth has a conscience is a bit strange too. But I can agree with DrNat when she says we don't know. I think, especially in this era, that the vast majority of humans think they know a lot, but in my opinion, I think the more we learn the less we know... if that makes sense...

I think we can safely forgive the person in the pet shop for not knowing everything then.

They are just trying to earn a living like everyone else.

This is a very interesting discussion. It seems a pity to me that it is still under a heading about budgies sold in pet shops. That matter was left behind long ago. Can it be moved to a more appropriate heading?

Hey Pearce, do you remember the name of that documentary. I remember seeing it in TV and always wanted a copy.

 

 

Derek

 

Edit: Doesn't matter I found it

 

Edited May 2, 200916 yr by Derek

Well seen how everyone has had there opinion on this topic I thought that I should keep up with the trend and have my opinion seens how I started this discussion and it got way out of hand!! I own over 40 budgies and have been breeding for a few years now but still class my self as a beginner. I have learnt so much from this forum and managed to save quite a few birds from it. I think that everyone has a right to there own opinon but just remember that there are beginers like myself on this forum that follow the advice and reading some of these messages and getting very confused. Using common sense I would never breed a young bird, not only is it selfish on the breeders behalf but also extremely irresponsible!!! Think of the poor bird before your ego!!!! I think of what's best for my birds before what they are capable of!! A human girl can fall pregnant at age 12 but would we encourage her to????

It seems the original topic has been well covered and swept under the rug. I've been following the discussion that followed, and feel it can now be closed. If any further topics want to be discussed, feel free to start a new topic in another section.