.......... I believe that knowledge is the way to go. If you are not fully informed on what you are doing. DON'T DO IT.

I Agree.

Edited March 15, 200916 yr by Daz

Immunisations and antibiotics are completely different things.

Immunisations work by sensitising our immune system to a pathogen so that we are better able to deal with it when we encounter the fully pathogenic organisms later. This is what happens in nature. An animal that catches a less pathogenic strain of a disease will then be less affected by the disease later on, because it has memory cells that have developed to combat that particular pathogen. This is why once you have caught chicken pox, it is highly unlikely you will catch it again, because your immune system has been exposed to it and knows how to deal with it and is now much more efficient at removing it before it sets up infection. And thus generally you are immune for the rest of your life or for a long period of time afterwards.

 

Antibiotics on the other hand are given to an animal or human being to kill bacteria that is causing infection in their body. Antibiotics do not do anything to the animal's immune system whatsoever. As soon as the antibiotics are stopped, bacteria can recolonise the animal. There is no lasting immunity. The bacteria however develop resistance (a sort of immunity if you will) to the drugs given. If they are not wiped out properly or are given at continual low doses that do not kill off the stronger ones, then the stronger ones that are resistant to the drug will replicate and more resistant ("immune") bacteria come into existence. And now because they are resitant the drug will not work anymore. Thus the bacteria can happily multiply even while you continue to give the same antibiotics. Infact by continually giving the antibiotics that they are resistant to, you are wiping out their competition bacteria, making survival much easier for the resistant bacteria and they go nuts.

 

Thus

The immunistation/vaccination itself does not kill anything, it is your immune reaction to it that does. If you put Mycobacterium tuberculosis bacteria into a tuberculosis vaccine they would live. If you put the same bacteria into a vessel of antibiotics (suited to them) they would die instantly.

Infact many vaccinations are actually just weakened forms, dead or parts of the bacteria/virus/pathogen. They are just in a form that won't kill you or harm you.

Antibiotics are a poison specific to bacteria.

 

Oh yeah I forgot to say. Putting your birds on anibiotics is also not good for them in that it kills of their resident helpful bacteria, which can make digestion more difficult, give them abdominal pain (stomach cramps), diarrhoea and fungal infections. You will find they will drink more when there is no medication in their water and they will be happier and healthier off the stuff. Remember drugs have both good and bad side effects. Some antibiotics are known to be ototoxic causing the animal to become deaf (now banned in humans) or interfering with kidney function (like causing failure). There are many more side effects.

 

Broad spectrum antibiotics cover a wide range of bacteria that they kill, but they don't kill all kinds of bacteria and they may only slightly kill some types as well. Broad spectrum antibiotics are actually one of the antibiotics that are most responsible for resistance formation.

Edited March 16, 200916 yr by Sailorwolf

I agree with SW. There is nothing wrong with immunisations. Imunisation makes your immune system stronger and not needing to use antibiotics. Its the antibiotics that are the things that make super bugs.

 

I don't use antibiotics or any treatments during normal quarantine. I only treat when a bird is sick. Instead of preventative treatments i do lots of testing of poop and crop contents to see what nastiest may lurk. No point treating a flock for something they don't have. If you have evidence of a sickness in a few birds, then yes, treat them all. but otherwise, let their own immune system ( that has been built up with quality diet and healthy living conditions) battle the bugs off. Only treat for things if there is evidence that the birds immune system is struggling.

 

90% of the breeders i have heard talk, use nothing but ivermictin (if that) in their flocks.

Edited March 16, 200916 yr by **Liv**

I dont think its necessary harmful for birds to come into contact with pathogens that are bad for the birds. I believe some contact is good for the development for immunity. It's only when birds become stressed for a variety of reasons that birds can become visible ill. Take Megabacteria as an example, most Budgies in the country will have Mega, it only becomes a problem when birds are stressed. Unfortunately we then look to treating the bird, rather than treating the strees factor. Same goes for Polyoma virus.

 

 

 

Im not a fan of continually using the same worming treatment either.

A very good breeder and friend of ours says that he uses 2 medications. Observation and heat. Observe the birds, and any that are looking sick, get them in the hospital cage with heat. Most birds recover quickly when given heat early enough in the illness. The key is to know your birds individually and pick up the signs of illness when it first shows. even very subtle changes such as napping when the others are playing or having 2 feet down rather than one etc.

Edited March 16, 200916 yr by **Liv**

Very informing explanation sailorwolf. Thanks very much.

Just thought I'd mention that Doxycycline is a bacteriostatic. This means that it doesn't actually outright kill the bacteria (it can at high doses, caution! as high doses cause renal failure), instead it stops them from reproducing, in an attempt to help the animal's immune system to better cope with the infection. However this means that upon withdrawel of doxycycline the bacteria that are still there continue on as normal. Doxycycline pauses them if you will. Thus the very use of bacteriostatic drugs requires the animal to have a competent immune system. If the animal does not then the bacteria continue on as normal.

I have a section in my notes here about resistance to tetracyclines (doxycycline is in the tetracycline family of antibiotics).

"Resistance to one tetracycline almost always crosses over to all others of this class. Acquired resistance is common." "Doxycycline is used in people for [certain diseases] resistant to other drugs; there may well be pressure put on vets not to use it"

 

I also have with me a list of all the side effects that can occur with normal dosing and with accidental overdosing (which could quite easily happen in an aviary setting). I will mention a few of these side effects: Tetracyclines should not be used during the breeding season while there are growing chicks as they interfere with growth and are contraindicated in young and pregnant (eggnant) animals.

Tetracyclines past their use by date (referring to the comment I made before about keeping it in the fridge) can cause serious kidney disease.

 

So do you really want to risk making your birds sicker than they already are and produce a resistant bacteria, to treat for a disease that they may not even have?

 

Prophylactic treatment is when people continually give animals antibiotics to prevent them from getting a disease or treating subclinical diseases.

 

All I can say is that Prophylactic treatment is no substitute for good management. If you are having to use prophylactic antibiotics then you need to seriously consider your management of your animals.

Probiotic.

huh?? what do you mean by 'Probiotic'?? Are you for regular use of them or against the use of them?

Very interesting again sailorwolf. Thankyou.

huh?? what do you mean by 'Probiotic'?? Are you for regular use of them or against the use of them?

Use once a week , or more importantly for a week after medication such as antibiotics to replace the good bacteria in the stomach.