My bird has suddenly become sick and I'm completely stumped as to what the problem is. Before I consult the vet, I wanted to see if anyone here has any idea what may be wrong with her.

 

First of all, she was fine one day, had ten or so coughing fits the next day, made gasping noises which originated from her throat all day the next day and night (and coughing regularly all day), was a little better the next day and today she's as bad as the day before yesterday.

 

She's only around six months old, I've had her for about three months. We have another bird with her in the cage and he's fine. They were bought from the same breeder at the same time, so there's no chance of him passing things onto her. She hasn't had air sac mites or anything before. We mostly feed her a seed diet with some veges/fruit occasionally and grit. We keep the cage really clean, and also their water bottle and we don't use soap or anything like that to clean their seed cups.

 

The sound she's making seems to be coming from her throat, it's really loud and she breathes with her beak open. As I said this just happened all of a sudden and it continues throughout the whole day. She coughs loudly/violently as well. It makes me think she has something stuck in her throat but she's eaten/drunk a lot in the past few days and surely that would wash it down. I have no idea what's causing this. She can still sing/make noises, eat, drink, climb around etc, but there are obviously times where you can see that she feels unwell. Does anyone have any idea what might be causing this? Help is much appreciated.

Edited March 4, 200916 yr by wei

I wouldnt want to hazzard a guess on this as time seems pretty important that you get her to an avian vet ASAP. Birds rarely get things stuck in their throat so rule that one out. I would be getting her to the vet if it was me

I'm going to take her as soon as possible. What problem could just develop so quickly like that? Do her symptoms sound anything like a chest infection? Her droppings are normal, they're not runny etc and they aren't exposed to drafts. they live indoors and the temperature has been warm. what I'm worried about, is that the vet might be stumped as to what the problem is too and just prescribe some medication which won't work. We don't have many vets specialising in birds around here

Good luck at the vets and i hope its easily treated.

 

Its really hard for us to diagnose without seeing her. it could be a respiratory infection etc... but it also could be something that has been sitting dorment in her body until now. A vet should do poo smears and hopefully a crop wash, also should listen to the lungs and heart etc...

Edited March 4, 200916 yr by **Liv**

Hi everyone, I'd like to update you all on the situation. We took teddy to a vet who gave him dexamethasone (a potent anti inflammatory), baytril and ivermec. A 1.25% dilution of baytril was also prescribed to be given to him by 0.08mls a day for five days. He got better that night and the problem disappeared completely..till about three weeks later where it all came back in it's entirety. So We took him to the best avian vet around here and this one gave him more ivermec and clavulox which is a broad spectrum antibiotic. Teddy got better by the second day although he was still struggling to breathe, so obviously, it wasn't as effective as the baytril he was given the first time. The vet told me to give teddy 0.05mls of clavulox twice daily for a week. Teddy is on the fourth or fifth day of clavulox now, and guess what? The respiratory problem is getting worse everyday which seems to tell me that this antibiotic is not working. The vet bill has already amounted to two hundred and fifty dollars which is extremely frustrating because teddy is still very sick.

 

I did some research and apparently budgies are most susceptible to mycoplasma and chlamydophila. Now the baytril (enroflaxin) and the clavulox (ciproflaxin), which are both broad spectrum and both from the same family do kill mycoplasma. What I think has happened is that, because Teddy was given baytril first and not in a high enough dosage to completely kill all the bacteria, the bacteria has become resistant and hence the clavulox is not working. I read that baytril is generally the last antibiotic chosen to give to birds because of the fear of antibiotic resistance..so I really don't know what medicine he should be given now if that has happened.

 

Another common bacterial cause of respiratory problems in budgies is chlamydophila, which is another hard to kill bacteria. I read that doxycycline is effective against this. I don't think that clavulox or baytril kill chlamydophila. What are everyone's thoughts on this topic?

Oh I'm so sorry to hear that.. thanks for the update. Could you try ringing your avian vet to talk over the phone? Since their treatment didn't work maybe they could give you a quick piece of advice over the phone, obviously not an entire consult or anything but you could just try that?

Oh wei sorry to hear about your Teddy!

 

It's unlikely that 1 treatment with Baytril will cause resistance - resistance is casued by frequent sub-lethal exposures to an antibacterial over a reasonable period of time (generally years). It's way more likely that what you are treating is NOT what is susceptable to Baytril in the first place. Hence the clavulox is also not working. But a broad spectrum is a vets best chance at getting what might be there but not always if it's an organism that is not susceptible.

 

It's very likely that the anti-inflammitory reduced the inflamation caused by the birds reaction to bacterial (or whatever it is) infection - this is a great treatment if you are also treating the underlying infection (which the vet tried to do) but does not on it's own fix the problem - it just makes the bird feel, look and sound lots better.

 

Because Teddy had an ivermec treatment you can count out airsac mites which is good.

 

So the more likely choices left are:

 

Psittacosis (chlamydia) - commonly presents with respiratory illness but also generally has poohey bum and sometimes gluey eyes but would be my first choice, but this usually needs other birds to transmit the disease. If you have bought in a new bird, handled different birds and then Teddy later without washing or if Teddy has been outside exposed to wild birds it's still a real possibility. If not then maybe not...... and yes different antibiotics (usually doxycycline or other tetracycline or derivatives) are used for this.

Fungal or viral infection - seeing as you are having no response to antibiotic treatment a fungus or a virus may be responsible for the issue.

Tumour affecting the airway (sorry) - the anti-inflammatories may well have reduced any swelling and allowed more easy breathing.

Goitre (spelling....?) - lack of iodine causing swelling of the thyroid blocking the airways.

 

The trouble is that there can be lots of different causes of respiratory disease in budgies. If you can afford to have it done a swab and/or blood test might be the best bet to determine WHAT you are actually dealling with so then the right choice in treatment can be made. In the meantime keep Teddy warm with a heat lamp or similar, ensure she is still eating and drinking, lower the perches so that she does not have to strain herself getting around (more movement needs more air!).

 

Definitely agree that you should be getting back in touch with your vet asap. Good luck.

Edited April 13, 200916 yr by nubbly5

Have you ruled out enviromental issues in your home?

 

Candles

Air Freshners

Any Painting Recently

Temp. in the room warm enough?

Going through a molt and then getting sick?

Tephlon being used in the home

strong cleaners?

Nutritional Deficiency - Usually Vitamin A

 

I did research on this very topic because my own bird died of a respiratory infection, I relate mine to being the room was too cold and he was going through a molt which decreased his immunity and I caught it too late, he was fine in the morning and by evening he was gone.

 

There are many reasons...

 

I would check the above.

Interesting about the myco.. myco is something that rats are extremely susceptible to. Baytril & doxy is the usual treatment for it in rats - a smear of doxy paste with a drop or two of baytril, mixed together and then disguised in their favourite food.. used to go down a treat.

 

I suppose it's not terribly surprising that antibiotic treatments are the same or similar for other animals, it's quite logical. I just didn't realise that myco was something birds had troubles with also.

Did they do poo smears and a crop flush? Did you see a regular vet or an aviarn vet? The gasping could be cankers.

Hi everyone, thank you for your sharing your thoughts and knowledge about Teddy's situation It's been very interesting to read them. We took Teddy to an avian vet the second time round because the first one was a regular vet and didn't completely get rid of the problem. It was interesting to read about how you say Dex can make the bird feel better without getting rid of the respiratory problem. It quite possibly could have happened because Teddy was injected with dex and baytril and his breathing cleared up immediately, however when I asked the avian vet about giving Dex to Teddy he said that they generally don't give birds Dex because it can lead to problems.

 

I have thought about any environmental causes of the problem and I can't find any that are realistic. My two budgies are kept in a room away from any cooking fumes and we don't use any sprays around the house. The room is not susceptible to any cold breezes and they get enough sunlight a day. We haven't been painting etc so there aren't any chemical smells around to make her sick. Just to be extra sure, I also brought the entire cage to the vets to get them to check if any of the materials in there could cause problems and they okayed it.

 

Teddy is actually going through his first moult at the moment, I'm not sure if that information is helpful?

 

About the psittacosis, I can't think of a reason why he'd have it. We haven't bought any new birds and I haven't been handling/in contact with wild birds. Does psittacosis have an incubation period? I'm just wondering if Teddy might have contracted the bacteria when he was a chick from his parents.

 

Another odd thing is that we have another budgie (Henry) housed with Teddy and he is healthy, bright, energetic and alert. If the respiratory problem was caused by bacteria surely it would be very contagious? I'm just thinking if the problem has got nothing to do with an infection but then again, the antibiotics did improve his breathing.

 

The vet did do a poo smear and he said that it looked normal and Teddy doesn't have any fungal infection, which may be caused by Dex. The only thing he did find was worm eggs which is why he gave Teddy more ivermec. The vet also checked for crop infection and listened to Teddy's breathing and said the noise was mainly coming from the upper half of his breathing system.

 

At the moment Teddy is still struggling to breathe and he's making audible wheezing noises all day. He also has violent coughing fits which yesterday lasted a full ten minutes, they were so bad that undigested seed flew out of his beak. Apart from these concerning problems he still enjoys eating and playing and his droppings are normal.

 

I'm really clueless as to why this problem can't be treated, it's just really upsetting. It seems like healthy birds always stay healthy and sick birds are always sick =( It was like this with my canaries. Some were very susceptible to the smallest of problems (and hard to treat) and some just didn't get sick for as long as i had them. It's a lot more confusing because the other bird is so healthy.

I have ust been through this with my birds. Lucky we know what is causing it. We have one hen that never got sick, showed no signs of illness all through quarantine about 5 days after we put her with the rest of the flock everyone got sick, she is what the vet called carrier, has the diease but does not get sick from it and passes it onto other birds. Having said that the vet also said that she may get sick later down the track had we not gotten to her with meds. What you are talking about sounds like Cankers as it sounds the same as what Harley was doing when he first got sick. I would make sure he is warm and eating and just keep in contact with the vet. If they have asked you to give him meds then make sure you are giving them to him via the beak and not relying on the mix in the water as Udgies are stubbon and don't drink sometimes.

 

Also one trick is that if you have the heat lamp ondon't turn it off at night so that bird can sleep, they will sleep with the light on and that way you keep the temp up there for them, my vet says that alot of times people feel sorry for the bird and turn the lamp off at night and cover them the temp drops and bird dies. You are better to cover them and turn the lamp off in the middle of the day when the house is warm for a few hours and let them get rest then.

 

Also make sure you are feeding easy to eat seeds nothing to hard for him to crack, I know that people say hulled oats are the best I find my sick guys will go for them first before eating anything else.

Are you still keeping him with the other bird? It might be a good idea to separate them.

I agree Krosp, good advice.

 

What type of food does your budgie eat?

 

If you do a google you will find lack of Vitamin A is the biggest culprit for respiratory infections because it is responsible for keeping the lining of the respiratory tract healthy. If he is a seed only bird your bird is most likely nutrition deficient...you can read many articles and studies about this in bird magazines, articles etc...

 

When they molt this is a very stressful time and this is when the immune system is down, and they are not feeling well and they are cranky this is when a lot of different changes can happen quickly and we don't notice.

 

Keep him warm this will help pull him out of it and what I mean by warm 80F warm.

My birds don't eat much beside from seed because we first had the problem of them rejecting fruit and veg and later on when I did give them it Teddy got sick with the respiratory problem so I've become paranoid that it makes it happen. I have done a lot of reading about the Vitamin A thing and I think that could very well be the cause so at the moment I am giving them a lot of carrot each day (I don't know when i'll see an improvement in his health if this works though)

 

I have also tried contacting the vet who hasn't called me back today. It's so disappointing to see my bird still sick when I took him along with his medical record to, apparently, the best avian vet in this country. the cost to get my bird not even really examined (no crop flush, blood tests etc were done) is ridiculous. As far as I'm concerned, I just threw one two hundred and fifty dollars down the drain and my bird's life is still in jeopardy. Vets shouldn't charge so much, I think it's just ridiculous when they don't even treat the animal and they prey off our good will and love for our pets.

You need to get a crop wash, a poo smear or other tests done to diagnose and determine is causing this illness.

Only then can the correct remedy be applied.

 

A coughing fit where undigested seed flew out of his beak sounds very much like vomiting which is a sign of canker.

However, vomiting is a very non-specific sign that could be caused by any number of illnesses such as poisoning, other types of infections, injury, stress etc. We can only guess at the possible causes here, but canker is a very common cause of vomiting partially digested seed.

 

A crop wash will determine if it is canker/trichomoniasis which is a parasite infection of the crop. This parasite infection can cause them to cough and vomit, and often a cheesy or greasy discharge or wetness on the feathers above the cere nostrils.

 

Treatment for canker is a course of ronnivet. If it is found to be canker, all your birds will have it, and all need to be treated whether they have signs and symptoms or not. You will also need to address any causative aviary management issues (if applicable) to prevent reoccurrence. Of course there may also be dietary deficiencies contributing the the onset of any illnesses.

 

Canker likes to grow in stagnant moisture. It is common if there is old water not changed daily, wet seed, or moist food is left in the cage for too long that starts decomposing, or other wet conditions such as dirty wet aviary floors, and also during breeding season when it is wet/humid and breeding birds are feeding each other and their babies.

 

Sometimes with canker, the parasite can be present in low numbers without any sign of problems until some other event (such as change in nutrition or breeding) triggers it to multiply to a level that distresses the bird and starts causing signs and symptoms.

 

Parasite infections such as canker do not usually respond to antibiotics (antibiotics are for treating bacterial infections).

 

Ofcourse, you can not know what the problem is if the correct tests are not done to diagnose it in the first place. It might be something completely different to what it appears.

 

As an example, I once had a patient who bled excessively during minor surgery. He had no prior complaints of this nature, but had told me he was vegetarian. So I referred him to his doctor to query iron deficiency anaemia as a possible cause for his excessive bleeding. They did the tests to find out what was the cause and he was found to have a genetic bleeding disorder, a totally different condition with far more serious implications. The point of this story is, that the diagnosis and underlying cause of the problem may not always be as it appears, and it needs to be determined before any appropriate treatment can be applied. If we simply prescribed this fellow with an iron tablet, it would have masked the effect of the underlying problem for a while. He may have been okay, but not if he ever needed major surgery and they didn't know of this bleeding problem beforehand.

 

Ask for the tests to be done, get a correct diagnosis, then find out what caused it, treat the problem and rectify the causal conditions to cure it and prevent reoccurrence.

 

As for the cost of veterinary care, you can only appreciate the overheads if you work in the health industry and are responsible for the financial cost of premises, equipment, staff and complying with all the imposed regulatory bodies.

Vets have to pay their business expenses and earn a living to pay their personal expenses too, just like you do.

On the other hand, they do need to find out exactly what the problem is and treat it (if possible), but you need to take the bird back to get this done, or get another opinion.

Edited April 14, 200916 yr by DrNat

Ask your vet about Syngamus trachea, which is a worm that lives in the trachea of birds and can cause gasping and weezing noises. It is not very common and is often overlooked because of this. I am not sure if it is in New Zealand, but do ask.

Also get your vet to take bacterial cultures and test them for resistance, that way you can tell if they have a bacterial infection and what antibiotic is best against it.

Has your vet actually looked down it's trachea to check for choke?

 

If it is a viral infection then there isn't a lot you can do for it but treat the symptoms.

 

Bacterial resistance does not take years to develop, it starts as soon as the surviving bacteria replicate which in ideal conditions is as short as 20 minutes. In alot of cases of animals with chronic bacterial infections resistance develops to a drug while treating the same animal for the same infection.

 

$250 is not a lot of money when it comes to medical bills. You think about how much you have to pay the dentist and the doctor (roughly $50-60 per consult) and that is government subsidised. Vets do not get government subsidies. Not to mention the drugs are also not subsidised by the government either. In human drugs you can get the government to subsidise a prescription down to $3 when without that it costs about $60-$120. So what you are paying the vet for is mainly drugs. Plus they also need to be paid for their time so that they can actually eat and feed their family and buy petrol in order to get to work in the morning, oh and pay off their massive student loans.

The equipment used is also very expensive. A refractometer costs upwards of $1000 and the xray machines into the tens of thousands.

 

I resent the statement about how vets are out to prey off of your good will and love of your pets. Many vets actually undercharge their clients because they feel bad about charging them so much and the one to suffer there is the vet and many go out of business because of that. Vets are also in the business because they LOVE animals, why else would you devote the rest of your life to working with animals if you didn't love them.

Vets also have to deal with people who neglect their animals, mistreat them, decide they know better than the vet and endanger their pet further, people who don't want to pay for their perfectly healthy animal, and thus it has to be euthanised, people who abandon animals, staying up all night to look after an animal, surgeries that eat into dinner time etc etc, all of which is very upsetting, especially when you hear a statement like that.

 

Also many human GPs charge way more than that and can't cure you either. Medicine is not black and white, it is not an easy fix. Doctors and vets and dentists do not know everything, but at least your vet is trying.

 

You said that the anti-inflammatories relieved the symptoms for a bit there? Well if that is the case then it was not a total waste of money because for that short period your bird was not in pain and may now be in less pain. Depends how much you value your bird's quality of life.

Edited April 15, 200916 yr by Sailorwolf

Of course not all vets are terrible but I can say quite confidently that the vet clinic I went to is thoroughly disappointing and pathetic.

 

Yes the machines and that cost a lot but my bird was not x rayed or whatever. With a vet having had six years training, years of experience and calling themselves the best avian vets in nz, you'd expect them to have the initiative to know what to do. No tests were done on my bird, no blood tests, crop flush, x rays etc, no feeding through crop etc. They didn't even think about doing a poo smear till I suggested it. They found worms too. Now if i had not suggested that, my bird would still HAVE worms. And charging a 28 hour stay at the vets as a two day 48 hour stay at $70 bucks is ludicrous. I was not told about how unscrupulously they charge stays, I think that is absolutely ridiculous and sneaky.

 

When you go to the vet, you expect them to know what to do and how to go about narrowing down the cause of the problem, especially when my bird already has a medical record, it should make it easier. This vet basically just looked at the bird and prescribed antibiotics. You don't need to go to university for six years to know that. It's just really pathetic. Did the vet consider a fungal infection? Vitamin A deficiency? Goitre or canker? Aspergillosis? No. Not at all. As far as I'm concerned, he should have tested for those seeing as he's the vet, the professional, not me. It is understandable why I am thoroughly disappointed in this specific vet clinic. My bird did not get better whatsoever and the vet won't even discuss the medication unless I pay another $34. Rip off. I have no faith in them.

 

I think there's a good chance my bird has Aspergillosis. It would explain why the other bird doesn't.

 

I don't have to be an idiot and just throw my money at these pathetic sort of vets to prove I value my birds life.

Edited April 16, 200916 yr by wei

Wei,

I would just like to pass a comment. I find your knowledge and caring to be of a very high callibre. Your search for the truth and an answer is both dedicated and unswerving. I wish you all the luck in getting both an answer and successful treatment. I find your analysis of the vet and your account of what went down very accurate and shows a great deal of knowledge and retention of the facts.

 

Good for you

I would just like to add comment that there are a few people in the veterinary field that frequent this forum. Something to consider.

Edited April 16, 200916 yr by Sailorwolf

I would just like to add comment that there are a few people in the veterinary field that frequent this forum. Something to consider.

You will note by reading back through the topic Sailorwolf that no vets name has been mentioned.

Yes. I wasn't referring to that.

 

A comment was made previously slagging all vets. Just thought I'd say.

Edited April 16, 200916 yr by Sailorwolf

Well SW, I just had a re-read through all the previous posts and I think the comments were well balanced are quite possibly justified! As Kaz stated, no names were mentioned.

 

Surely if someone has had poor service and the problem they were trying to get fixed is not fixed, then they have the right to feel hard done by. Probably as a vet might feel hard done by if a particular plumbing contractor was paid a reasonable sum to fix a plumbing problem but didn't (or couldn't). A service we pay for is a service we pay for and surely we as consumers of that service have a right to be dissatisifed with it on occasion! Maybe, just maybe, whichever vets frequent this list, might get some tips on good customer service like returning a phone call to a customer.

Yes. I wasn't referring to that.

 

A comment was made previously slagging all vets. Just thought I'd say.

 

 

How long to go before you are a vet SW ? What's involved...timewise and passing exams etc ??

I'm really sorry about your budgie Wei. I hope you find out soon so he can get better.

 

I'd like to take this further off topic, but as a nearly-vet I thought I'd share my experience on the matter and defend my profession a bit.

 

That particular comment stung me too, but of course everyone is entitled to an opinion. That sort of view you get used to after a while, SW. My friend does a little math on her blog. On the whole, (Australian) vets make average money for working longer (and I daresay harder, as a generalisation) than the average person.

 

As for not naming names and vets visiting this site, it is definitely interesting the amount of times I've been at a clinic to drop by (I don't post much but I still drop by!) and the address pops up because someone at the clinic has been here. The veterinary community is also very small. I worked out who it was without even being in that country.

 

If a plumber could not fix my problem because it was complicated, but had to use equipment that was expensive to operate in order to figure out what it was, I would still give him money to pay for the stuff he used. Otherwise he has to pay for it himself despite doing everything he could. SW is right, vets often devalue themselves by offering discounts, and then they have to pay the boss for it out of their own wages.

 

I am not that particular vet so I cannot justify their acts personally. In my experience, returning phone calls is something I see regularly and most clinics even have a set time for making phone calls since it interferes with consults, treatment, surgery and emergencies. It is a service that should definitely be provided, as long as it is a reasonable time.

 

One can't throw every test at a patient without being led by signs, because that costs the client more money (I personally would offer though). I would look at the bird, do a crop wash and faecal smear as a basic exam (it looks like they did that? I'm not sure from reading). One sign does not give you one answer. Sitting here reading I wish I could give you a straight answer, but all I can see is one sign that can be caused by many diseases. Those other diseases usually have other signs to guide you (Example: Vitamin A defcy you usually see lesions in the mouth and happens with seed only diets. Goitre is extremely rare but you can feel it. Canker you see on a crop wash etc).

 

If your basic tests don't tell you anything, you could try the panel of tests (costing more money) or you treat the most common thing and if that doesn't work you treat the next most common thing. Something that is only respiratory, having done a full exam, I suspect first psittacosis and then bacteria. The test for psittacosis is about $70 from memory (would you pay for it and what would you say if it came back negative?) - but again I would still offer. I can't remember off the top of my head (clearly not a full vet yet!) but there is one broad spec antibiotic that has reasonable activity against chlamydophila but will get bacteria too. Still nothing, I'd do radiographs next to look at the air sacs and heart and see if it could give me any other clues ($50 per plate).

 

These are just my views on the matter.

 

Just to correct some things. Baytril is not the last antibiotic one would give, it's up with clav and as one of the most common broad spectrum options.

About the other bird being fine - birds vary in their susceptibility to disease. Especially with chlamydophila, birds can carry it for a long time without showing anything, so one can't strictly rule out infectious causes.

Possible aspergillus - this fungus tends to proliferate in damp, warm litter (linked to hygiene, possibly spoilt food), is there a source it could be in nearby?

Is he sneezing, or is he coughing (or both?) The later is lower respiratory and is emitted from the mouth, the former is upper respiratory and is from the cere.

 

I hope you get answers soon Wei. How are things going?

Edited April 18, 200916 yr by Chrysocome