It's interesting to see the views or understanding of the concepts on Bloodlines.

i guess so renee even know it is your bird you breed

 

Well I do, once a bird arrives here and I choose their mating they might have xxxxx blood lines but the the young instantly become my line but you do need to keep in mine that I am making my own line.

 

Even when I put down 2 birds from the same breeder with the same bloodline they are my breeding because the origional breeder may not have done that breeding and he may not like his name put to it.

As I said, it's interesting on how people perceve bloodlines and Studs. I have my views as put forward, but thats is just that, my views.

I rate others bloodlines highly.

 

For example, If i was to do a first pairing of a Gearing bird and an Armstrong bird, i would say its a Gearing/Armstrong that i bred. I wouldnt call it my line, not yet anyway.

 

If i then bred those babies to other babies that i had bred from the same line, then as the generations increased i would then call it my line that originated from Gearing and Armstrong bloodlines...

 

I agree with Daz, that a bloodline is something that is done over time and is not something that comes from one generation. I would say 3-4 line breeding generations is creating the grounding for a personal bloodline.

 

Bloodlines and line breeding is a lot to get your head around. Luckly my husband is the one who is really into it, so i can concerntrate more on the birds while he plays with the genetics.

 

Shannon, you really need to take baby steps. You run before you can walk and i assure you, you will fall over. Take care of your birds, learn as much as you can and practice breeding on lesser birds. when you setup is up to scratch and you have some quality chicks comeing out from your pairs, then consider purchasing better birds to add to your developing bloodlines.

I rate others bloodlines highly.

 

For example, If i was to do a first pairing of a Gearing bird and an Armstrong bird, i would say its a Gearing/Armstrong that i bred. I wouldnt call it my line, not yet anyway.

 

If i then bred those babies to other babies that i had bred from the same line, then as the generations increased i would then call it my line that originated from Gearing and Armstrong bloodlines...

 

I agree with Daz, that a bloodline is something that is done over time and is not something that comes from one generation. I would say 3-4 line breeding generations is creating the grounding for a personal bloodline.

 

Bloodlines and line breeding is a lot to get your head around. Luckly my husband is the one who is really into it, so i can concerntrate more on the birds while he plays with the genetics.

 

I agree with this chain of thought.

 

Shannon, you really need to take baby steps. You run before you can walk and i assure you, you will fall over. Take care of your birds, learn as much as you can and practice breeding on lesser birds. when you setup is up to scratch and you have some quality chicks comeing out from your pairs, then consider purchasing better birds to add to your developing bloodlines.

Good advice

I rate others bloodlines highly.

 

For example, If i was to do a first pairing of a Gearing bird and an Armstrong bird, i would say its a Gearing/Armstrong that i bred. I wouldnt call it my line, not yet anyway.

 

But the thing is Liv, we have all looked at your Greygreen Gearing and Armstrong birds and recommended you NOT pair them together because they won't compliment each other as well as other options you have available. But still you are tempted because you like the idea of having progeny from 2 top WA studs. Now I will garentee you that if either Gary Armstrong or Cec Gearing looked at that pair they wouldn't put them together either.

 

So this is a prime example of "bloodlines" gone askew. You are tempted to prioritize the bloodlines ahead of visual compatibility.

 

And this is the big danger of paying homage to the holy bloodlines when you are a beginner Novice, and believe me Liv I made the same mistakes in my first year breeding, you think nothing can go wrong 'cause you've got top birds.

 

This is why so many top breeders do NOT want their name used at auction under description of Background BECAUSE people come along and mess things up with dreadful pairings and then try to pass the bird off as coming from their stud.

Edited March 2, 200916 yr by renee

I rate others bloodlines highly.

 

For example, If i was to do a first pairing of a Gearing bird and an Armstrong bird, i would say its a Gearing/Armstrong that i bred. I wouldnt call it my line, not yet anyway.

 

But the thing is Liv, we have all looked at your Greygreen Gearing and Armstrong birds and recommended you NOT pair them together because they won't compliment each other as well as other options you have available. But still you are tempted because you like the idea of having progeny from 2 top WA studs. Now I will garentee you that if either Gary Armstrong or Cec Gearing looked at that pair they wouldn't put them together either.

 

So this is a prime example of "bloodlines" gone askew. You are tempted to prioritse the bloddlines ahead of visual compatibility.

 

I was just using well known breeders names as an example... nothing more

I rate others bloodlines highly.

 

For example, If i was to do a first pairing of a Gearing bird and an Armstrong bird, i would say its a Gearing/Armstrong that i bred. I wouldnt call it my line, not yet anyway.

 

But the thing is Liv, we have all looked at your Greygreen Gearing and Armstrong birds and recommended you NOT pair them together because they won't compliment each other as well as other options you have available. But still you are tempted because you like the idea of having progeny from 2 top WA studs. Now I will garentee you that if either Gary Armstrong or Cec Gearing looked at that pair they wouldn't put them together either.

 

So this is a prime example of "bloodlines" gone askew. You are tempted to prioritize the bloodlines ahead of visual compatibility.

 

And this is the big danger of paying homage to the holy bloodlines when you are a beginner Novice, and believe me Liv I made the same mistakes in my first year breeding, you think nothing can go wrong 'cause you've got top birds.

 

This is why so many top breeders do NOT want their name used at auction under description of Background BECAUSE people come along and mess things up with dreadful pairings and then try to pass the bird off as coming from their stud.

 

I am not sure Liv thinks that Renee. I know that Liv is well aware that any bird or pairing can have an issue. I think it is a little bit presumptuos to assume that any of us knows the way that other people think.

 

I think that as Novice breeders of showbirds we all are unsure of what to pair to what. Yes, we think of bloodlines, but that is because we are told that these breeders have good birds.

 

I remember those 2 birds that I bought off the Gearings. You automatically looked at the better looking bird and went "the blue is the nicest" and to a judge, many would agree, but if you ask Cec on which one is the best to put down to stud, he will tell you the grey, as he has "better bloodlines"

 

Now, Cec Gearing uses these terms and he is an experienced breeder who has achieved more than I could ever dream of achieving. Shoudl we discount his thoughts?

Edited March 2, 200916 yr by Dave_McMinn

Thanks Dave

FWIW I agree with Renee on this topic. I don't pay a lot of homage to the theory of bloodlines but instead try to identify and analyse the desired features and determine the genetics involved and how they interact. It is the interaction of the genetics relating to the features that determine the outcome, not some reliance on a name. eg if I had a Henry George bird then using the bloodline theory a good mate would be another Henry George bird. Sounds fair. But what if my purpose was to breed a Green. If I had a Henry George green does that mean I have to mate it to another Henry George green? No, of course not. But what I have done is to accurately determine what the variety is and select a mate compatible for it. This is what we need to do for show features too.

 

Another reason why I tend not to worry so much about the bloodline theory is that in reality I don't believe the bloodlines exist to the point made in this thread. Have a look through an auction catalog. Reading the description (where it is given) a lot of the breeders (even top ones) refer to having bred the bird from other breeders or list other breeders in their bloodline! So in those cases how can buying this bird be a line of the seller? It can't. Further, some breeders don't list the ancestry of the birds in the catalog and in these instances we have no way of knowing or confirming how closely these are related to their overall stud. We just assume that they are of the "blood".

 

In summary, I believe in buying features, not names which may or may not even be related, is the way to go.

Wow - What a discussion!! All Good points

 

The other side of the disclosure debate is how many Top Breeders would want the world to know when a National winner is bred from there bloodline. I bet they all would.

 

In BCSA magazine last year?? there was an article about Gary Gazzard, and how he has develop his 4 main families, Yellow, Blue, Orange and Purple. All 4 have a common ancestry, but have been developed to contribute different elements to the show bird. In effect he is breeding his own outcrosses.

 

So even the top breeders have different families, which means buying a Gazzard bloodline bird (for example) might not be as closely related as we think.

I rate others bloodlines highly.

 

For example, If i was to do a first pairing of a Gearing bird and an Armstrong bird, i would say its a Gearing/Armstrong that i bred. I wouldnt call it my line, not yet anyway.

 

If i then bred those babies to other babies that i had bred from the same line, then as the generations increased i would then call it my line that originated from Gearing and Armstrong bloodlines...

 

I agree with Daz, that a bloodline is something that is done over time and is not something that comes from one generation. I would say 3-4 line breeding generations is creating the grounding for a personal bloodline.

 

Bloodlines and line breeding is a lot to get your head around. Luckly my husband is the one who is really into it, so i can concerntrate more on the birds while he plays with the genetics.

 

Shannon, you really need to take baby steps. You run before you can walk and i assure you, you will fall over. Take care of your birds, learn as much as you can and practice breeding on lesser birds. when you setup is up to scratch and you have some quality chicks comeing out from your pairs, then consider purchasing better birds to add to your developing bloodlines.

 

thank you for this Good advice i am going to take it in baby steps and gess what ???????????

Edited March 2, 200916 yr by shannon bird breeder

Thank You Daryl. I was feeling in the minority with my opinions on "bloodlines"!

I rate others bloodlines highly. For example, If i was to do a first pairing of a Gearing bird and an Armstrong bird, i would say its a Gearing/Armstrong that i bred. I wouldnt call it my line, not yet anyway.

But the thing is Liv, we have all looked at your Greygreen Gearing and Armstrong birds and recommended you NOT pair them together because they won't compliment each other as well as other options you have available. But still you are tempted because you like the idea of having progeny from 2 top WA studs. Now I will garentee you that if either Gary Armstrong or Cec Gearing looked at that pair they wouldn't put them together either.So this is a prime example of "bloodlines" gone askew. You are tempted to prioritize the bloodlines ahead of visual compatibility.And this is the big danger of paying homage to the holy bloodlines when you are a beginner Novice, and believe me Liv I made the same mistakes in my first year breeding, you think nothing can go wrong 'cause you've got top birds. This is why so many top breeders do NOT want their name used at auction under description of Background BECAUSE people come along and mess things up with dreadful pairings and then try to pass the bird off as coming from their stud.

I am not sure Liv thinks that Renee. I know that Liv is well aware that any bird or pairing can have an issue. I think it is a little bit presumptuos to assume that any of us knows the way that other people think.I think that as Novice breeders of showbirds we all are unsure of what to pair to what. Yes, we think of bloodlines, but that is because we are told that these breeders have good birds.I remember those 2 birds that I bought off the Gearings. You automatically looked at the better looking bird and went "the blue is the nicest" and to a judge, many would agree, but if you ask Cec on which one is the best to put down to stud, he will tell you the grey, as he has "better bloodlines"Now, Cec Gearing uses these terms and he is an experienced breeder who has achieved more than I could ever dream of achieving. Shoudl we discount his thoughts?

I was just using Liv's Greygreens as an example, no more should be read into it.

 

As a matter of fact I have had a discussion with Cec about Bloodlines and he recommended I refer to GENETICS instead.

Edited March 2, 200916 yr by renee

I've been talking to a few breeders and found they all have their own interpritation on what is a bloodline. So I suppose it's up to the individual as there is not "an industry standard"

The meaning of Blood Line from the Oxford Dictionary.

 

Blood - Parentage.

 

Line - Several generations of a family.

 

Generation - A single stage in decent or pedigree, three generations.

 

Stage - A point or period in the course or development of some thing.

 

If look into the dictionary further ( Parentage,Ancestry,Ancestor) you will find that all of Joe Blogs birds need to be related before you can say they are Joe Blogs Blood Line.

The meaning of Blood Line from the Oxford Dictionary.

 

Blood - Parentage.

 

Line - Several generations of a family.

 

Generation - A single stage in decent or pedigree, three generations.

 

Stage - A point or period in the course or development of some thing.

 

If look into the dictionary further ( Parentage,Ancestry,Ancestor) you will find that all of Joe Blogs birds need to be related before you can say they are Joe Blogs Blood Line.

 

I like the definitions.

 

I personally understand that when someone refers to a bird coming from good bloodlines they mean that that bird is the progeny of a family of winning birds, which in turn means that its genetic makeup is out of the ordinary.

But you get lots of different Genetic Makeups within a bloodline.

eg. A hen from the bloodline paired to 2 cocks, chicks have different genetic makeup but are still part of the bloodline.

But you get lots of different Genetic Makeups within a bloodline.

eg. A hen from the bloodline paired to 2 cocks, chicks have different genetic makeup but are still part of the bloodline.

 

Well precisely, that's why I find the term bloodline so contentious.

But you get lots of different Genetic Makeups within a bloodline.

eg. A hen from the bloodline paired to 2 cocks, chicks have different genetic makeup but are still part of the bloodline.

 

Well precisely, that's why I find the term bloodline so contentious.

 

Fair comment Renee.

I did find this definition of bloodline from the Internet dictionary; Direct line of decent; pedigree.