Since KAZ mentioned in my ugly tail topic that Pat has a possible french moult infection I been worried. (especially that I was just laughing it off! I thought he was just messy, not sick!) Is it something potentially fatal or contagious??? I mean, I had Pat for over a year, he's always been looking like this... And of course, if it's contagious it means that my Bud and Godzilla both have it?

 

I wanted to try to post more pictures of Pat that I took yesterday, but well, my computer at home is kaput right now. :\

 

I do have these two of his tail though!

picture 2 (too big)

 

(2nd picture is much older, you can really see he's had a messy tail since a long time.)

 

I'm so worried for my birdies, especially that a workmate mentioned to me a couple days ago that Lemon has messy feathers... I'm gonna go see her and try to take pics tomorrow.

Edited March 31, 200817 yr by Michelle

Other adult birds exposed to birds with French Moult can get the disease, but it will have no visible effects, as FM only effects young chicks while they are in the nest.

 

It’s hard to say if your bird really has FM, but there certainly seems to be some feather quality issues there. Have you cut some of his wing feathers, as it looks like some are either cut or broken? Some birds that have had FM when young will have feather quality issues still later in life, some feathers in the tail look like just wear, but if the quality of the feather has been effected, damage will occur quicker than normal.

Other adult birds exposed to birds with French Moult can get the disease, but it will have no visible effects, as FM only effects young chicks while they are in the nest.

 

It’s hard to say if your bird really has FM, but there certainly seems to be some feather quality issues there. Have you cut some of his wing feathers, as it looks like some are either cut or broken? Some birds that have had FM when young will have feather quality issues still later in life, some feathers in the tail look like just wear, but if the quality of the feather has been effected, damage will occur quicker than normal.

I cut my budgies's wings. He's due for a little trimming right now, like all the others. They moulted away and all... Also, see that fully grown feather on his wings? It's always that messy. He tries but he can't get it to look pretty like the other birds have...

 

The tail just break all the time. Sometimes he has these long normal feathers, but within a week or so they will be bent or gone. He never kept a full tail.

Heya Michelle .... First Question Where are your perches Located in the cage sometimes this can "MESS" The feathers up If your perrches are too close to the cage walls .... French Moult is a disease that starts out in babies Caused from transfering the Disease from Paretnts to Babies ...BFD (Budgerigar Fledgling Disease) Where once their Feathers are grown suddenl lose their Tail and secondly feathers Adults exposed to Infected adult birds can get the disease, Linke Norm said, but it will have no visible effects, However Are known as carriers which if breed transfers to the young chick ( This is How the Cycle Starts Aain ) so their feathers do not grow properly leading to them not being able to fly . They make fantastic Tamed Pets But should be kept Seperate from others as the Dust Particals can transfer to the Adults...... I had Shyanne and Comantche One had Fernch Molt the Other Had PBFD ..... If you look at the feathers at the bottom of the cage you usually can tell if there is a straight bloody Quil ..... Hope this helps .........

Other adult birds exposed to birds with French Moult can get the disease, but it will have no visible effects, as FM only effects young chicks while they are in the nest. It’s hard to say if your bird really has FM, but there certainly seems to be some feather quality issues there. Have you cut some of his wing feathers, as it looks like some are either cut or broken? Some birds that have had FM when young will have feather quality issues still later in life, some feathers in the tail look like just wear, but if the quality of the feather has been effected, damage will occur quicker than normal.

I cut my budgies's wings. He's due for a little trimming right now, like all the others. They moulted away and all... Also, see that fully grown feather on his wings? It's always that messy. He tries but he can't get it to look pretty like the other birds have...The tail just break all the time. Sometimes he has these long normal feathers, but within a week or so they will be bent or gone. He never kept a full tail.

Just read what you posted .... Michelle this does sound like it is FM ... If you are concerend try and see your avain Vet they will be able to explain everything to you about "SPECIAL NEEDS BIRDS"

It's true that Bud and Pat's cage is pretty narrow, but Bud has no tail feather problems... S'what makes me think it might not be the cage. Maybe I should still look into a wider cage someday. It's not really appropriate for budgies, as it is more tall than wide.... Click for picture of Pat and Bud's cage. I got a bad tip from a seller at a petstore when I bought it. And she didn't even say that because she wanted more cash, that was the cheapest model...

 

(I removed the grid at the bottom when they had kids, I didn't want the babies to fall and get stuck in there! Now they have wood pellets at the bottom. I think it's much tidier actually... Putting paper at the bottom of that cage is a feat because of the shape of the container. Have to cut it in a special shape...)

 

I'm having troubles finding an avian vet in my area, s'why I ask so many questions here. That vet I have is a **** when it comes to birds. I remember taking Bud to him when I noticed she had runny poop. He just shrugged it off as "she's getting close to being mature that's all" and made me pay 60 bucks for that. It's been a year now and she's still as messy! He's lucky he's the only vet near my house, he ripped me off even for my dog. >(

 

Still... Now it's pretty much too late to separate the budgies away from Pat. If they were to become carriers thanks to him, it's done already. I mean, Godzilla's his son and Bud lived with him for more than a year.

 

Pat doesn't have much trouble flying by the way. With just the couple messy grown feathers he has he can take flight from the table to the top of his cage with no problem...

Michelle FM Budgie are great they run realy fast (Laughing out loud) like road Runner .... HEHE .... Just don't breed them if in fact it is FM ...... I notice yesterday that the Shop i used to get my supplies from ( I refuse to go there now due to Mis treatin of animals ) is selling a FM Budgie as a TAME !!!!!!! one This is a Bloody joke !!!! Pet shop and other Shops selling animals don't cre of the outcomes just thequick $$$$ The worst thing is it is sitting in it's own cage above the other birds .... GRRRR ....... It is hard to get a Good Vet let alone a Avian one .... Have you tried to phone one and talk over the phone you cuold even take pics and fax over ..... Or email to them for a better Look Diagnosis (sp) ....

It's true that Bud and Pat's cage is pretty narrow, but Bud has no tail feather problems... S'what makes me think it might not be the cage. Maybe I should still look into a wider cage someday. It's not really appropriate for budgies, as it is more tall than wide.... Click for picture of Pat and Bud's cage. I got a bad tip from a seller at a petstore when I bought it. And she didn't even say that because she wanted more cash, that was the cheapest model...

 

(I removed the grid at the bottom when they had kids, I didn't want the babies to fall and get stuck in there! Now they have wood pellets at the bottom. I think it's much tidier actually... Putting paper at the bottom of that cage is a feat because of the shape of the container. Have to cut it in a special shape...)

 

I'm having troubles finding an avian vet in my area, s'why I ask so many questions here. That vet I have is a **** when it comes to birds. I remember taking Bud to him when I noticed she had runny poop. He just shrugged it off as "she's getting close to being mature that's all" and made me pay 60 bucks for that. It's been a year now and she's still as messy! He's lucky he's the only vet near my house, he ripped me off even for my dog. >(

 

Still... Now it's pretty much too late to separate the budgies away from Pat. If they were to become carriers thanks to him, it's done already. I mean, Godzilla's his son and Bud lived with him for more than a year.

 

Pat doesn't have much trouble flying by the way. With just the couple messy grown feathers he has he can take flight from the table to the top of his cage with no problem...

what area of Canada are you from?

Oh tell me about it. I know petstores are nothing good. The lady that is taking care of the bird section at the big petstore I usually go to is great though, she's a bird fanatic... Brings her handfed chicks to work with her. I found that special. And she lets me play with the african greys whenever I want. But I bought Pat and that cage at the petstore in a mall... It's the same franchise, but that one is way way more mediocre. The staff is just a bunch of teens that don't quite care about you and fake being knowledgable.

 

As for the vets... It's very very hard to get a good one, I know... I mean, it's not like human docs. If they make a gross error they know you can't come after them. Take my friend's cat for example. It's been terribly sick, she brought it to the vet. The vet shrugged it off and told her to put it down because it had either cancer or some uncureable virus.

 

Good thing she didn't, a few days later the cat was all better after a good BM. Reason? Bowel obstruction. It's been eating litter. S'why I don't trust vets... Just had so many bad experiences.

 

So, bottom line about the FM... Is it fatal? I hope not... And well, should I give him vitamins or something? (And I'll go check on Lemon tomorrow and take pictures of her to see if she has the same potential thing as pat...)

Michelle, you can PM Aly aka Feathers or maybe she will see this post too or you can do a search for her post on French Molt and her opinion which is good. I have seen many topics started so doing a quick search on the forum will bring up some discussion.

French Moult isnt fatal. It seems your guy had it as a chick and they can recover to varying degrees, Some fully and others with just part issues. The trouble he has with regrowing the tail being one.

what area of Canada are you from?

"There’s no Canada like French Canada, its the best Canada in the land, cos’ the other Canada is a BS Canada, if you went there for a day you’d understand!"

 

...I don't think that's true mind you, I just love that South Park episode. Anyway, I'm in Quebec. Quebec City to be precise.

 

I'll PM Aly and point her here! thanks Elly!

 

I'll post this also...

This picture should be the most usefull, a full shot of Pat from back.

There's also that one but it's blurry. :X

 

French Moult isnt fatal. It seems your guy had it as a chick and they can recover to varying degrees, Some fully and others with just part issues. The trouble he has with regrowing the tail being one.

 

 

PHEW!!! I feel so much better now!!! ^^

Still, poor lil bugger. Bah! I'll just keep laughing of his ugly tail.

Edited April 1, 200817 yr by Michelle

I love Canada! I lived there for a short while when i was 7. It's a beautiful country and my hubby and I want to move there one day

 

Your Pat looks like my late Sammy who had French molt as a chick and never regrew her tale or flight feathers. She was the most beautifully tame bird i ever owned and i used to take her to school with me every day on my shoulder She was very well educated and She lived for 7 happy years :angel1:

Edited April 1, 200817 yr by **Liv**

french moutl theories

Hi Michelle,

 

I got your pm, thanks. Kaz and Daz have both answered regarding this and have given you great info. French Moult (FM) is something that pops up every now and then with breeders with no rhyme or reason. It definitely appears that Pat has FM, as her tail feathers appear to be regrowing okay in the picture. With FM they just fall out again each time they are re-grown, which is why Pat can never keep a tail.

 

I wouldn't be too worried about keeping him with the other two now. There are so many theories of how this disease is spread. Many exhibition breeders, such as Daz, have had cases of FM popping up in their aviaries, which suggests that a parent was a carrier. Yet other birds that had been kept with this 'carrier bird' didin't produce FM chicks.

 

Personally I assume that it is a disease that can be carried by a bird that may only ever show up in times of stress, such as when breeding, therefore passing the disease on to the chicks. Many other diseases are carried in the same way.

 

Psittacine Beak and Feather Disease (PBFD), that Neat talked about, is a different story altogether. PBFD is an extremely contageous condition that is carried in airborne particles. Dried faeces and feather dust can stick to clothing, cage lining, food and water bowls, toys and a whole host of other things. The symptoms of this disease are feather abnormalities that can show up over any part of the body, unlike French Moult which only affects the flight and tail feathers.

 

PBFD infected birds will eventually lose most or all of their feathers and become extremely ill before dying a very painful death, usually from secondary infection or failure of one or more internal organs.

 

Go have a look at lemon, it may be that she just doesn't look after her feathers too well. I have had a bird who could never keep a nice tail inside a cage, but since being in the aviary always looks great. If however, Lemon keeps dropping feathers after growing news ones during a moult then she too may have FM. FM birds can lead a happy, healthy life as a runner bird, but they shouldn't be used for breeding.

 

Please note that all of the above is my own personal opinion and others may have differing thoughts.

 

As far as the cage is concerned, you are right, it is not an ideal cage as the birds would be hard pressed to exercise by flying at all. Have you considered turning the cage on its narrowest side until you are able to get a better suited cage? You could attach the bottom grid to the cage to make a new 4th side. You would need to rig up something for the bottom so mess doesn't spill everywhere (even if it is just paper and wood pellets). You would also need to perhaps clip some of the previous doors closed so that they don't fall open, but with your bars running in both directions it would be very easy to re-locate perches, natural and dowels, and use feeding bowls with pins that clip on over the bars.

 

Hope all of this makes some sense

 

 

Feathers.

Thanks a lot Feathers for the info. It makes me sad that I shouldn't breed Pat anymore... Bud and him had such pretty babies, and I really liked the experience. I maybe wanted to repeat that again next month or so but... Now I guess I can't huh?

 

I went back and took a glimpse at baby pictures of the clutch Bud had last summer. All the babies had healthy feathers from what I saw, no sign of anything like Pat's feathers. I'm not a pro or anything like you guys but there wasn't anything that made me go "Uh, that's odd." And Godzilla is Pat's son and he doesn't have any similar problem. Never has. I also paid lots of attention to Lemon's baby pictures, and she had wonderful feathers (so pretty!!!!). So frankly, it must be that she's just having a big moult right now and she's looking messy. :3 I'll still go over and check her out (I really like that bird anyway, so I do anything to see her again!!!). I'm probably gonna try and go see my aunt's budgies soon enough too... I wanna look at their creepy inbred newborn kid too anyway... I doubt they got any feather problem either.

 

And switching the cage around... I thought about it but I concluded it's near impossible for me. I'd have to figure out how to make a decent bottom for the cage. I think it would be much easier to just buy a new wider one someday.

 

Something like that. That's Godzilla's cage. It's the same dimensions but it IS built sideway (and way the bottom's designed the cage is actually bigger than his parents'). So maybe another one like that. ...I thought of putting all three together in that cage, even extending it upwards using parts from Bud and Pat's cage. That's very doable. But... Then I thought about Bud and I figured she'd hate that. She'd be mad, Pat always prefers hanging with Godzilla and that makes her have jealous fits here and then... So by having Pat and Bud together that makes sure that Bud gets his attention during the day. I really need two cages.

 

Thanks a lot for all the info folks, I feel much better now.

Edited April 1, 200817 yr by Michelle

There's a school of thought with regard to using french moulters as breeders.....some say it gives them an immunity.

I have some french moult show types that I am breeding right now from a very sucessful show breeder. They were given to me to improve some bloodlines.

There is so much written about french moult...whys and hows that it all contradicts itself.

My experience with it, is it is not "catching" to others in the same cage. Eggs from the same parents but raised in different nests resulted in only some with FM and the other eggs / chicks not. Sometimes it is a direct result of bad feeding by parents. I have bred french moult adults and had chicks with no issues. I have bred perfect adults and had french moult chicks.

I wouldnt say not to breed a french moult bird, based on my experience with them.

Edited April 1, 200817 yr by KAZ

There you go Michelle,

 

I know the breeder that would have given Kaz those birds and the information. He has many, many years of experience. That would fit some of my own theories too. I tend to give the 'official' advice in these matters. Check out Lemon and go from there. Maybe Pat could have another go at motherhood again after all!

 

 

Feathers.

Pat isn't a mother... He's a father! Motherhood is Bud's job.

 

That's reassuring! I liked my breeding experience. It was a bit stressful but it was special, and I liked playing with these little buggers when they were nearly all ready to leave the nest. They're so hyperactive then, it's so fun to see them crawl over the couch with big curious eyes! I'm not quite sure yet if I wanna repeat it this year, but I'll think and see. Maybe I will.

 

So I guess I shouldn't be that overly worried about FM... I'll just give Pat extra smoochies.

Pat isn't a mother... He's a father! Motherhood is Bud's job.

 

That's reassuring! I liked my breeding experience. It was a bit stressful but it was special, and I liked playing with these little buggers when they were nearly all ready to leave the nest. They're so hyperactive then, it's so fun to see them crawl over the couch with big curious eyes! I'm not quite sure yet if I wanna repeat it this year, but I'll think and see. Maybe I will.

 

So I guess I shouldn't be that overly worried about FM... I'll just give Pat extra smoochies.

Maybe if you can get some MOULTING AID...a supplement designed for new feather growth...maybe that would help him with growing the ones he is trying to grow and keep ?

yep, I been thinking of doing that. I'll go ahead and buy some this weekend.

 

As for Lemon, she's just fine. The "messy feathers" she had were just pin feathers. I think he misunderstood me.

There was a test done where by birds from around Europe was brought into an aviary and subjected to the viruses that cause french moult. Those that had come from aviaries that had not had french moult got it. A high percentage of birds that came from aviaries that had had it before didn't get it.

 

So there is some fact to the thought that they can get an immunity to it.

I agree with Kaz, the first bird that ever had FM in my aviary, went on to grow back her feathers & I have bred with her & no sign of FM in any of her chicks. Since that time some pairs have had problems, but the bulk of my pairs seem to be unaffected by it.

That is great news Norm ....... Compared to everything that I've either been told or read .... There may be light at the end of the tunnel after all .....

The best green hen in my aviary had french moult as a chick and she now has all her feathers and has won first prize often in shows

So when the vets books and websites say there is no cure to date they need to invesigate more..... There is .... Kaz and Norms FM birds are fine .... Hmmmmmm ....leads me to wonder about everything else ... How did you guys have the guts to take the chance in breeding with them ????? I would be to scared to ???? It is awesome news