Ellulah

Mature Budgie

 

 

Group: Members

Posts: 187

Joined: January 6, 2007

Member No.: 3,070

Country: Australia

City/Town: Canberra

Gender: Female

Breeder: Yes

Show Breeder: No

# budgies kept: 9

Selectively breeding the budgerigars they became a larger framed and healthier bird generally.

 

How are they a healthier bird? From my experience, wild types are a lot hardier than the show types...?

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I hope you don’t mind me quoting you Ellulah…I couldn’t see where you got the quote from so decided to start a new post.

Exhibition verus wild type budgies or so-called pet birds on the point of which is healthiest & more vigorous.

…I used to show budgies years ago & have seen the local club shows scene of later years & now just prefer to breed budgies for pleasure & to make breeding healthy vigorous birds my priority. It’s very hard to select for multiple traits at one time & to succeed. If it means keeping a bird with ideal show type attributes, health will sometime be neglected. I have some British show type budgies & a few seem very healthy, lay large clutches of fertile eggs [up to 8] & have had them all hatch, needing some of them to be fostered. But I have lots of others, which have problems like when they are in the aviary & are startled, birds usually fly to the top perches, but some of the other show types can’t fly more than one metre & then crawl up the wire. Also in the breeding cabinets, they just sit most of the day, whereas other type birds will fly back & forth on their perches, taking exercise, as they are so healthy, they can’t stay still. To me this is the true nature of Budgies. Also especially some of the males I have seen even on the first or second batch of young start to fluff up & look very unhappy, some even die. Where as other birds less “highly bred” can raise four or even more without any ill effects. I have one pair of nice looking show type birds that have had one baby hatch first batch, then three the next, then one, because they had it so easy, I let them have another batch, but all eggs are clear. I have seen top British expert breeders talk of letting their birds have up to four batches. Rob Marshall recommends only letting “present day birds’ have no more than two batches. Looking back through earlier post on this site, I noticed Nerwen questioning whether she wanted to go to the show type birds & whether they were as healthy, but I notice now she has gone for the show birds too. I hope I wont stir up trouble with my thoughts…hope to hear what others think.

Edited May 18, 200718 yr by Nerwen

I do believe we've had a discussion much like this before, but i'm not sure where it is.

 

I think it would depend on the owners/breeders/enthusiasts opinion of health and what a budgie should be. To my knowledge, show type budgies don't have as long a life span as our little pet type ones. To me, longevity (is that the right word) would be high up on the list of what makes a healthy bird. You also want to consider hardiness. If any bird gets sick from the tiniest change in their environment, i wouldn't say that's a healthy trait. However i have no knowledge of whether this happens more in show birds than pet birds or vica versa.

Hi Norm, I can't speak from past experience as far as breeding goes as I have only just put some pet birds and exhibition birds into breeding cages, but that is not going to stop me jumping in here

 

But I have lots of others, which have problems like when they are in the aviary & are startled, birds usually fly to the top perches, but some of the other show types can’t fly more than one metre & then crawl up the wire

 

I don't know where you got your exhibition birds from, but my exhibition birds are as active as my pet type birds, the main difference being that the exhibition birds are more tolerant of being handled. I would be very worried if I had birds that "can't fly more than a metre". My birds all get the same treatment, the same food and nutrition, the same toys. You wouldn't be able to tell my birds apart from watching them play if it were not for the size (and I have pet types almost as big) and the ring around their leg.

 

From the limited time that I have been involved in budgerigar clubs I can tell you that a good part of the discussion and newsletter space is taken up by addressing health and fertility issues. Of course most breeders are trying to breed the champion bird, but there is no point if you haven't bred for good health and fertility as you'll be a one win wonder, as you have no way to back it up. So, as in nature, it comes back to survival of the fittest.

 

I can't speak for other breeders, and of course there are rogue breeders, but personally, my aim is to breed happy, healthy budgies first and foremost. I think you would find, if you read through books like "The Challenge" that this has been the aim of budgerigar societies since the beginning of the 20th century.

 

 

Feathers.

Your right Feathers, it probably depends on the breeder, what the birds are like. The British type [show type] birds I have, have come from pet shops, so may be breeders, not so good birds & also often because they mostly don’t have rings, they may be very old birds. I just noticed after putting down one of my young males, that I bred from very lazy type parents, which may have come from different sources, is just as active as any of my birds, now that he has settled in the breeding cabinet. It may be the vigour of the young, or that he has been outcrossed & the out cross has given him his vigour.

Actually from one pair of birds that I would call show type, the young I have bred are some of my most active & healthy looking birds.

Looking back through earlier post on this site, I noticed Nerwen questioning whether she wanted to go to the show type birds & whether they were as healthy, but I notice now she has gone for the show birds too.

 

Interesting observation Norm Thank for that. It's good to know the vibe your sending out. I feel that I'm still deciding on which path I want, although my view on show budgies as being ugly and 'over bred' has changed I can see the beauty in them now. I have a hen that is from a show birds that is useless to me as a breeder (too old when I got her) and granted she don't fly as far or as well as my other smaller bird. But my other 2 'full' show birds do just as well as them, one is 3-4 years the other 1 1/2 years. So the behaviour can change for each bird and age. My oldest/first budgie is a pet type and she is now not as active in the aviary as she once was.

Edited May 18, 200718 yr by Nerwen

Thats fine that you quote me! I am interested to hear all sides to this question!

 

It is very likely that I have only been exposed to the show bird 'rejects'. I know for a fact that my two show type birds are no where near as hardy as my smaller birds, they can't deal with heat or cold, they don't fly as well and they are not as boisterous. But this is a very narrow field to chose from. I have never been to a Budgerigar Show or a Breeders Aviary, so I don't really know if that is how all show bred birds are... or even a majority.

I think pet birds are hardier, but I lack the experience and knowledge to back myself up! I could most definatly be wrong.

 

I found the entire quote, it was in the post above mine. By feathers

http://forums.budgiebreeders.asn.au/index....topic=15089&hl=

 

They sure are, Vonn. They originated from Australia with early explorers taking some back along with other 'samples' of the flora and fauna of Australia. These little birds quickly became popular by fanciers in the UK and to a lesser extent, Europe. By selectively breeding the budgerigars they became a larger framed and healthier bird generally. Different 'mutations' were also bred from time to time. These mutations occur in the wild, but they are outcast or picked on, so they don't survive.

 

This is why the larger exhibition type budgies are also known as "English" budgies. Up until quite recently the "English" budgies were imported by Australia to improve the quality of our exhibition budgies and many breeders would like to see that happen again. The main reason that it does not happen now is because of the strict quarantine laws.

 

 

Feathers

Edited May 19, 200718 yr by ellulah

Now there is a difference,between wild budgies,the Australian show budgie,before the english budgie come along.In the case of the pet budgie.A lot would have a infusion of the english budgie in them.The wild budgie is atight feathered budgie & 99% of the time green & small.The beak looks as big as there head.

There was a time where I might have agreed with a statement that a show bird was not a healthy or vigorous or vital as a pet type budgie, BUT no longer. The birds I had then, that I would have drawn experience from once if I made a statement like that would most definitely have been someone's cull to a petshop, an aged bird, an overbred bird, a tired and useless bird for a mixed aviary and for breeding. It comes down to the birds previous history.

Allmost all my show type birds now, are from reputable breeders whose aim for the health and longevity of the birds, the health and history of parents, grandparents to these same birds was UTMOST TOP PRIORITY to them. It isnt just about breeding a "look" to the bird by a show breeder but also breeding into the bird vitality, stamina, fertility etc.

I also have no birds that can only fly a metre...those birds I would deem to have serious weight issues, or be a case of a hen that has spent too much time in a nestbox in her past history.

The difference I am seeing in my show birds as compared to the pet types I still have are.............

***no difference in flight and agility in play and recreation.

***the show bird is quieter and more easily handled and is little stressed by being caught up and examined

***the show type bird is less likely to know what "toys" are for and needs other budgies to show them how to play

***The show budgie and pet type budgie ALL display vigorous courting behavious with the same enthusiaism and tenacity as each other.

 

.....In short, I dont think a genuine comparison can be made unless you are comparing a well bred showbird from reputable stock and breeder, as compared to a "culled" bird where the breeder has used it up or discarded due to illhealth or disease in that particular bloodline or family. A very good reason for these birds to have no ring on them.....you cannot age them, the breeder was breeding show type and size birds but not actually showbirds at all, and the previous breeder does not wish to be tracked.

Edited May 19, 200718 yr by Kaz

what can breeding show birds do well here is an example.

 

 

Most breeders these days would say the only desirible feature on this 1958 cock was the spots.

But in it's day it was considered to be grossly over spoted.

 

In it's day it would have been considered a break through and a fore runner to todays show birds.

 

 

This outstanding Grey Cock was bred by Les Lockey in 1984, this demonstrated the improvements in the bird in a little over 25 years.

 

Todays top birds

 

Danial Lutoff - Skyblue Hen

 

Danial Lutoff - Light Green Cock

 

We have come a long way in 50 years. But what will the future hold for this special bird.

 

From the wild to the show.

Edited July 7, 200718 yr by Daz

I love that last picture have seen it before it is just way too adorable.

great post Daz makes you think for sure.

I’m afraid I don’t agree with you Daz, it depends on which eyes you look at those birds, if you’re a show breeder & your aim is to breed a bird that will win you fame at a show, of course you will see the latest birds as “improvements”. If you look at those pictures objectively, you will see something different, the older style bird to me looks much more vigorous, the bright eyes, granted in the “improved bird” the eye is covered with feathers, the sleek toned body, the “improved one” to me looks like a heap of feathers, Zombie like.

 

Scientists & geneticists agree most if not all mutations are faults on the original wild type, Sailorwolf who is doing a vet course explained some of this the other day, in much more detail than most of us know, about different elements in the cells being in a way faulty, which produces some of the different colour mutations. Sickle cell anaemia in some Africans, is the case of a faulty mutation that has turned out sort of an advantage, even though it effects the owner with some problems, it has allowed them to survive Malaria, as the malaria parasite can’t attack the red blood cell because it is different from the normal round cell. The different colour mutations have come about, because of loss in most cases of Melanin, the black colour matter, which is one of the things that protect most forms of life from ultra violet rays of the sun.

 

I now have some of the different type Budgies & can see the differences, granted some show types are quite vigorous & even some young I have already bred that come from birds that had trouble flying well are an improvement, some of this could be because I mated them to unrelated birds & possibly their improved diet. Some have said that the show type is much more tame, this would appear to be true, in some sense, but maybe the truth is that they have just lost the ability to sense danger. I noticed my non-show types fly at being startled, but the show types remain eating. I guess this has come about because of selection, because “tame birds” are desirable for showing. The reality is that if the bird had to rely on its own resources it would be fatal for it.

 

Then there is the Buff factor, man has seen this as desirable, to complete his desire to have the “perfect” show bird, aimed at the ideal bird, which if anyone achieves it, the hurdle will be lifted & another “perfect” bird will be created. I agree man must have his “something to do” & some of these things are needed by us to achieve our aims, but Buff mustn’t be let go too far, they should always be mated with non buff to keep it under control…otherwise “feather Dusters”.

 

Let us have our fun & interest breeding bird, as healthy as possible, but if you want, also for show, but don’t let us get carried away, with our ego, just look at how our ego & the thinking brain has got us in the real world.

 

There is a little old man in Japan named Masanobu Fukuoka, [one of my heroes] who was a microbiologist, but at 25 he had a revelation & left his trade to become a farmer, he is unknown by many in the world, those who know him, know him as the natural farmer. He calls his methods “do Nothing” farming. He is now 95 I met him while I was in Japan in 1984, he calls man’s ideas & technology “when smart becomes foolish” he did a drawing for me then, of man digging a hole, he said man gets his smart ideas [technology] but instead of thinking I’ve made a mistake & leaving things alone, he designs another technology to correct the mistake he has already made & with each technology he digs mankind a deeper hole, which one day we wont be able to climb out of. Look where we are now with all our smart ideas, on the dawn of “global warming”. If you are interested further you can search on line for sites.

 

Lets keep things in perspective if we enjoy Budgies, lets do the best by the Budgie while we are about it & whatever Budgie we breed wont bring us down I guess…but improvement, sorry I think that is just our ego talking to us. I hope I haven’t gone too far & stirred up things, I thought this subject would be a bit controversial, but so far nothing much happened…(Laughing out loud).

Edited July 7, 200718 yr by Norm

Norm you are right in many facits. It is in the eye of the beholder as to whether something is beautiful, an improvement or a step in the wrong direction.

 

Technology and man's decisions have bought many problems. But it has brought changes some in the right direction.

 

2000 years ago life expectancy was 36 to 40 years old. We now live a good life into our 80s and in some cases 100s.

 

The change and evolution of the budgerigar has occured over a short period. Only 100 years. In which time we have found genetic mutations they do excite us and horrify us.

 

It is up to all of use (Breeders) to breed in to the birds not only what is required on the bench for show but also longertivity in the birds.

 

Man has taken nature and has changed it to our needs and ideas.

 

Confussious said "With our minds we creat the world" It is "our" world he talks of. In some countries they have created their world. A world where people want to leave and others want to distroy it. .... But I digress.

 

As with Art, some like the look of a Lutoff Budgerigar and some don't. It would be a boring world if we all thought the same.

 

My post was to show the evolution of a tiny wild bird into what is being presented today on the bench. It is up to others to make up their minds on whether they like it or not.

 

For those breeding and showing, it is the goal to achieve at this time. In ten years time it might be the look of the pet birds. As is the 1958 cock that is pictured above.

Edited July 8, 200718 yr by Daz

BEAUTY… is in the eye of the beholder…I AGREE Daz I thought that to myself after writing that this morning.

Art is in the eye of the beholder. I have seen art that I thought is junk to see people bid a lot of money on. Who am I to say what is good and bad. A very good Australian Wine critic once said "if you like the taiste then drink it."

 

If you like the look great if not so be it.

Yes I agree it’s a form of art, as everything that we do is an expression of ourselves. But it wasn’t about just looks with me, I was talking about the actual birds condition & it’s ability to live well. I read in the Hills District sale post, about how some of the birds are kept in air condition comfort & sterile conditions & I guess laced with medications. I wouldn’t like buying birds from such conditions, as I don’t think they would last long in the “real world”.

I started off a couple of years ago, with just birds from pets shops, that I judged were “good looking” birds, I started off with quarantining them, in small cages in the house away from the other birds, but soon thought that, that was causing too much stress in my thinking, so then I started just treating them with Ivermectin, to clean out worms & lice, as I had a bad experience with scaly mite. Then just put them in the aviary with the other birds, I bought in more than 30 birds without much trouble, just a couple never looked that great, so I got rid of them.

Since coming here to this site I have leant lots of things, but in lots of cases I do what are considered on here ‘crimes’…buying from pets shops, not quarantining my birds etc. I must say I have seen the pet shops that many complain about & I know what goes on in the real world out there, but I am lucky the pets shops here are good ones & I have had lots of experience & know what a healthy bird looks like, so I think I can avoid many of the pit falls.

You guys on here have got me interested in going into show type birds now, so the last two purchases I made, came from “breeders” I have had more problems with those birds, granted the one bird I lost from my first purchase, I knew was sick & normally I wouldn’t have bought, except that he made me an offer on the last three birds he had & I had to take it with the lot on the understanding that I might loose that bird.

Last week I bought some rarer mutations, from a breeder, some are not that good “type” wise, but at least I have the mutations that I wanted. I have had some worries a couple of days, as some looked off some days, but seem to be getting over it.

I know there are breeders & then there are “breeders” just like with the pet shops.

With my first batch I don’t think they had ever seen soft food before, as at first they wouldn’t touch it. The second batch, know soft food, but looks like they have never seen green food, a I gave them a leaf of silver beet, which they hardly touched, my birds would have shredded it in moments. His water was yellow with some vitamin additive; maybe he thought they didn’t need green food, because they got all the “vitamins’ they needed from that.

To me it’s more important to have healthy birds that can make it in life by themselves, I know lots of you say how nice & decent people some show breeders are & I’m sure that is true of many, but I have had experience of showing birds & in my experience I saw some nasty things & fighting. It was for some, winning at all costs & of course the judges were useless & their birds were the ones that should have got the prizes. A scene I thought it was better to be well away from, enjoying my birds.

 

My theory is that you should let nature help you in the selection of your birds, as it probably know lots more than us, even though lots are so egotistical enough to think different. Select birds as you would like them to be, but don’t prop up birds as soon as they seem unwell with drugs. As in the long run it will come back to bite you, as birds held up by drugs will breed such birds & when they no longer have the drug back up, like if they are sold to someone else, they will collapse. I don’t like loosing any bird the same as everyone, especially if it’s a special bird to you, but I don’t see every bird that dies as a loss of one of my family, some losses are necessary to weed out the ones that can’t make it, it’s a part of life…I heard on TV the other night…”If you want life, you must accept death”.

Edited July 8, 200718 yr by Norm

My 2 cents . In my years of breeding and Exibiting show type budgerigars i have met many breeders and still today more then 90% of them will rely on good feed and hygene to keep their birds healthy. Medication is always the last option as you would only use it to save birds. Through selective breeding you should be using the strong birds the genetic traits that you require to have a disease resitent flock , like in nature only the strong survive to pass on their genitic make up , you must also remember like live stock in large quantities the risk of disease increases and all show breeders are aware of this , and take precautions treating birds for preventable dieases such as coccidiosis . Your birds are a hoddy that you invest many hours with and also in some cases many dollars and so to risk buying and breeding with anything will only be risking your stud of birds that you have bred . The eye is your eye and what is winning on the show bench may not be what you like, so breed to the show standard as in colour, wing markings etc and breed the type of bird that you like, not all judges judge the same and if your lucky you may one day be on the top bench. Good luck and Happy breeding those beautiful birds

I've bought 5 of my birds from petshops and the rest I have bred myself.

My vet said that the more showier budgies and budgies with more mutations are more likely to get sick and have problems than more "normal" budgies.

Like when I took Emmett and Saffron in to see him, he said that Emmett (who is a bright green spangle) would probably be healthier genetically than Saffron (who he thought was a Lutino, but I then told him she was a DF spangle yellowface type 2 mauve, with which he agreed that was worse). This is because budgies generally are quite inbred, especially the show ones, and the more different they are from the norm the more likely they are to get sick.

Which is kinda funny, because the closest budgies I have to normal is Izzy, a sky blue normal, and Emmett, a bright green spangle. (Emmett is also a lot smaller than my other budgies, so he is probably more normal still, because Izzy is a bit of a fatty and a bit bigger). All my budgies are of the pet variety.

I've bought 5 of my birds from petshops and the rest I have bred myself.

My vet said that the more showier budgies and budgies with more mutations are more likely to get sick and have problems than more "normal" budgies.

Like when I took Emmett and Saffron in to see him, he said that Emmett (who is a bright green spangle) would probably be healthier genetically than Saffron (who he thought was a Lutino, but I then told him she was a DF spangle yellowface type 2 mauve, with which he agreed that was worse). This is because budgies generally are quite inbred, especially the show ones, and the more different they are from the norm the more likely they are to get sick.

Which is kinda funny, because the closest budgies I have to normal is Izzy, a sky blue normal, and Emmett, a bright green spangle. (Emmett is also a lot smaller than my other budgies, so he is probably more normal still, because Izzy is a bit of a fatty and a bit bigger). All my budgies are of the pet variety.

Im sorry sailorwolf but i would have to disagree , I have normals and sex-linked varieties and my sex-linked varieties dont get any sicker then my normals . As for inbreeding in the avairy if you continue to closely breed the same birds together there is a possability of breeding a genetic weekness in your birds and this can cause the birds to be more likely to be sick rather than the mutation of the bird.

Im questioning your vet can he tell the differance between birds, lutinos and albinos have red eyes also fallows and lacewings , what is he looking at ?

Vets base their opinions on the number of patients that come in. So he would be basing this theory on the fact that budgies with more mutations, come in sick, with congenital problems, more often than normal budgies. This isn't because they have these particular mutations, it means that with these mutations, other unseen mutations can be hidden and also mutation are usually bred into the population by inbreeding to start off with. Because a particular mutation will only occur in one animal. To get more animals with this mutation, you have to inbreed them. And thus generally the more mutations one animal carries, the more likely it is to carry genes that are identical by descent caused by inbreeding somewhere in their ancestry.

My vet is an avian and wildlife vet (which in new Zealand wildlife is birds basically). I think just because he can't tell the difference between a Df Yellowface type 2 spangle and a lutino at a far glance (he didn't look at her eyes up close), doesn't mean there is anything wrong with him. (I thought she was a lutino to start off with) He doesn't need to know the mutations of budgies to be able to tell that they aren't normal coloured, he just needs to know what is normal and what he must do to make that budgie healthy.

 

PS. I have heaps of sex-linked genes in my flock. Infact all my female babies have them. Out of my 6 girls only two don't have sex-linked genes.

One of my little brats is both an opaline and a cinnamon

Edited July 9, 200718 yr by Sailorwolf