nubbly5

Hey Bren Yes budgies CAN cause some real problems with noise. It does depend on how many and how close to the neighbours they might be but at least one club member here in WA has had some significant council issue over noisy budgerigars so some caution and consideration is in order.

Which bit GB? The feeders or the auto drinkers? Here is a thread I put up when we installed the nipple drinker system... http://forums.budgiebreeders.asn.au/index....=25037&st=0 Since then I found that we needed to catch the drips in something that the birds could not get into and we now have a really easy system of attached 1L plastic jugs with floor drain plug to catch the excess drips and keep the aviary completely dry. I will add some pics of those to the nipple drinker thread one day!

I use premoulded self feeding hoppers hung from roof and placed on the ground (white plastic top on green plastic base). Holds enough seed to leave them for a few days without issue. Have recently installed nipple drinker watering system - fully auto with a cistern float valve arrangement so can add medication if needed into the cistern. No changing poo-ie water bowls.

So many mistakes over time....... I've lost some good birds in many various ways due to my ineptitude or stupidity. It happens to us all and it will continue to happen so long as we learn along the way and don't do the same thing twice. (I just hope I don't invent many more unusual ways of stuffing up!).

No worries lealotta, glad to help. YF M2's appear to be a bit more common so I wouldn't at all be surprised if yours are mainly M2's. In DF these guys are nice with little suffusion and nice cream faces. Your creamino's (YF Albino's) will probably get penalised a bit heavily to compete well but hey they ARE an allowable combination so they can still go to a show in the YF class. And yes I agree very much that you should breed the mutations that you like. It's usually the pretty birds that get us all into show budgies in the first place and it seems silly to end up with a stud full of boring grey greens just to win a show if you really like other mutations more. That's why I ended up with pretty little scungy clearwings. They are lovely, colourful, pretty things (what HAVE I done ).

Thanks nubbly. I will try to get this book, it sounds very interesting. Another question you might be able to answer. I read somewhere (i think it was on the World Budgerigar Organisation website) that only Yellowfaces Mutation 1 Single Factor Yellofaces Mutation 2 Double Factor Goldenfaces Double Factor should be entered in the YF Class at a show as too much yellow suffusion will be penalized. Is this true or does it depend on the overall quality of the bird? Also would all these mutations have to be entered in YF class at a show?: YF Opaline YF Opaline AOSV YF Albino (Creamino) YF Spangle (Single&Double Factor) YF Greywing YF Texas Clearbody YF Dilute Thanks for your help. Well here in WA SF Golden faces are DQ'ed from the YF class and can only be benched as a Non-standard Variety. This goes against all other states of Aus who just penalise the heavy suffusion of the SF GF - what happens when one person makes the rules unfortunately. DF Golden faces are welcomed, however they are generally of lesser quality so often get beaten by other YF forms. It seems that little distinction is made between SF and DF M2 YF's or SF M1's and any of these birds are benced in YF class without too much undue issue. Generally the bird is judged by quality. The Aus standard calls for 60% focus on type 15% markings and 25% markings so even with suffusion (unless it's very obvious) a very typie SF M2 will do just fine. BUT in the case of YF DF Spangles and Albino's, the clear body colour makes the yellow suffusion SO obvious that these birds often get baddly penalised beyond the quality of the bird (rightly or wrongly in the eyes of the current standard). As to the other mutations...... Birds are benched according to the highest class number. So for example a YF Opaline - YF is Class 13, Oplaine is Class 9 - 13 is the highest class number so it goes in the YF class. But you have to check the allowable combinatons too. A YF dilute would ordinaily be expected to be in Dilute (AOSV - Class 17) but if you look at the standard matrix there is no allowable combinations for the AOSV class so a YF dilute would have to be benched as a Non-standard Variety if the show offered that class. If the show does not offer a NSV/NSC class then the YF Dilute could not be entered (or would be DQ'ed).

Well he or she is violet and I figure dilute affects the way violet shows up too. I said Daddy as from the little I could see of him he looked to be a nice vibrant green.... maybe indicating violet but it was just a guess. Producing a mauve from her only means she carries dark factor not that she is violet. Oh and S_C, birds are not split for violet they either are or they are not. It's a dominant gene - sorry if I miss read you though....

Wow that colour is gorgeous! Sneaky little violet factor........ from Daddy perhaps?

Just catching up on some of the stuff I've missed while away. A-b visual violets are generally cobalt birds with either single factor OR double factor violet. The dark factor (cobalt) and the violet factor are 2 seperate things. These birds are called visual violet because the combination of cobalt and violet gives as close to a true violet colour as possible. You CAN have any other base coloured bird (apart from ino, and DF spangle which mask colour) with violet additional. The violet factor is like a violet sheen added on top of a birds normal colour. So a bird with 2 dark factors (mauve for example) can also have violet added BUT in greys, mauves and greens it's sometimes really hard to diagnose IF the bird really has violet or not. It's not until you breed a colbalt violet that it really shows up in a true violet colour - hence visual violet.

Olive green baby could well have come from these parents. Hen is an opaline spangle dark green and cock is cobalt spangle - All chicks shown could be from them. Cock must be split for cinnamon and first chick (if indeed from these parents) must be a hen. But as stated before colony means no holds barred and anyone in there could be a "parent".

Yeah, looked too bright to be a dilute to me! Such cuties Kaz! And violet too.

Hahahaha! I think I commented some time ago that people on here LOVE to see YF.... oh and violet too. Budge is definitely not GF but looks to be either a olive or a violet green. Breeding results will give you the answer to that one. Violet cheek patches are the normal colour for budgies. Dark factor birds and violet darkens the cheek patches to very dark sometimes almost black. Grey lightens the cheek patches to a steely blue to grey colour. Oops sorry a bit behind the posts aren't I..... I do that ALLLLL the time .... sheesh :bump:

It's pretty well impossible to give any real sensible advise from individual photo's like this. Better if you can compare them directly together in the same show box. But here are my thoughts based on what I can see - remember to mold them to what the birds really show in the aviary!!! I really don't much like the sky in the first photo but in the second he looks better as he is blowing cap nicely. In the first he appears to have no real feather to speak of and appears very narrow. He has a reasonableish mask but I'd like to see it longer with better spots but he's not bad. How big is he compared to the cobalt? The second bird looks like he comes straight up from the cere without any directional feather but does seem to have more feather generally than the sky. Hard to guage his size on the picture though. I tend to use the line of the roof on the standard show cage as a guide when looking at pics so aviary pics for me give no real reference. The cobalt (is he in a standard show cage?) looks on the small size. If you are trying to improve a line make sure you outcross with the best birds you have available. If you really don't care about improving a line of birds just breed pretty colours, they sell better. Otherwise don't waste your time on using lesser birds UNLESS they specifically suit a particular aim and they are the best you can get i.e. dark factor addition to a line. Although it's hard to really tell here, the cin opaline lt green appears to be about the best of the cocks in the pictures. He seems to have good mask, shoulder and spots. Sits okay maybe also a bit on the smaller side??? Without seeing them together, in a show cage and him front too it's a bit hard to tell - sorry. Just remember using him will give you 100% cinnamon babies - okay if that's acceptable to you. From my point of view I would personally choose the best normal I had to put to her so as to steere away from cinnamon a bit - 2 reasons here - rec pieds look way better in normal and your stud already looks to have a lot of cinnamon (just from the pics). If the choice is between the 3 normals you have here then I'd be tempted for the grey green DEPENDING on his size overall compared to the others but remembering you probably need to look for some directional feather in you other rec pied pairings as it's a bit lacking from him. It's all a bit of a jigsaw puzzle and the trick comes in trying to add the right pieces! Don't know if I've helped here but those a my thoughts just based on what I can see from the pics.

No worries! The normaline is probably not worth pursuing. They get penalised in shows whatever class you put them into (adhering neither to the normal or the opaline standard) and if it were me it would not something I would be keen to perpetuate in my stud. I personally would not consider using him UNLESS he was a TOP bird (features wise) which, as far as I can see, he is not. The hen for the grey green cinnamon seems nice enough and if she breeds better than herself then so much the better. To me she is very lacking in feather but he is not bad so maybe in that respect, it's a reasonable choice. Remember all the hens they breed will also be cinnamon and all the cocks will be split for cinnamon. Repairing the original hen and cock? Well to be honest I would be trying to get away from a cinnamon to cinnamon pairing if I were breeding rec pieds so would be hunting around for the best normal cock (even if he turns out to be split for cinnamon) I could find. Hey but that is just me. If you have a better normal cock than the cinnamon grey, consider that for the hen but if not and the cinnamon grey is the best you have then go for it. Remember that improving recessive varieties comes from using birds of better quality to breed quality splits. The best normals (or cinnamons etc) you can use, will give you the best splits, will give you the best recessives - or so the theory goes!

SWBC did try Champion class here for a while but there are not enough showing people to really support it and it was scrapped within the year.

I will NOT judge him if he attends a show in your BRA!!!!!!! And now I KNOW you have gone soft

Hi S-C I concur with Kaz on the round up of things I don't like about the bird. But he has nice enough feather. The cinnamon grey is his father yes? I don't really think the cin grey-green is an improvement on his dad but then as a split rec pied maybe that's not unexpected - he is an improvement on his mum so that's a positive step. Also does he always sit squat on the perch? If so then that's something you have to be aware of that will often pass onto his chicks. And the cinnamon is a drag in rec pieds. It's an allowable combination for showing but really does reduce the nice contrast effect of the pied but hey if they are the best birds you have then using them to improve the line is the way to go. So my advise here would be that if you HAVE a better bird than him to use then use it. If not and he is your best option use him to go forward with your rec pieds but be ruthless with your cull. The brother appears to be a crossover between a normal and an opaline. Gary Armstrongs Green (or Grey Green maybe) from the Tassie? nationals was the same. We had a judges workshop and examined the bird and decided it was what we coliquially called a "normaline". Oh and NO if you put him to a normal hen (not split for rec pied) you cannot get rec pieds. Both parents must at least be splits.

Hi Daryl I think ANOTHER confusing issue is that M1 and M2 exist within the same show stock and are knowingly or unknowingly often mixed and combined. I believe that the 2 different mutations were idenitifed as being different due to their differences in yellow reduction. M2 DF only restricts yellow without fully removing it. M1 DF completely removes yellow. There is a very interesting section in "Colour Mutations & Genetics in Parrots" Dr Terry Martin, that's worth a read on this topic. In fact start at the start in regards to Parblue genetics and then finish it off with the section on the b-locus pg 241 for some further insight. He gives great detail about the different mutations of parblue and blue (not just budgerigars) and is worth a read (and a re-read I found) for anyone wanting to try and get their head further around yellowface genetics.

Hmmm. Personally I think you are getting SOFT!!!! Naming show budgies what next...........? Sheesh!

Some damn nice chicks there Splat! Looking forward to more pics.

Obviously the majority of people over time preferred the LOOK of heavily feathered budgies. ***** (bet that's autocensored out - coloquial name for a cat that is!) faces, eagle faces, directional feather , whatever you call it has been a much sought after feature. It's happened in all sorts of other domestic animals - Pugs whose eyes pop out due to their faces being so pushed in, French Bulldogs who can't breath and can't regulate their body temps properly due to defects in soft palate and shortness of face not to mention the UNSEEN issues such as reduced immunity etc etc etc. Any parrallel that I've ever seen is that IF IT WINS people will breed for it, no matter what seen or unseen problems might go along with it. So if we don't like all the feather then pushing for change to the way birds are judged will probably be the only way significant change will be made.

What a pretty girl! Wait until she moults properly - cinnamon will darken after the first moult. If no markings after that then she is a suffused DF. If it were a cock you could say definietly it is a suffused DF but a hen leaves the cinnamon option still open.

Hey Grant I THINK I have a couple of DF violet cobalt clearwings but won't be able to get a picture up here for some time. BUT I would guess that one of the budgies on the BBC header bar (not the yf grey spangle obviously but the other one) would be a df violet cobalt - very purple! And yes violet on mauve is definitely possible (violet on anything is possible) but would be hard to determine. Very much like violet greys.

RIP is 100% right with the varieties from what I can see!!!!!! Really nice example of a DF Aussie Yellow Face (aka Golden Face).

Possibily but many pure greywings these days are also showing full body colour intensity. Where as a full bodycolour greywing is technically a greywing split for clearwing. Test mating to a known dilute will give you the full answer. If you use a dilute you would get 50% greywing/dilute and 50% clearwing/dilute. If it's a straight greywing you will only get greywing/dilute.