Norm

:budgiedance:

Thanks for letting us know what has happened, I was always wondering how you went, sorry you had even more problems with your family as well, lets hope things will improve for you now. Sorry to hear also that you only have three birds left, but hopefully it will mean that you have three really tough birds. Did you loose any of your other birds apart from the budgies? If not hopefully it wasn’t something contagious. I would just be careful when you introduce any other birds to the remaining three, maybe just try one bird first to see they are not carrying the problem still. But hopefully it was some kind of poison, which the cause [unknown] has passed. Just a note to all…My understanding is that if you use Ivermectin, it kills both Mites, lice & worms, so no need for a separate wormer. Ivermectin will kill anything that sucks the bird’s blood. No need I feel to subject your birds to extra chemicals if it’s not necessary & also added expense.

I agree with the others, a beautiful batch of young ones, especially like others say, I love that clear winged pied, amazing that the wings are so clear. It’s amazing also to have so many Opalines in the one batch, if the Lutino hen isn’t masking Opaline, but I guess not impossible through laws of chance. Is that last chic a Lutino? If so the cock must be split for Lutino.

Nharvi, from your picture it certainly looks like French mount, I’m no expert, but I think usually birds show up having French moult in the nest or shortly after leaving the nest, I have had birds that look perfect, but as soon as they have to fly the feathers fall out. Then soon after some grow their feathers back & you no longer seem to have the problem. Others never seem to grow them back properly at all, then others grow them, only to drop them again. It seems strange that your bird only dropped them at 14 months; did you have him straight from the nest? I ask that, as I thought maybe he dropped his feathers early in his life then grew them back, only to lately drop them at 14 months. Like you say I have read that it is passed through the egg & I don’t think it will effect an adult bird, it may spread to that adult & if you bred from it, may effect it’s young, but since you don’t want to breed, it shouldn’t be a problem. I also read that most birds, after even having it at an early age, stop shedding the virus after something like 12 months, of course a few birds remain carriers. Others may advise you of their experiences.

Another thing Neat…I have always found that starting out, is the most difficult time, when you buy birds, from others [pet shops, breeders] you are getting birds that someone didn’t want to keep, so you can often get problem birds. I found once that you at last breed some birds of your own, they often do better & you have fewer problems. Also birds that you breed yourself, have lived their life only with you & are used to & know nothing else than living in your unique situation. So often things are hard at first, but once you get over that first hurdle things should get better, good luck.

No problem Neat & you can always ask more questions. I’m sure there are enough problems in all our lives, I just want to say, don’t let keeping Budgies get you down too much, we keep them because we like [love] them & enjoy them. Try to enjoy the ups & downs, hopefully in time there will be more ups than downs. I hope you soon have some “small pink jelly beans” squirming in your nest boxes …(Laughing out loud).

Welcome Tal, I hope we can be of help to you. Looking forward to seeing your birds & setup…Norm.

Like I said & also Kaz, an egg can be chilled to a certain extent & still remain viable, but the incubation period may be extended by a certain time depending on how many times it’s chilled. But if it is chilled beyond a certain extent, it will die. I know you are just starting out with breeding Budgies & are excited to have some results, you will always have some problems, but in the end, if you persist you will have lots of success…keep things in proportion…I know us humans can get worked up, try to remain calm & persist & you will succeed, next batch or the one after, maybe even this one [even if only one chic] after all its only a small budgie egg.

In that sense hens can carry a sex linked trait…but it always has to be visual. Like you can have a Cinnamon or Opaline hen, but you can’t have a hen that’s split [carrying it invisible, not showing]. Which I’m sure you are aware. I was just explaining your quote “I have read that recessive or sex-linked genes can sometimes stay hidden for several clutches and then out they come?” Recessives can remain hidden for several generations, if the split bird doesn’t pair with another Recessive of the same type, passing it on in its offspring without it being noticed. But it’s different with Sex linkage…a hen can be a sex linked colour [genotype] but not split, she can only pass it onto her sons like you say if she is showing a sex linked gene. A cock can be a sex linked colour & also split, but as soon as he is paired with any bird, you have the possibility of him producing the sex linked colour in his daughters, but it can’t remain invisible for generation like the Recessive gene can.

Neat just wait, you still might be lucky, I had a Cockatiel & I noticed the eggs were cold & she wasn’t sitting, I wondered if I should throw them out, but I didn’t & later she started siting again & eventually they hatched. Eggs especially later in the incubation can be really hardy. With chooks I have had hens that didn’t cover all their eggs & some got chilled, but still hatched something like up to one week later than when they were supposed to. Whether it’s good for them is another thing, but certainly some do still hatch.

Beautiful birds Feathers, that YF Grey is really nice. I want to try to improve some of my YF Greys this year; they’re a really nice bird.

Yes as Kaz says, I think hens mostly pluck some feathers, as I always see loose body feathers in most of my nests. But she certainly has over done it, I think usually they do the plucking just before or after eggs arrive, if it’s happened later in the batch, while the young are older, it would be a bit strange, you will just have to keep watch.

Congratulations, but be careful they are very delicate things [the eggs] you would be upset if you broke one…good luck.

:sad: My pleasure Elly & thanks for being interested...regards.

Elly, he had three clutches with a Light Green Opaline hen…two Lutino hens, one Lacewing, three Light Green Normals [one hen two cocks], two Cobalt Normal cocks, one Opaline hen, two Green Spangles cocks & one Opaline Spangle Cock. Seven of his sons have the potential of carrying the Lacewing gene. Some are just now becoming old enough to breed, so I hope I might be lucky to get some more. You are right about the Recessive genes, if you want to get rid of a Recessive gene it’s almost impossible, as it wont show it’s self until two individuals with the same gene connect. It’s not so true with the sex linked ones, as hens can’t carry them & if a Cock has it, it will mostly come out in some of his daughters. So my cock that produced this Lacewing is a Dark Green Spangle…but through breeding him I find he is split for Blue/ Lacewing/Opaline/ Red Eye. What you would call a Heinz Variety…it’s very interesting though…I have just started back with Budgies & I wait with interest, to discover what other Recessive genes my new birds may have, that is not visible a this time. He is very dark Green & the Opaline Hen has very black markings, which has improved the Spangle markings in some of his Spangle babies. Re the belief of whether Lacewing is a separate mutation or a Cinnamon Ino…others more expert than me can’t decided, but personally I think it’s probably a separate mutation. Both of the Lutinos that he bred have no Lacewing markings, so that’s why I say he is split for Lacewing & Red Eye. The Lutino hen I have him paired with now is split for Blue, so I could still get white or yellow young, I’m hoping for more of the Lacewing gene, but that’s like Russian roulette…I will just have to wait.

I just put the father of this hen to a Lutino hen, yesterday, to see if I can breed some more Lacewings, he also produced two Lutino hens on his first batch. So if Lacewing is a distinct mutation on it’s own, he is split for both red eye [Lutino[ino] as well. He didn’t produce any Cinnamon hens, so I don’t think he’s split for Cinnamon. Here is a quote from… Ghalib Al-Nasser…My preference is to outcross Lacewings to normals only and without introducing other varieties into the equation. Having said that, there has been scientific evidence, through the work of Dr. Trevor Daniel in the early 1980's, stating that the Lacewing is in fact a Cinnamon Ino. He went about proving his theory by mating an Ino to a Cinnamon and cross mating youngsters, which eventually resulted in him producing a Lacewing. This is due to the "crossover" of the genes because the cinnamon gene and the Ino gene are located very close to each other on the chromosome. However, many Lacewing enthusiasts have disagreed with this theory believing that the Lacewing is a mutation in its own right. Regardless of what theory one would like to accept the Lacewing is a beautiful variety that has its own place on the show bench.

Like Elly said…the only way to be sure is to breed her to a blue [white face] series bird. It’s hard to be sure using pictures, as especially when using flash, colours that you can’t see in real life appear, whether these are real colours of not is hard to say, maybe the camera sees more than we can. Some Budgie feathers are in the ultra violet scale, that humans can’t see, but apparently the birds can, especially the mask & cheek patches, from memory.

The Creaminos look nice, but those Greys look like they have good potential too.

There is some controversy about that Elly…I have read that fact, that Lacewing is just a combination of Ino & Cinnamon, but others say it’s a separate mutation completely. I’m not sure if it has been proven one way or the other as yet. I think that the yellow Lacewing is the nicest looking, but I think they just come in the two colours, like other mutations. You are right; Lutino & Albino are the Albino [lack of pigment] in either the Blue series or the Green series.

It’s great how we can help each other on this site…Singly we couldn’t spend so much time on the net, searching, but there is so much out there & with us pooling our knowledge, we help each other to see so much…such interesting things…great stuff!!!

It’s pretty difficult to tell from that picture, but I think I can see some blue in the green, near her leg. She looks more dark green to me. I noticed that type of blue showing through the green for years & just thought it was a normal part of greens, but lots of others on this site have said it’s a sign that they are in fact YF masked by the green, they suggest that if the bird has some blue feathers under its wing, that’s a sure sign. The only sure way is through breeding with the bird, you might be lucky with this pairing, as many birds are split for blue these days, if not later, if it was paired to a blue bird, as YF is dominant to blue it will show up in the progeny.

Yes Cinder that is quite normal, young birds go through their first moult at 3 to 4 months & then annually towards Autumn [fall…it’s not only leaves that fall… (Laughing out loud)]. It’s not very often that you have to worry about their nails, but if they become extremely long it may be necessary, but be careful as they have a vein in the nail that can be cut if cut too short.

Thanks guys I’m hoping I will get some comments from someone that can give me more information on Buffs & what the pairing recommendations are.

Yes thanks Paul, I can't wait to see how it & its batch moult out. Also thanks all you guys for looking & your nice comments.

Yes even if they breed, which is probably doubtful, you wouldn’t get half siders I would think, as it’s two separate eggs fused together. Thanks for that site Ellulah, some very interesting pics, I wonder if that half sider, feather duster would live a longer time, as half of it would seem to function properly.