We built a budgie cage recently using galvanised iron mesh (pictures, info, and some discussion in this thread), and eterri mentioned that zinc was toxic to budgies.

 

This was my reply

As for the galvanised wire, I didn't think there was any other alternative. Again, I've seen it used so much by other people (also including my Mum) for avairys that I didn't even consider that it might be unsafe When we went to Bunnings to choose the wire, it was all galvanised. Would it be okay if I scrubbed it with vinegar?

 

I don't know what to do. We put a lot of effort into making this cage, so of course I want it all to be okay. On the one hand, I don't want to use a cage that is unsafe for the birds, but on the other hand, I'm not sure how real the risks are or what the alternatives are. As I said, I've seen these materials in such common usage. I'm really confused.

 

Is the cage at all salvagable?

 

Since then, I've been searching for information about zinc toxicity in budgies. I've had trouble so far finding good information. There are several websites that mention that zinc is toxic to budgies, but I haven't found much in the way of scientific literature. Once someone says "there is evidence for this" lots of websites run with it without ever analysing the evidence for themselves. I'd be interested to see the evidence.

 

The only scientific literature I've found so far, despite searching in other places (scientific journals via my uni library website), were the first three articles referenced at the bottom of the webpage that eterri linked to (which all the quotes in this post are from). I don't have access to the full text versions of these articles. The website that quotes them does so by saying that little is known about the long term effect of non-lethal exposure. This website does not state that galvanised wire should not be used.

 

The toxic potential of zinc ingestion has been proven but much remains unknown about the impact of chronic, non lethal exposure.1,2,3 In fact, the biologic mechanisms of lethal exposures remain poorly defined.

http://www.forthebirdsdvm.com/cagemade.htm

 

If anyone has any references I'd be very interested.

 

My impression from what I've read so far is that the birds who get sick from zinc have generally ingested quite a bit of it, from swallowing large pieces of it (eating padlocks, and chewing on cages (including plastic-coated and powder-coated cages). I've read that the plastic in some plastic coated cages contains lead too, not to mention that swallowing a piece of plastic is not good for the bird, and plastic may break off more easily than metal.

 

Plastic and vinyl coatings often degrade quickly and flake off the underlying wire. As lead is a common ingredient of plastic and vinyl, pieces of coating ingested by birds can expose the bird to toxic metals. In addition, ingested coating can act as a gastrointestinal irritant, regardless of its metal content. When a vinyl or plastic coating is used over galvanized wire, there is the added risk of zinc ingestion if the wire is chewed on and eaten.

http://www.forthebirdsdvm.com/cagemade.htm

 

All the websites seem to agree that some galvanised wire is safer than others. If the wire is galvanised after it is welded in to the mesh, it's a lot safer than wire that is galvanised and then welded. I'm pretty sure that ours is the galvanised after welding type, because it's shiny and there are no metal blobs. Or maybe it's been electroplated

 

Properly finishing galvanized wire eliminates blebs and imperfections, making the cage less inviting to chew. Excess material at welds creates easily removable pieces of elemental zinc. If ingested, these pieces can contribute to disease. Wire that is galvanized after welding usually has a smoother surface, and therefore becomes the preferred wire for aviculture. New galvanized wire is often coated with a petroleum based protective oil. If not washed off prior to use, and if ingested, this oil can pose additional health risks. Sheffield Manufacturing, producers of Tinsley Wire, requires that rolls of wire be sold with a warning label advising of the risk of zinc ingestion, of the need to prepare the wire for usage by removing any residues of oil, and of the need to use a soft brush to remove any tags of material.

http://www.forthebirdsdvm.com/cagemade.htm

 

Does this treatment lower the risk of a toxic zinc dose to an acceptable level?

 

Zinc is toxic to budgies in large amounts (lots of things are), but it is also a metal essential to their diet. It's all about the quantity. Does putting wire that is coated in zinc oxide on a bird cage expose the bird to a harmful amount of zinc? What if the birds don't chew the wire? Are galvanised wire cages less safe than plastic coated cages if the birds do chew the wire?

 

As far at this whole topic is concerned, I am biased because of our cage (which is not in use, by the way), and I know that. I'm interested in what other people think.

Edited January 17, 200619 yr by Ausmoz

My other half is a Boilermaker/ welder who works with exotic alloys(bissalloy, cast etc.) and I was curiuos what my cage and aviary was and he said "It is corregated zincalume sheets with galvinised wire mesh"....."mild steel angle" he also said the mild steel won't put off any toxins unless it's heated(maybe with a grinder or oxy cutter)welded...not sure about them chewing except a definate broken beak.....

the galinise he said breaks off VERY easy if they chewed it ....he said he'd go mild steel....but it will RUST like you wouldn't believe.....he reckons a NON contaminted aviary would have to be made out of stainless like kitchens, surgeries....VERY expensive I truly don't know.....

Edited January 17, 200619 yr by Bec

.....he reckons a NON contaminted aviary would have to be made out of stainless like kitchens, surgeries....VERY expensive

 

I was thinking this too.

all the info i have found says that galvanised wire should be treated thoroughly by soaking in vinegar and then hosing it down to remove any surface zinc particles.

 

lots of people have aviaries here, which i presume are made with the same kind of wire, sometimes sold as 'pet wire'. i very much doubt that everyone who has built an aviary has had it made from stainless steel, it would, as you say, be very expensive.

As usual I have a bee in my bonnet and feel the need to investigate further....This is interesting and something I wasn't sure about and I'm worried because there is so much information that contradicts each other...found this...

" It is well known that galvanized after welding wire contains enough zinc to cause disease, so cages should not be used. Birds need not ingest flakes of metal to become ill, as zinc may leach from the cage."

I didn't think it could hurt them unless they chewed it!!....Who knows I myself use galvanized wire on my aviary

:mellow:

Where did you find that? "Leached from the cage" sounds a little unscientific to me.

 

The "information" out there is very confusing. Especially because it contradicts itself, as you said. Part of me thinks "It's not worth it", but then I think what am I basing my concerns on anyway? The only scientific articles I've found (in the link from eterri) I can't get access too, and the website that referenced them didn't make the wire sound all that bad.

 

Add that to the fact that so many people use the wire... I do know that doesn't mean that it's 100% safe, but it has to count for something.

 

Edited January 17, 200619 yr by Ausmoz

okay, here goes... we do require the trace mineral zinc to some extent, but too much of it can cause toxicity. This can be fatal in birds.

 

There are lots of articles on the internet that you can find on zinc toxicity in birds... I think the major key word that you need to use is parrots instead of budgie or parakeet. I have a cockatoo, his health is my major priority when it comes to looking after him. I've search the net high and low for information regarding parrots and cockatoos.

 

Here are a couple of links to some zinc metal articles. This site is quite a well known parrot site.

 

 

http://www.birdsnways.com/wisdom/ww14eiii.htm

 

If you like, I can try to search out some more articles for ya.

 

Cheers

Cheeta

 

The following site is an article found in an avian and exotic animal vet site.

http://www.birdvet.com.au/frame.htm

Edited January 17, 200619 yr by Cheeta

I think I've posted those links before; probably in the cement/calcium perch topic.

 

Despite the conflicts, you're going to find that most everything says that zinc coating is harmful to birds (parrots in particular because they use their beak to climb around). Why COAT an aviary in something that is toxic to birds? Even after scrubbing, the risk is still present. Maybe it's just a small risk but I personally couldn't deal with knowing that. I can't even stand the thought of my birds chewing on twisty ties anymore, knowing that some of them can contain it as well.

 

In reality, it doesn't take that much zinc to kill a bird. And let's forget about the bird dying, what about longterm effects of being exposed to something toxic? How can we know that it doesn't cause them at least some level of discomfort that we would never notice? With these birds there are often very few symptoms separating "okay" from "death's door."

 

It probably works out okay in many of the cases. But just like with nonstick cookware, there are going to be other cases where it doesn't work well at all. Some people cook with teflon coated cookware and haven't lost a bird yet. Others used it and lost every bird they owned.

 

Keep in mind that there is often a double standard of care between outdoor birds and indoor ones. How many of the people who have aviaries are really all that devastated by losing a bird or two every now and then? Maybe you are, but what about allll those people who you see it "working" for? I know a few people even on this board have admitted that it's not a big deal to lose aviary birds and that they wouldn't take one to the vet while they would take a pet/inside bird.

 

I think a lot of the discrepencies come when you start trying to get people to give aviary birds the same standard of care that we give indoor birds. The rules that apply to our indoor budgies don't seem to mesh well with keeping outdoor birds despite the fact that they're the same type of bird no matter where you house them. This is something that I hope will eventually change.

ask chirpy which mesh she used for her indoor aviary.

 

although there are double standards in some cases eterri (mainly breeders that sell their birds on) i dont think it is fair to say that people are not bothered. it is as simple as there are little or no alternatives. you cannot use untreated steel outside because the rate at which it will rust is as bigger (if not bigger) risk as having galvanised steel which is made with zinc. i looked into it and at the moment galvanised mesh is the most readily available and the most widely used. the only known safe alternatives are to use stainless steel mesh (which is extremely hard to come by) not to mention expensive, or to try and find powder coated mesh that you can buy as sheets (again i have not seen this available).

 

if you are having the aviary indoors, you could use untreated steel mesh if you can find it but again - if water is spilled around the cage or if you use a spray mister - the cage isnt going to last very long before it becomes a health risk.

 

it is going to be extremely difficult to get around this and use a metal which is 100% safe. if you find a supplier for stainless steel alternatives at good prices be sure to post it. :yellowhead:

Edited January 17, 200619 yr by pixie25

It is fair to say because it's true. :yellowhead: I never said it applied to everyone, I just said that it's common and that is the truth. The only unfair thing about it is the fact that the birds end up suffering and being nothing more than a hobby.

 

You said it yourself, there is a safer alternative. Despite the expense, if I were building an aviary that is what I would try to use. If I couldn't afford it, I wouldn't bother.

 

I know everyone has different opinions, I'm just stating mine.

 

It bothers me when I point out that there ARE uncaring people and am told that it's unfair to say. Why is it such a hard pill to swallow? I never said all breeders are bad or most are uncaring. I said some don't care. It is the undeniable truth. So please, don't say it's unfair to anyone unless you're talking about the birds. There is only so much sympathy I can muster towards the human race and when it comes to risking an animal's life just so we can have aviaries full of birds, I can't muster all that much.

Edited January 17, 200619 yr by eterri

It is fair to say because it's true. I never said it applied to everyone, I just said that it's common and that is the truth. The only unfair thing about it is the fact that the birds end up suffering and being nothing more than a hobby.

 

You said it yourself, there is a safer alternative. Despite the expense, if I were building an aviary that is what I would try to use. If I couldn't afford it, I wouldn't bother.

 

I know everyone has different opinions, I'm just stating mine.

 

It bothers me when I point out that there ARE uncaring people and am told that it's unfair to say. Why is it such a hard pill to swallow? I never said all breeders are bad or most are uncaring. I said some don't care. It is the undeniable truth. So please, don't say it's unfair to anyone unless you're talking about the birds. There is only so much sympathy I can muster towards the human race and when it comes to risking an animal's life just so we can have aviaries full of birds, I can't muster all that much.

I'm sorry but I can't help but be offended that people have an idea that because you keep your birds in an aviary you don't look after them as well as people that keep their birds inside......IT IS JUST NOT TRUE!!!!!I keep my birds outside because I believe it is better for them....they get no fumes from cooking ,cleaning etc. Aside from that if I kept all my birds inside there would be no room for me! I get so offended when people keep insinuating even if not directly saying that this is the case....IT IS NOT! I love all my pets and believe me I have alot and I would give my life for anyone of them......yes including my aviary birds.....I have risked my health and sanity many times for birds that aren't even mine so I'm 100% sure I'd do it for one of my own....sorry but I feel this has been building and no matter how hard I try I keep reading it again and again.........I know there's people out there who feel the same.....

I admit, I didn't even read your whole reply because it started with something I never even said. Not at any point did I say that all people who keep birds in aviaries are cruel.

 

For the last and final time: THIS IS TRUE OF SOME PEOPLE. NOT ALL. It was NOT a blanket statement! I only said that it is true of SOME PEOPLE. Not all. Not even anyone personally!

 

This bothers me to ends that you would NOT believe. I hate when I say something, and no matter how hard I try to word it so that it is OBVIOUS that I am not talking about *everyone* someone takes offense and takes it personally.

 

This is why it's impossible to get things through to people. They let their personal feelings get in the way of the information that is being presented.

 

Never once will you hear me say that ALL people who keep aviary birds are doing a cruel thing. I won't say that because I know that it isn't true!

 

PLEASE read every word before getting offended. Keep an open and clear mind rather than jumping straight to feeling offended over something that wasn't even said. I know I'm being a bit of a hypocrite because I only read the beginning of your reply but what's the point in finishing it if it doesn't even apply to what I was trying to say in the first place?

 

And for the record, Bec, I have never seen you as a bad bird owner in ANY sense of the phrase (not that my opinion counts, but I'm stating it anyway). I was only making a point but that point did not apply to ALL aviary-owners and I tried to make that as clear as possible.

 

I'm happy for the people who love their aviary birds. I am merely saying that a lot of people DO NOT. I could point you to topics even here that prove it. (Not that there are many, but they do exist.) It's something that should be acknowledged, not taken personally and then looked away from. Nothing gets accomplished that way.

 

If you love your outside birds and want the best for them, then there was absolutely not reason to get offended.

I know I over reacted but whilst I realise that you don't personally say me....You just write it so so often that I suppose I just can't ignore it ( yes, eventhough you are not presonally meaning me)

I often think how I would love to put little Cosmos outside so he can be among his own kind an fly freely in the aviary.....I hate having him couped up in a little cage( his cage is the biggest I could fit inside) but still not very nice I don't feel for a bird.....I believe this but have never posted it before because I thought it might offend some people but I know that peolpe will understand (I hope).....

The point is that whilst you are being general about your veiws they apply to me because not only do I breed birds I also god fobid keep them outside in an aviary....except cossie....and I wish he could go into the aviary and be a bird....reading this you may think that none of my birds are tame and I can tell you now that all of my birds know Imean them no harm and when talked to gently they will approach me in the aviary and chat....most of my male birds are all over me and climb aboard when I am in the aviary.....

I know you weren't picking on me and I have a better backbone than that, I don't get upset easily........except when it comes to animals.......especially my own. Sorry eterri I just wanted you to know that it upsets me.....I'll get over it ......I always do....

That's the thing though, I don't think aviaries are bad things or worse than keeping pets indoors (usually). I think they can be GREAT things. I wish I had the space (and climate) for one of my own! It's not that I think keeping birds in aviaries is bad. I don't even think it's so bad to have untame birds (sometimes that can't even be helped). It's just that so often you run into people who just don't care and see their aviary birds as nothing more than a pastime or hobby; something they don't care much about. They don't see their birds as individuals and don't think they need the same toys, food, vet care, etc. that indoor birds should get. That is what bothers me.

 

I see why you would feel offended, I just think it was a big misunderstanding. I know I talk about this a lot but it's only because I've seen it a lot. It's the same reason I harp on people about responsible breeding and vet care and all of that. It all falls under the same category which is the welfare of the birds. Whether they are in cages or aviaries or free flighted in someone's home, I just want them to be as safe as possible.

 

I hope that explains it a little better. I just don't want anyone to think I hate them or what they do because they have an aviary because that's not true. It's great to see when it's done properly. Just like anything else animal-related. It can either lift your spirits or break your heart depending on the owner's intent/mindset.

Thanks for the replies guys, although it seems to have gone ever so slightly off topic... I was just wondering if anyone has any scientific information about zinc. Like I said, I've found no shortage of (contradictory) websites myself, but anyone can write anything on the web. I'd like to know exactly what the risks are, and if they can be minimised or eliminated. I don't want this to lead to any arguements, and certainly not get personal.

 

I'd like to mention though, that if people are very concerned about zinc, they should be aware that most of the metal components used in budgie toys (bells, chains, hanging rings, clips, hooks on the end of wooden ladders...) are coated in zinc. I think the birds are a lot more likely to be playing with these than chewing on cage wire.

 

Also, I've always found that birds don't generally climb on wire if they can easily move between their perches by another method (eg flying/hopping), and of course if they can reach their food and water without needing to. Toys however, are designed to attract budgies, and we further encourage them to play with them. Just a thought.

 

I'd be really interested to hear other people's thoughts.

Edited January 18, 200619 yr by Ausmoz

That's the thing though, I don't think aviaries are bad things or worse than keeping pets indoors (usually). I think they can be GREAT things. I wish I had the space (and climate) for one of my own! It's not that I think keeping birds in aviaries is bad. I don't even think it's so bad to have untame birds (sometimes that can't even be helped). It's just that so often you run into people who just don't care and see their aviary birds as nothing more than a pastime or hobby; something they don't care much about. They don't see their birds as individuals and don't think they need the same toys, food, vet care, etc. that indoor birds should get. That is what bothers me.

 

I see why you would feel offended, I just think it was a big misunderstanding. I know I talk about this a lot but it's only because I've seen it a lot. It's the same reason I harp on people about responsible breeding and vet care and all of that. It all falls under the same category which is the welfare of the birds. Whether they are in cages or aviaries or free flighted in someone's home, I just want them to be as safe as possible.

 

I hope that explains it a little better. I just don't want anyone to think I hate them or what they do because they have an aviary because that's not true. It's great to see when it's done properly. Just like anything else animal-related. It can either lift your spirits or break your heart depending on the owner's intent/mindset.

I know.....your right....there are alot of people who don't do the right thing I just wish they'd join the forum so they can learn a better way of caring for their birds. In the end I think we're on the same side of the fence.....to help the animals

I have always considered myself lucky to have my aviary and the birds in it!

 

With the toys I don't really have the traditional toys that most caged birds have in my aviary....mine aren't made of metal but I must admit I was thinking of buying something for Cosmos so that will be something to think about....I've seen so many toys in with budgies and they seemed fine...lived for ages...you never know though??? :hap:

I've seen so many toys in with budgies and they seemed fine...lived for ages...

 

This is exactly the reason I thought the wire would be okay (or rather, didn't even consider that it wouldn't be). Maybe they are fine, and maybe the wire is safe for birds that don't actually eat it too. I have a couple of toys with bells and metal hangers on them myself. I wouldn't want to see the birds chewing on them, but I'm not overly worried as mine have never seemed to pay these toys that much attention (but some birds might chew them, I guess).

 

EDIT (just to avoid double posting):

I need to add that I've just seen some bells online that are plated with nickel rather than zinc. I am actually not sure how many metal components for parrots are coated with zinc or nickel now. Sorry for the above post in which I said most were coated with zinc, I'm really not sure how commonly zinc is used, so I shouldn't have said that. It was something I read somewhere else (on a parrot web page) about the sources of zinc birds might be exposed to.

Edited January 18, 200619 yr by Ausmoz

in answer to your question ausmoz the only way to completely eliminate the risks of metal poisoning is to use stainless steel mesh or thick nylon aviary netting. many aviculturists have used glavanised mesh that has been treated with vinegar and left out in the elements for months and months to reduce the zinc coating on the wire. the longterm effects of mild exposure to zinc is at the present unknown. a bird that has had an excess of zinc from brand new wire may suffer zinc poisoning, seizures and die. if you are worried about it, do not use it.

 

another product to watch out for is MDF wood. it contains chemicals and adhesives which are thought to be harmful to humans (which is why it is recommended to wear a mask when working with it) so in my opinion should not be used to make nest boxes or aviary panels because of birds sensitive respiratory systems.

 

again, if you find a good supplier of stainless steel or powder coated mesh please post it.

 

i found loads of sites with similar explanations, dont know if they are of use to you...

http://www.kcbbs.gen.nz/lori/ar/aviaries.html

http://www.birdtalkmagazine.com/birdtalk/r...ence/aviary.asp

http://www.finchinfo.com/housing.htm

http://www.sabirdkeeper.co.za/aboutbirds_a...ve.htm#aviaries

Edited January 18, 200619 yr by pixie25