I wrote a huge long-winded thing about this in another place and it caused nothing but confusion (because I really suck at explaining things, especially when I ramble). I realized that I might get what I'm looking for if I simplify it to just this one question:

 

How do you interpret your budgie's relationship with its mirror (or other budgie-like object)?

 

In other words, does your budgie think of the toy or mirror as another budgie or do you think your budgie realizes that it is just something to play with?

 

This is, of course, for people who have budgies that have mirrors or used to have them. I'll elaborate after I get a few responses because it seems that my going on and on and on just confuses people (and myself)!

Edited October 30, 200519 yr by eterri

Well, I think they see it as another budgie.

i think casper and peanut both used to think their mirror was another budgie. peanut would sit by it the whole time while casper would zoom around the room.

 

lucky has never had a mirror. he's far to dignified for toys you know :glare:

I never put in a mirror because of everything I read but my grandparents budgies loved their mirrors. Feeding them, talking to them all the time, so I think they believe it is another budge for sure. I put mine in front of a wall mirror for him to see his reflection and he stood up real still and straight (Laughing out loud). I think he was trying to figure it out.

I agree, in many cases budgies really do think the reflection is another budgie.

 

Sooo this brings me to my next question. Do you feel it's cruel to give them a mirror? The mirror can't reciprocate affection so it can cause a lot of frustration. In the same light, do you feel it's cruel to play budgie sounds to a lone budgie?

I agree that they think it is another budgie.

 

The second question is a bit more difficult to answer though.

 

If I were to play budgie sounds to a lone budgie I would want the budgie to be able to see me and maybe think it was me communicating with him.

A mirror-I don't honestly know whether it is cruel or not. It could either serve a purpose for the bird or send him it absolutely nutty.

A very good topic though.

I agree, in many cases budgies really do think the reflection is another budgie.

 

Sooo this brings me to my next question. Do you feel it's cruel to give them a mirror? The mirror can't reciprocate affection so it can cause a lot of frustration. In the same light, do you feel it's cruel to play budgie sounds to a lone budgie?

 

 

Everything is moderation in life I believe.

 

I have not provided it at all again because of everything I read.

 

I do believe that it can use it more like a toy every once in a while or once a week when he or she comes out to play or has free time. Kind of like millet, it is not good for them all the time but it is a reward right? I have read a lot of different stories on this board where some are attached, others are not, and other people use it when they leave. Pretty is very sweet he is not attached really to anything in his cage, I rotate toys every week when I clean his cage throughly but then he is not really into his toys yet. I do notice one thing that it started today. We slept in and when the kids came downstairs he was letting us know that he was still covered and that just wasn't fair (Laughing out loud)..and uncovered he was just happy to see us all.

 

As with the sounds, yes because I played it once for him and he was ticked. Flying around the room like a looking for this other bird (he knew it was not me), and I was right by the sound. Then he just plain was upset and did the whole angry chatter thing. That was the last time I did it I felt pretty bad :glare:. I would say the same thing with a mirror if you provided it for free time and say that he was just angry at that little bird then no don't provide it at all.

 

This is a good debate but I think every budgie is different just like every child is. My daughter can eat candy and pop with no issues, my son bounces off the walls (no joke). When you are writing up information about this I would think it needs to focus on the both sides, I think it is impossible to say no mirror period.

 

Hope that all makes sense :hap:

Edited October 30, 200519 yr by lovey

Thanks lovey, that was probably one of the best "summaries" of the issue I've gotten so far. :glare: (Not just here but elsewhere when I posted the overly long/confusing version).

 

When it comes to providing a mirror, it is extremely hard to say "don't do it" since it does depend on the bird. On the other hand, you really have NO way to know how the budgie will react until the deed is done. So, you end up with arguments defending both sides, naturally. (Some say don't do it because they've had problems, others say it's fine because they have never had a problem.) I think the best answer is still to avoid mirrors completely (because there is a chance it can turn out very bad for you and your budgie alike) and if you already have one in the cage, remove it if it ever becomes a problem.

 

Annnd that brings me to my NEXT point/question. :hap: Do you think that the attachment birds develop with mirrors (and sometimes toys) is an indication that no matter how tame and trusting of people they are, they still deeply need and desire a same-species companion?

 

What changes have you noticed in your birds after getting them a budgie companion? What were they like before and how are they now that they have a budgie friend? How has it changed your relationship to your birds and why? (Did you tame the new bird while it was being quarantined or not bother much?)

I think in an ideal world no pet should be kept on it's own and should have another of it's own species.

Having said that I do think that a bird can still have a happy life with a good owner.

 

My very loving and TOTALLY bonded Sherbert changed towards me once introduced to the two others. He is not the loving budgie I wanted but to see him now interact normally with his own kind is just as rewarding.

However,I now have another issue with this and sometimes feel I am a cruel owner because I only have male birds and they cannot relieve their natural frustrations and never will be able to-surely that's cruel?

I agree that they can be happy as single birds. But there is often a whole other level of their personality that emerges when they finally have a fellow bird companion. Though, they don't seem to "miss" birds unless they see something that resembles a bird be it a mirror or budgie noises and that is why I often feel really bad about allowing them to have a mirror or hear those sounds. Ignorance is bliss, as they say. :glare:

 

That's a good point about frustrations not being relieved as far as the urge to mate. I do think that it is sad that they can't do *everything* that birds do in the wild, including breed. On the other hand, I know there are many instances where breeding them is much crueler than them never having the chance to do so. In a way, I guess that opens up a whole other can of worms because there are so many other issues that go along with breeding.

 

The most we can do is reduce the amount of hormonal triggers so that our birds don't go into "breeding mode." It's more a mechanical process to them, so to speak, so if it's kept under control the amount of frustrations they feel is going to be minimal. That's why I often go on and on about things like amount of daylight, mirrors, and things of that nature. It's so important that we make sure we try and keep our birds out of breeding mode so that they don't have to experience those frustrations and so that *we* don't have to deal with a hormonal, possibly aggressive little bird.

Thanks lovey, that was probably one of the best "summaries" of the issue I've gotten so far. (Not just here but elsewhere when I posted the overly long/confusing version).

 

When it comes to providing a mirror, it is extremely hard to say "don't do it" since it does depend on the bird. On the other hand, you really have NO way to know how the budgie will react until the deed is done. So, you end up with arguments defending both sides, naturally. (Some say don't do it because they've had problems, others say it's fine because they have never had a problem.) I think the best answer is still to avoid mirrors completely (because there is a chance it can turn out very bad for you and your budgie alike) and if you already have one in the cage, remove it if it ever becomes a problem.

 

Annnd that brings me to my NEXT point/question. Do you think that the attachment birds develop with mirrors (and sometimes toys) is an indication that no matter how tame and trusting of people they are, they still deeply need and desire a same-species companion?

 

What changes have you noticed in your birds after getting them a budgie companion? What were they like before and how are they now that they have a budgie friend? How has it changed your relationship to your birds and why? (Did you tame the new bird while it was being quarantined or not bother much?)

 

Your welcome eterri, I appreciate it.

 

As with attachment, to the mirrors. I would say yes they would prefer their own species just as we do :hap:. I believe most animals prefer their own species if given the chance. Expection..let me put it out there maybe some cats or dogs do not like other cats or dogs but I am sure that is the same with budgies. And of course cats are more loners then dogs. There are some budgies that don't get along in which they injure by the other bird. I have read some on this board when I first joined. I really think this debate could be really used for any animal.

 

So the question is if you get a companion for them is there a difference. I don't have 2 budgies, but through my experience I did have 1 cockatial when I was younger he was neglected when I first got him. I spent alot of time with him, and we got to a point where he would follow me around the house etc... One day I had him outside in his cage and he called a female cockatiel that must have gotten out or whatever. At that time I didn't know much better, I ended up getting her in his cage and kept her (I didn't quarantine..that is what I meant didn't know any better I was lucky she was healthy). Anyways there was a difference, though he still loved me he loved her too . He wouldn't follow me as much, he wanted to be around her more because yes that is his own species. She was very wild, hissing all the time, so for about 2 months, I gave the male to my MIL to watch and I worked with her so I could help tame her it worked. She was not as loving as he was but I did get to the point that she would eat a treat from my hand and sit by me. But finger perching was out of the question. I never clipped his wings to tame him hers I had to she wouldn't go for any of it. When I put them back together she didn't completely revert but you could tell some of what I accomplished did go out the door. She was a bird bird, when he was accepted me but did love her .

 

When you take a budgies home is it no different then taking a puppy away from all his playmates? The puppy whines is lonely and is looking for his sibling but as time goes on you play with him, you become his companion and love goes both ways. I would hope if you would get another dog it would be not just for companionship for the lone dog but because you wanted and are able to take care of the 2nd dog. Same with your budgie, you need to spend time with your budgie (quality) is the best, just as you would any animal you would purchase. Your love will then be give back, and when you are ready if you want another budgie for your budge it would be because of you are ready to take on the task to love another budgie & take care of him or her. And also that you are aware that there may be a change in behavior and that you are okay with that.

 

Again, I also believe again it depends on the individual budgie. My cat Maxx is a lover, he loves us and loves the dog and anyone that walks in his path but he always goes back to his sister for a good wash, and kiss and sleeps with her. While my older cat, is very independent, she in the same room as the other cats but there is no way they are going to give her kiss (Laughing out loud). My dogs very similar, Brandy is a lover, Niketa is very independent none of that kissy stuff

 

There will be always a change in behavior when you add an addition, there sure was with my son (Laughing out loud) when my daughter was born. :glare:

 

I have always believe that when you purchase a pet expect to keep it forever, they are not to be purchased and given away because you don't have the time etc...(there are aways some expection) ...don't want to start a debate that is just my opinion . Hope that helps.

 

Just to add to the whole breeding this...I believe eterri is correct you have to offset their hormones. Just because they want to doesn't mean we should let them. There are enough unwanted dogs, cats, birds of all sorts and even children because of instint (we hope the humans have more brains). Anyways, breeding should be done because someone wants to be a responsible breeder and bring a better offspring into the world. Not just to make money or let their animals have just one litter because the kids can experience it (watch the Animal Station..watch it that way), or because it wouldn't be fair to not let them not to have sex. That is all human emotion and human thoughts. Like a man who won't neuter his dog because he thinks the dog will be less of a male or because it bothers him.

 

I volunteered at an animal shelter for 4 years, and I can't even walk into a shelter with out bursting into tears, it saddens me when people don't take responsiblity. It is not fair to the animal (s) and many die unloved or are put down because that one person who let their animal breed for whatever reason.

 

I know my point is very strong above, but I have seen enough abuse so it just sickens.

Edited October 30, 200519 yr by lovey

I'll try to keep this brief.

 

Rainbow did not have a mirror until I happened to purchase one of those plastic ladder toys that had a small spinning mirror on it. He was about 6 months old at the time. Within a month, you could not change his food or water without him lunging from one corner of the cage to your hand in his attempts to protect his "birdie friend". Even if you tried to talk to him from outside the cage, if you got too close he would lunge. Heaven help me when I tried the daily cleaning of the #$%^ mirror because it was filthy. I ended up bleeding every time. He spent most all day with it. He would sleep near it, and ignored any other toys. He eventually didn't even want to leave his cage. I would take him out anyway, but he would fly back to it and hang on the outside of the cage near the mirror toy, very agitated. Needless to say, I took the mirror out. He was so enamoured of the mirror though, that I would take him into the bathroom and hold my finger against the mirror so he could "talk" to the birdie in the mirror. He would've stayed in there all day if I had let him, poor little buddy. But, without the mirror in his cage he once again became a sweet little bird. My idea of a compromise was to take him to the mirror once a day, I felt so sorry for him. It worked out fine, and he seemed to appreciate it. When he was about a year and a half old, I purchased Skittles. She did not get a mirror, even when they lived in seperate cages. Rainbow remained tame, Skittles remained flighty. I still took him in to see the birdie in the mirror, and he still would pin his eyes and have a grand ole time - even with another budgie for a companion. When was about 3 Rainbow and Skittles mated and I acquired my current flock. They have never had a mirror, and when I would take them in the bathroom to see the "birdie in the mirror" they could care less. They expressed no interest at all, only Rainbow. I guess it was because they had other birds around all the time, even when I couldn't be there. Eventually though, he didn't want to spend as much time talking to his mirror friend, which was fine by me, so I quit taking him in to see it. I think he was confused by the mirror, and I really wish I had never given it to him. Boy, was he mean when that mirror was around. I am of the opinion now that if a toy has a mirror on it, it should be given outside the cage so that the bird only has supervised access to it. I would not leave it in the cage.

Just to go back a bit, I think it is cruel to put a mirror in their cage, because, as you said they can't reciprocate. Having said that, they do see their reflection around the house, in the window at night, in your kitchen sink etc, but at least they can't fixate on it like they can on a mirror in their cage.

Playing them sounds is a hard one. They will often hear wild birds outside, or they will hear them on your telly (we've probably all had our dogs 'talk' to the dog on telly! ). So, I don't see any need to deliberately play them budgie sounds, as they hear plenty of natural sounds in their day to day life.

Lone birds? Again a hard one. I think some birds are very bonded to their owners, and, if they are home most of the day and can interact with them, I don't see why they can't have a happy and fulfilling life. However most of us don't have the time to do this, so I think they need some stimulation for the long hours that we are at work. I can't think of any other stimulation than another bird, having said that, there could be alternatives that I haven't thought of.

As a general rule, I would not recommend a mirror for a single budgie (especially male). That said, I have 2 toys that have small moving mirror parts. My female seems to spend as much time playing with them as the other toys, maybe less. She is tame, but independent, and doesn't constantly crave my interaction. She loves playing with anything she can get her beak on. She was like that the day I purchased her, chewing on the price card on the cage.

I'm a bit torn on whether the bird thinks the reflection is another bird. I've never had the issue of a bird becoming "obsessed" with a mirror. Maybe a bird that gets a lot of time out of its cage and has a roomy cage with many toys to focus would less likely to develop these issues? Mine still wanted to spend more time away from the mirror and out of the cage. However, when I've had 2 budgies they have been noticibly agitated about being seperated from sight of the other bird - not just calling to eachother, but appearing to tense up and they will try to get back to the other bird as soon as possible.

I feel that although singly kept budgie can be content and happy with a caring owner, they crave the interaction from another budgie. Many budgies won't allow headrubs, but will allow another budgie to preen them for seemingly endless amounts of time. That alone was one of the reasons that I wanted to get another. He was quarantined for a month and tamed before I introduced the 2 birds. During the time in my room, he wasn't too interested in toys. Now he's playing with everything in sight too.

One thing I've noticed in the past, is that the first bird that I had stayed tamer than the second I added. This seems to be happening again. My new male always wants to be near her constantly and will fly back to the cagetop when I pick him up. However, Carrington will still stay with me longer when I come over to get her. I don't mind it.. they're cute together.

I don't leave a mirror in Blinkie's cage but he has one on his play gym. He loves throwing it around and pushing it off tables so i really think he sees it as a toy. With the big mirrors in my room where he can see his whole body reflected back, i think he sees that as another budgie.