I realize these photos aren't perfect, but they were taken in natural daylight, and I think they are at least good enough to give us some food for thought. These were taken in November of 2010.

 

I want to know what this clutch of chicks can tell us about the genetics of the parents.

 

What I know about the parents is this: Mother= Finnie She has very strong body color, so I've always thought either full body greywing or clearwing. But I think I have discovered based on this year's offspring, that she is split to dilute, so that could rule out full body greywing.

 

 

Father= Donovan He's a normal spangle, split to something, but what? (For the record, he's also split to cinnamon and opaline.)

 

Additionally, both parents have one dark factor.

 

Now for the photos

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Additional information about the chicks, from left to right:

 

Ist chick= Pearl Born with plum eyes, so she is cinnamon. I don't expect to be able to tell what type of greywing she is, due to the effects of the cinnamon.

 

2nd chick= Opal, who is also an opaline. (I know, not a very creative name )

 

3rd chick=Tom. He's been sold. All he really does in this photo is to serve as a visual reference for his normal mauve color.

 

4th chick=Maude (Hey, it's better than Mauve, which was what I was calling her in the nest. ) As she was growing up, her body color was always identical to Tom's.

 

 

 

I know that people will probably want to see adult photos of these chicks. I'll have to get to that later. But what I really am trying to do here is to learn how to identify the differences between chicks when they are in nest feather. Because what I have here are four chicks with four different phenotypes (what their genetics look like visually) but which are limited genetically to what their parents genotypes are, and thus what they could have inherited.

 

Finnie has two types of greywing genes to donate, and Donovan only has one. If Finnie is ?/dilute, and Donovan is normal/?, what combinations of ?s can produce chicks that look so different to each other? Keeping in mind that Pearl's cinnamon washes out what she really is.

 

I guess my questions boil down to: 1.) Can anyone tell what Opal and Mauve really are? Can they use that information to figure out what Finnie and Donovan really are?

 

I think I've already worked out one fact. Donovan and Finnie cannot both be split to dilute. (Otherwise, Opal and Maude would have to be either dilute or identical.)

The only way to find the genetic history of Finnie & Donovan, is to know the genetic make up of their parents.

Their grandparents & their parents & so on way back to the bush . When it comes to colour There's no

pure bred Budgies. Having dominant traits will mask odd colours popping up every now & again till you

change a mate & end up with a new combination of colours etc. Yours B. J.

Bird Junky, you are missing the point here.

 

People study genetics and learn how they behave. They can predict what the mathematical outcomes of certain pairings can produce. This is an excercise in learning how the genes for normal, greywing, clearwing and dilute work together. As well as learning how to identify what those combinations of genes can look like.

 

If it is your opinion that it is never possible to figure out what a bird's genetics are, then for you, the whole field of genetics and color mutations is meaningless.

One clutch is not really enough to draw any definate conclusions.

 

Opal & Maude both have fairly bright cheek patches and body colour which suggests clearwing or full body greywing. Pearl's lightened colours are probably due to the cinnamon (Is she also spangle?). None of the chicks look dilute to me. (I don't think that Finnie could be split for dilute if she is a full body greywing but I'm not certain). Donovan, of course, has a normal gene which is responsible for Tom being normal. Donovan could be split for any one of of the 3 recessive mutations as well as the obvious sex linked ones

 

If one of the chicks had been a definite dilute you could be sure that both Finnie and Donovan were both split for dilute. It could happen in the next clutch. Without a dilute chick Finnie might not be split and Donovan could be split for clearwing or greywing

 

If Finnie is split for dilute then Donovan must be split for either clearwing or greywing

Edited January 22, 201213 yr by Neville

Bird Junky, you are missing the point here.

 

People study genetics and learn how they behave. They can predict what the mathematical outcomes of certain pairings can produce. This is an excercise in learning how the genes for normal, greywing, clearwing and dilute work together. As well as learning how to identify what those combinations of genes can look like.

 

If it is your opinion that it is never possible to figure out what a bird's genetics are, then for you, the whole field of genetics and color mutations is meaningless.

 

Hi Finnie, Yes I know People study genetics. They were at it long before I started back in the 50's

 

& a mathematical prediction is still only an educated guess. Your best bet would be to breed with

 

this pair till you have enough offspring, say 100. Then you'l be able to make your own predictions.

 

Yours B. J.

 

 

 

Bird Junky, you are missing the point here.

 

People study genetics and learn how they behave. They can predict what the mathematical outcomes of certain pairings can produce. This is an excercise in learning how the genes for normal, greywing, clearwing and dilute work together. As well as learning how to identify what those combinations of genes can look like.

 

If it is your opinion that it is never possible to figure out what a bird's genetics are, then for you, the whole field of genetics and color mutations is meaningless.

 

Hi Finnie, Yes I know People study genetics. They were at it long before I started back in the 50's

 

& a mathematical prediction is still only an educated guess. Your best bet would be to breed with

 

this pair till you have enough offspring, say 100. Then you'l be able to make your own predictions.

 

Yours B. J.

It is not just an educated guess. It is a mathematical probability. A pair normal budgies would only have to produce one chick of a recessive mutation to prove that they were both split for that recessive mutation. Once the presence of a mutation is proven predictions of the outcome from a pair can be made

 

 

 

Bird Junky, you are missing the point here.

 

People study genetics and learn how they behave. They can predict what the mathematical outcomes of certain pairings can produce. This is an excercise in learning how the genes for normal, greywing, clearwing and dilute work together. As well as learning how to identify what those combinations of genes can look like.

 

If it is your opinion that it is never possible to figure out what a bird's genetics are, then for you, the whole field of genetics and color mutations is meaningless.

 

Hi Finnie, Yes I know People study genetics. They were at it long before I started back in the 50's

 

& a mathematical prediction is still only an educated guess. Your best bet would be to breed with

 

this pair till you have enough offspring, say 100. Then you'l be able to make your own predictions.

 

Yours B. J.

It is not just an educated guess. It is a mathematical probability. A pair normal budgies would only have to produce one chick of a recessive mutation to prove that they were both split for that recessive mutation. Once the presence of a mutation is proven predictions of the outcome from a pair can be made

 

I would think that 90% of show Breeders,would be breeding to set lines & keeping away

from,minor breeds & never give Genetics,a second thought.

One clutch is not really enough to draw any definate conclusions.

 

Opal & Maude both have fairly bright cheek patches and body colour which suggests clearwing or full body greywing. Pearl's lightened colours are probably due to the cinnamon (Is she also spangle?). None of the chicks look dilute to me. (I don't think that Finnie could be split for dilute if she is a full body greywing but I'm not certain). Donovan, of course, has a normal gene which is responsible for Tom being normal. Donovan could be split for any one of of the 3 recessive mutations as well as the obvious sex linked ones

 

If one of the chicks had been a definite dilute you could be sure that both Finnie and Donovan were both split for dilute. It could happen in the next clutch. Without a dilute chick Finnie might not be split and Donovan could be split for clearwing or greywing

 

If Finnie is split for dilute then Donovan must be split for either clearwing or greywing

 

 

Thank you, Neville, for your thoughtful and informative answers to my questions.

 

I was thinking the same things that you have said about Opal, Maude and Pearl. (No, Pearl isn't spangle.) The reason I think Finnie may be split to dilute is that I bred her to a dilute cock, and some of the chicks seemed to come out as dilutes. But I'm planning to wait and see if they darken up once the molt.

 

 

It surprised me to get dilutes, because I had been leaning toward Finnie being full body greywing, which would be greywing/clearwing, with no possiblity of being split to dilute. But I guess she could possibly be a clearwing/dilute, which would mean that she was what they call a "dirty" clearwing. From a distance, her wings look kind of light, but up close, you can see that they have well defined grey markings. And of course, there is also the possibility that she is one of those "regular" greywings that just have no dilution to their body color, so they look as though they are full body greywings.

 

I have bred Opal to a dilute cock, and am hoping that her chicks, when they feather up, will tell me more information. And I'm hoping to also breed Donovan to a dilute hen, if I can figure out whether the ones I have available are truly dilutes.

 

 

I drew up a whole bunch of Punnet squares for all the different possible genetic combinations of both Finnie and Donovan, and compared what the possible outcomes would be for each one, to what Opal and Maude could possibly be. But it is subject to interpretation based on whether Opal and Maude can be classified as being the same type, or whether they cannot be considered the same type. (Due to the fact that they look so different to each other.)

 

 

If they can be considered variations of the same mutation, then pretty much anything is up for grabs. But if Opal can be considered full body greywing and Maude a clearwing, then only two of the Punnet squares can fit. Those are for Donovan to be split to clearwing and Finnie to be greywing and split to either dilute or clearwing. The other Punnet squares don't support Opal and Maude having different genetics to each other.

 

As Neville pointed out, they both have bright cheek patches and body color. It is the level of grey markings on their wings that is open to interpretation.

 

 

Not all of us can breed budgies for exhibiton. But for some of us there is geat enjoyment in mixing and matching the color genes available in our flock, much like using an artist's pallet. Some of you are lucky enough to do both.

Bird Junky, you are missing the point here.

 

People study genetics and learn how they behave. They can predict what the mathematical outcomes of certain pairings can produce. This is an excercise in learning how the genes for normal, greywing, clearwing and dilute work together. As well as learning how to identify what those combinations of genes can look like.

 

If it is your opinion that it is never possible to figure out what a bird's genetics are, then for you, the whole field of genetics and color mutations is meaningless.

 

Hi Finnie, Yes I know People study genetics. They were at it long before I started back in the 50's

 

& a mathematical prediction is still only an educated guess. Your best bet would be to breed with

 

this pair till you have enough offspring, say 100. Then you'l be able to make your own predictions.

 

Yours B. J.

It is not just an educated guess. It is a mathematical probability. A pair normal budgies would only have to produce one chick of a recessive mutation to prove that they were both split for that recessive mutation. Once the presence of a mutation is proven predictions of the outcome from a pair can be made

 

I would think that 90% of show Breeders,would be breeding to set lines & keeping away

from,minor breeds & never give Genetics,a second thought.

 

I think you will find that the 90% of show breeders give a lot more thought to genetics than they realise. Large round spots, depth of mask, clarity of wing markings, directional feathering ect, all genetically managed, that is why they stick to certain lines because they know that genetically these lines produce what they are looking for. Then they use prepotent genetics to introduce desired features. Just not so much thought about effects and workings of minor variety genetics.

Bird Junky, you are missing the point here.

 

People study genetics and learn how they behave. They can predict what the mathematical outcomes of certain pairings can produce. This is an excercise in learning how the genes for normal, greywing, clearwing and dilute work together. As well as learning how to identify what those combinations of genes can look like.

 

If it is your opinion that it is never possible to figure out what a bird's genetics are, then for you, the whole field of genetics and color mutations is meaningless.

 

Hi Finnie, Yes I know People study genetics. They were at it long before I started back in the 50's

 

& a mathematical prediction is still only an educated guess. Your best bet would be to breed with

 

this pair till you have enough offspring, say 100. Then you'l be able to make your own predictions.

 

Yours B. J.

It is not just an educated guess. It is a mathematical probability. A pair normal budgies would only have to produce one chick of a recessive mutation to prove that they were both split for that recessive mutation. Once the presence of a mutation is proven predictions of the outcome from a pair can be made

 

I would think that 90% of show Breeders,would be breeding to set lines & keeping away

from,minor breeds & never give Genetics,a second thought.

 

They may not "Give it a second thought" but they do in fact use genetics for their breeding Everything to do with a bird is Genetics From the size the color the spots every little detail all has to do with genetics. Genetics plays the entire part of breeding. even if people don't think about it. Even if a person just puts a bunch of birds together and gives them a box and lets them to do their own thing Genetics is still right there in their face and its Everything there is about breeding with out genetics there wouldn't be no point to breeding.

 

if a breeder wants a bigger bird they have to use the genetics of the birds they have to be able to get that bigger bird. If a breeder wants a certain color Say a yellow face cinnamon Opaline sky blue - Well they can't just snap their fingers and say I want this mutation Give it to me. They have to pair the birds up correctly and if the pairs do not have the proper genetics to give those mutations Then they won't ever give them. If they want big throat spots I doubt they'd pair up birds who both have small throat spots or one with small throat spots and one with barely any. So genetics Is and always will be part of a breeders daily life even if they don't "think about it" they are using genetics to get better birds.

Bird Junky, you are missing the point here.

 

People study genetics and learn how they behave. They can predict what the mathematical outcomes of certain pairings can produce. This is an excercise in learning how the genes for normal, greywing, clearwing and dilute work together. As well as learning how to identify what those combinations of genes can look like.

 

If it is your opinion that it is never possible to figure out what a bird's genetics are, then for you, the whole field of genetics and color mutations is meaningless.

 

Hi Finnie, Yes I know People study genetics. They were at it long before I started back in the 50's

 

& a mathematical prediction is still only an educated guess. Your best bet would be to breed with

 

this pair till you have enough offspring, say 100. Then you'l be able to make your own predictions.

 

Yours B. J.

 

 

From Neville

 

 

It is not just an educated guess. It is a mathematical probability. A pair normal budgies would only have to produce one chick of a recessive mutation to prove that they were both split for that recessive mutation. Once the presence of a mutation is proven predictions of the outcome from a pair can be made

 

Your probably right, Nev.. Yours B. J.