Can a plum eyed chick have its eyes turn to black before it hatches?

 

Or phrased another way, can a cinnamon chick be born with black eyes?

 

I asked this question in my thread about Mystery's chicks, but it got buried in there, and I don't think anybody noticed it. Besides, now I have another nest of plum eyed chicks, and one that had black eyes on hatching is starting to look like it might be cinnamon. (But I had written down black with a question mark, so maybe it was born with iffy colored eyes.)

 

So has anybody else experienced this? Is it a hard and fast rule that all cinnamons will have plum eyes?

In my experience all cinnamon have plum eyes. Sometimes it just down to interpretation of what you see BUT there is a definite difference between a plum eyed chick and a black eyed chick

 

Plum eyes chicks at hatching can be recsssive pieds, cinnamon, and df spangles

Finnie a cinnamon is a cinnamon and the plum eye is a distinguishing feature - if it doesn't have a plum eye then it's not a cinnamon. But as Kaz says, sometimes it's pretty hard to tell and some plum eyes are more obvious than others.

Can a plum eyed chick have its eyes turn to black before it hatches?

 

Or phrased another way, can a cinnamon chick be born with black eyes?

 

 

I doubt this. Plum eyed chicks ( once you learn how to recognise plum eyes ) are real easy to spot.

 

Why dont you post the chick thats causing you concern and we discuss it ?

some plum eyes are more obvious than others.

 

 

Well I would say that's the key to it right there. The obvious plum eyes are easy to spot. If it's less obvious, then maybe that's why I put down "black?" for the eye color.

 

And then I had the same problem in Mystery's nest, where I didn't think any of the eyes were plum, but put question marks by a couple. And then GB said she thought one of them was a hen, and cinnamon at that. (I'll update those later, I kept two and they are moulting already, so their feather colors should look better afterwards.)

 

Why dont you post the chick thats causing you concern and we discuss it ?

 

Hee, hee, I'll tell you why, cuz I'm jumping the gun on it a little, and it's still a little early to be guessing, but it just started to look brownish to me.

 

I have a couple photos. I can go upload them to photobucket, and then maybe tomorrow I can get more, seeing as their feathers grow so much each day.

 

Yesterday:

 

 

 

And Today:

 

 

(Took the tail shot hoping to tell if it was spangle, and it is, yay!)

Looking cinnamon spangle to me

Well, I know there can be variation between cinnamons, with some being easy to see that it's brown, and others less easy. Today's pics of the oldest chick make it look way less brown, especially in comparison to the second chick, which did have plum eyes, and is feathering up a much lighter brown.

 

All 5 from this clutch:

 

 

Oldest chick:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Second chick:

 

 

 

If the oldest chick really turns out to be cinnamon, it might make an interesting observation to note whether having "hard to differentiate plum eyes on hatching" coincides with "hard to differentiate cinnamon wing color".

 

A friend of my daughter's said it was really cool that I was kind of doing genetic experiments. I really do find this kind of thing fascinating. I just wish I had the capability of doing it on a much grander scale, so that my numbers and percentages could be more scientifically meaningful. When all I can do is observe one specimen here, and another there, it's really only just anecdotal.

 

But that's where a forum comes in handy, because I can ask all of you guys if you ever run across similar incidences.

 

 

Oh, and out of 5 chicks, there were only two with black eyes, so if this one turns out to be cinnamon, that leaves me with only one normal, which I would have liked to have some variation.

Well, I know there can be variation between cinnamons, with some being easy to see that it's brown, and others less easy. Today's pics of the oldest chick make it look way less brown, especially in comparison to the second chick, which did have plum eyes, and is feathering up a much lighter brown.

 

Different levels of plum eyes may well equate to different levels of cinnamon I have never taken stock of this so can't comment. It is possible that the chick with the darker 'plum eye' may not be cinnamon but rather a normal with a reduced eye colour. Something to consider.

 

Finnie I don't think you have told us what the parents are. This can help to some degree to determine the outcome, as can a pedigree if you have one or previous matings.

 

All 5 from this clutch:

 

 

The oldest chick in this photo is definately darker than the 2nd oldest. They are both to be seen as spangles as you can see this in the pin feathers, especially those in the flight feather area.

 

Oldest chick:

 

 

 

In this picture above I don't see cinnamon.

 

 

 

Second chick:

 

Now in this picture above this one does look like a cinnamon spangle.

 

 

 

 

If the oldest chick really turns out to be cinnamon, it might make an interesting observation to note whether having "hard to differentiate plum eyes on hatching" coincides with "hard to differentiate cinnamon wing color".

 

A friend of my daughter's said it was really cool that I was kind of doing genetic experiments. I really do find this kind of thing fascinating. I just wish I had the capability of doing it on a much grander scale, so that my numbers and percentages could be more scientifically meaningful. When all I can do is observe one specimen here, and another there, it's really only just anecdotal.

 

But that's where a forum comes in handy, because I can ask all of you guys if you ever run across similar incidences.

 

 

Oh, and out of 5 chicks, there were only two with black eyes, so if this one turns out to be cinnamon, that leaves me with only one normal, which I would have liked to have some variation.

Edited June 12, 201114 yr by RIPbudgies

the first one looks likes its going to be sky blue

Thank you for your comments, RIP.

 

Originally, this thread was going to just be about plum eyes in general, because not only did I wonder about this clutch, but I had a similar situation back with my Mystery clutch. So that's why I hadn't put on yet what the parents were.

 

But, yeah, I guess it would be a good idea to have that info!

 

 

 

The father: Sky blue (I strongly suspect violet factored) spangle, split to cinnamon, opaline, and greywing, all of which showed up in his three chicks from a previous pairing, last fall. If he's split to anything else, it hasn't come out yet.

 

The mother: Violet cinnamon wing recessive pied.

 

 

 

This is their second round. The first round produced the following:

 

Sky blue spangle female (This is the one from my "fluffed up chick" thread.)

 

Sky blue normal male

 

Sky blue cinnamon male

 

Violet cinnamon spangle female

 

Another sky blue cinnamon male

 

 

 

GB, what part are you looking at to see the sky blue on the chick above? I'm still too new at this to be able to tell so early.

 

 

Here's a not great photo of the parents:

 

 

 

(You'll have to excuse the black all over Alaina's face, this was taken at a time when she was digging into her charcoal a lot.)

Edited June 12, 201114 yr by Finnie

I was able to scare up an old photo of Alaina, from when I first got her. As a baby, but at least she's not covered in charcoal!

 

 

 

I got some newer photos of the chicks today. The oldest one doesn't seem so cinnamon anymore. Their down shades seem in between. Some lighter and some darker, but not really grey or white. And in real life, their ceres all look real pale to me, so maybe all girls, but in these photos there seems to be some hope for males.

 

 

 

 

 

 

in last picture oldest two look male

and in answer to your question where was i looking

at the butt

where the tail feathers are now clearly becoming id say sky violet or cobalt but the dad is but only a sky blue the violet comes from mum being visual violet nothing to do with dad hes a plain sky believe me

if you look at his cheek patches its a give away

in last picture oldest two look male

and in answer to your question where was i looking

at the butt

where the tail feathers are now clearly becoming id say sky violet or cobalt but the dad is but only a sky blue the violet comes from mum being visual violet nothing to do with dad hes a plain sky believe me

if you look at his cheek patches its a give away

 

 

Thank you.

 

I got some new "butt" pictures today. I think chick number one is looking like regular black spangle markings.

 

That would be SO awesome if the first two were males, because I have two female chicks from another clutch that I need two spangle males for their future partners!

 

So to tell that the dad is not violet factored, he would have needed darker, more purple cheek patches than he does? Thanks. I'll check that on some of my other birds, too, that I have wondered about.

 

Butt pictures:

 

 

 

 

 

And here is the fourth chick, turning out to be another spangle! (The third chick is normal, and that just leaves the 5th chick to wait and see on. )

 

Some newer pictures of the babies:

 

 

Chick 1 (had black eyes):

 

Chick 2 (had plum eyes):

 

 

 

Chick 3 (plum eyes) :

 

 

 

 

Chick 4 (had black eyes) :

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chick 5 (had plum eyes) :

 

 

I know I'm probably the only person who's obsessed with my own birds, but here are more photos!

 

I like how the oldest one always seems to be looking up at the camera

 

 

 

 

 

 

And here are some of the youngest. I'm really hoping she is an opaline, but until she starts to get some more color, I can't tell. I'm not good enough at that yet. Do any of you experts see signs of opaline? (She does have white down, but she was also a plum eyed chick, and I've seen my cinnamons have white down, too.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That last photo is a little abstract, but it's her mantle. Her head is to the lower right.

 

And sorry about the lighting. I went near a window, but it was overcast today.