I find it so exciting to follow these kids growing up, I thought some of you might too The case is about a skyblue pied cock I've been asking questions about for ages and final conclusion now is that he is possibly a dutch pied split recessive pied. He's bred once before, with a dominant pied hen, that was at time I had no idea of his piedness, I thought he might be a combination pied of dominant and recessive, so I accidentally mixed those two mutations and the outcome is most likely something in between, though the chick ended up looking a lot like his father.

 

Anyway, this time the cock has been paired with a grey green opaline, split recessive pied hen. Only mistake here is that the hen is opaline and dutch pied can have "frosting" which can be accidentally mixed with opaline, but I hope my cock won't be giving this frosting to any of his chicks. Other thing with opaline is that the chicks have white down and also the dutch pieds have white down, so that won't be telling me much when the chicks are at this age. The cock I think, is split opaline also, hard to tell from that one offspring only.

 

 

Here's the cock:

 

 

So if the cock is indeed a dutch pied split recessive the outcome could be following:

 

12,5% Dutch pied and Recessive pied combination i.e. Dark eyed clear

25% Dutch pied split Recessive pied

12,5 Dutch pied

12,5% Recessive pied

25% Normal split Recessive pied

12,5% Normal

 

Otherwise, well, the outcome could be anything. This far one of the chicks is indeed a pied, markings situated a lot like his father has. Second one seems to be having normal pigmentation and the youngest too are too young to be told anything about (6 and 4 days old)

 

 

 

Edited March 7, 201114 yr by falki

The male in the picture is a recessive pied visually

 

he may have something else with him making the blue go in more places then it naturally would on a Recessive pied but then again Each pied is different and not all of them follow the general rules of what they should look like

 

but a clear flight pied in the males they get the blue cere's Recessive pied do not - so that alone and the markings on the wings shows yours is Visually a Recessive pied not split to recessive pied

 

I have a female who is both Dominant Pied and Recessive pied and she's practically and all white bird - She has blue on her rump, and some Barring and very small amounts of wing markings but 95% of her body is pure white I thought she was a DF Dominant pied(which she may still be a DF but she's also visually Recessive and its just easier on me to call her a Dominant Recessive pied lol) but I realized she was recessive when I put her with a male Recessive and was getting both Dominant and Recessive pied chicks and some were both visually Then when I looked closer she had no iris rings she was a baby from my pairs I kept back for future breeding so I knew her parents and neither were Recessive pied - but I found out they're split to it

 

this is what MOST (not all but most) Dominant Recessive pieds look like - granted mine is a female and not a male but that doesn't change the body color any

 

This is Mine I named her Topaz

 

here's my Recessive pied Male(the one she was with)

 

and a Recessive pied Female just to show how 2 recessive pieds can look totally different

Same as above just a belly shot

Edited March 7, 201114 yr by K&M Breeding

Lovely recessive pieds you got there K&M

 

The only thing with this pied cock is that he has iris rings, maybe the picture was bad, here's another one:

 

 

The fact that he has pink cere might be because he's split recessive, this I've only been told, or then it's just some treat this cock has, which he ought not to. Anyway, recessive pieds do not have iris rings never, however pieds can occasionally have pigment abnormalities, such as this one having pink cere.

 

But as I said, these are all only guesses, he's possibly a dutch pied, because he's not a typical example of any pied mutation and dutch pieds are known to have great variation within the mutation. All I'm sure of, is that he's pied, and that's what makes this pairing so interesting too

Edited March 7, 201114 yr by falki

well now that is odd, I've never seen a budgie that looks identical to a Recessive pied but had Iris rings

I've had 100% normal no visual Pied what so ever budgies have NO iris rings lol

 

Could it be like your thinking and if he's 2 pied visually the dutch( I'm presuming this what most of us Americans call Clear flight pied?) and Recessive pied and that's giving him traits of both pieds? the body and cere of a Recessive pied but the eye rings of the other?

 

The pair I posted above the Topaz and then the 1st Recessive pied, their babies were both Visually Dominant and Recessive pied, I had 2 long enough for their ceres to start changing - and from the time i Found out they were both visually It got me wondering how the ceres would work out Would they both have a normal Dominant pied male Cere(blue) or would they get the Recessive pied cere(staying pink) or what.. Turned out 1 got the dominant pied cere(blue) one got the Recessive pied Cere(pink) I don't know what the eyes will do I didn't have them long enough to find out

 

I've also read that its not all that uncommon (doesn't happen a whole lot but it does happen) where the pied bird(or it may of been a non pied I can't recall off the top of my head at this moment) had an Iris ring in one eye but not the other, and it was defiantly old enough it should of had it in both.

 

but i Think that the outcome for that was leaning towards it being recessive pied or Split to it

 

I was also told my normal who had no iris rings (and was around 3 years old) was most likely split to recessive pied, I didn't have any male recessive pieds at the time and didn't think of keeping any of her babies back to find out So not sure if that would of been true in her case or not.

 

Lovely recessive pieds you got there K&M

 

The only thing with this pied cock is that he has iris rings, maybe the picture was bad, here's another one:

 

 

The fact that he has pink cere might be because he's split recessive, this I've only been told, or then it's just some treat this cock has, which he ought not to. Anyway, recessive pieds do not have iris rings never, however pieds can occasionally have pigment abnormalities, such as this one having pink cere.

 

But as I said, these are all only guesses, he's possibly a dutch pied, because he's not a typical example of any pied mutation and dutch pieds are known to have great variation within the mutation. All I'm sure of, is that he's pied, and that's what makes this pairing so interesting too

I think your bird is a recessive pied. I have a dominant pied who has NO IRIS RINGS and was judged best dominant pied in a show despite the no iris rings. Someone suggested my dominant pied was bred from split recessive parents but searching its parents history it turned out to be not so.

http://forums.budgiebreeders.asn.au/index.php?showtopic=27593&st=20

The male in the picture is a recessive pied visually

 

he may have something else with him making the blue go in more places then it naturally would on a Recessive pied but then again Each pied is different and not all of them follow the general rules of what they should look like

 

but a clear flight pied in the males they get the blue cere's Recessive pied do not - so that alone and the markings on the wings shows yours is Visually a Recessive pied not split to recessive pied

 

I have a female who is both Dominant Pied and Recessive pied and she's practically and all white bird - She has blue on her rump, and some Barring and very small amounts of wing markings but 95% of her body is pure white I thought she was a DF Dominant pied(which she may still be a DF but she's also visually Recessive and its just easier on me to call her a Dominant Recessive pied lol) but I realized she was recessive when I put her with a male Recessive and was getting both Dominant and Recessive pied chicks and some were both visually Then when I looked closer she had no iris rings she was a baby from my pairs I kept back for future breeding so I knew her parents and neither were Recessive pied - but I found out they're split to it

 

this is what MOST (not all but most) Dominant Recessive pieds look like - granted mine is a female and not a male but that doesn't change the body color any

 

This is Mine I named her Topaz

 

here's my Recessive pied Male(the one she was with)

 

and a Recessive pied Female just to show how 2 recessive pieds can look totally different

Same as above just a belly shot

IM SORRY BUT THIS HEN IS A COCK

 

 

and a Recessive pied Female just to show how 2 recessive pieds can look totally different

Same as above just a belly shot

IM SORRY BUT THIS HEN IS A COCK

I agree with GB. Its a cock.

Ya that's up for debate still when I bought it the cere looked dark tan, got it home still wasn't pink but wasn't as dark of a tan as what it looked like when I bought it (those pics have the flash on By The Way) when i look at it in person the cere is a tan color not the normal pink for a male recessive pied. I don't know how old it is though so that's not helping my debate any .. But I'm crossing my fingers it is a female as I need females not males but if it turns out to be male that just means I'm back to the drawing board and have to find a female - which I still need a couple more any way LOL but in person the cere is maybe 1 shade lighter than The 1st picture I posted of my Female Dominant Recessive pied

 

The male in the picture is a recessive pied visually

 

he may have something else with him making the blue go in more places then it naturally would on a Recessive pied but then again Each pied is different and not all of them follow the general rules of what they should look like

 

but a clear flight pied in the males they get the blue cere's Recessive pied do not - so that alone and the markings on the wings shows yours is Visually a Recessive pied not split to recessive pied

 

I have a female who is both Dominant Pied and Recessive pied and she's practically and all white bird - She has blue on her rump, and some Barring and very small amounts of wing markings but 95% of her body is pure white I thought she was a DF Dominant pied(which she may still be a DF but she's also visually Recessive and its just easier on me to call her a Dominant Recessive pied lol) but I realized she was recessive when I put her with a male Recessive and was getting both Dominant and Recessive pied chicks and some were both visually Then when I looked closer she had no iris rings she was a baby from my pairs I kept back for future breeding so I knew her parents and neither were Recessive pied - but I found out they're split to it

 

this is what MOST (not all but most) Dominant Recessive pieds look like - granted mine is a female and not a male but that doesn't change the body color any

 

This is Mine I named her Topaz

 

here's my Recessive pied Male(the one she was with)

 

and a Recessive pied Female just to show how 2 recessive pieds can look totally different

Same as above just a belly shot

IM SORRY BUT THIS HEN IS A COCK

Edited March 8, 201114 yr by K&M Breeding

its a male and if its got brown cere its a hormonal one

sorry but its not female i breed pieds for years

 

oh and your dom pied hen

she can not be visually rececive

shes df dom pied / rec maybe but not visually

 

dont worry not picking as i too had a cock bird i swear was visually rec pied but dom pied bird

im wrong hes df dom df dom pied are identical to rec pieds exept they have either one iris ring or two

This bird was hashed out on another forum to the conclusion it was most likely a Dutch Pied with a small amount of frosting evident.

 

Recessive Pieds are what is classed as an anti-dimorphic pied mutation which basically mean that the areas that show the sexual features are altered, i.e. the cere.

 

If a non anti-dimorphic bird is in combination with a anti-dimorphic one the latter will dominate in regards sexual features.

 

As I have said many times, with dominant pieds the iris rings can be 'pied out' like any other part of the bird including the cere, feet and even beak on rare occasions.

 

Kas your dom pied should have either been reclassed or disqualified as it did not meet the requirement for the class.

 

 

Kas your dom pied should have either been reclassed or disqualified as it did not meet the requirement for the class.

 

Yeah I agree. BUT by the time it was pointed out judging was done and dusted and it was on the top bench and I had the certificate in hand

k and m ,,,yours has no iris on this side so must have one on other if not its possably a rec pied and thats it

what was the cock you had her too to get pieds in dom and rec

Edited March 8, 201114 yr by GenericBlue

k and m ,,,yours has no iris on this side so must have one on other if not its possably a rec pied and thats it

what was the cock you had her too to get pieds in dom and rec

 

nope she has no iris rings in either eye

 

when she was born I thought she was DF Dominant Pied but as she grew up and no Iris rings ever appeared - I brought it up again on another forum and I was told she was both Dominant and Recessive pied

and I am pretty sure it was Nev that told me that.

the male was the 1st recessive pied I posted That was her only mate so far

Thank you for all your replies and thank you RIP for saving me from explaining it all over again.. I'm really not near that accurate what comes to genetics. I did wish for this debate on the other thread about him and his mutation on the genetics and mutations area and only to concentrate on the chicks and outcome here... but I guess it won't matter letting it come out here too, what a complicated odd bird he actually is!

 

As to what K & M wondered about him being a clearflight and a recessive both, visually, well, that would mean him being a dark eyed clear and that doesn't work out either, does it But, I'll be posting pics of the chicks later on, there are after all 4 chicks to reveal more about him and his mutation.

Now I'm facing some trouble, as the youngest of them isn't getting any food. I noticed it already yesterday, but was hesitating to act, I was hoping maybe the hen would start feeding it again eventually. Well today the situation was worse so I took 3 of them eldest out in another box and left the youngest one alone. It's maybe the size of a 2-3 days old and is now 5 days so she's been starving for a while... The problem is due for the age difference as the 2 first ones were hatched 23rd and 25th, 27th was empty and the third one hatched a little earlier (at night) on the 1st of March and now the smallest one on the 3rd in the evening. So the bigger ones naturally get more to eat...

 

Well. Now I can actually hear some very nice sounds of feeding from the nest, so it seems the smallest is finally getting some serious feeding too

 

EDIT: I just checked and yes, crop full of soft food I tipped all the rest back in too.

 

I was wondering, if I have to do this more often, what kind of time can you keep the others away from the nest??

your hen needs more food

each chick needs a cup of seed a day thats a cup of seed per chick

my jar feeders empty daily when chicks are hatched and around week on wards

i also supliment

and some hens still have dificultys keeping crop food up all day

so

ask yourself this

 

are your supplying at least a cup of seed per chick

are you supplying soft protein eg the boiled egg n weetbix with grated egg or even a bit of whole grain bread if no time for that and fresh veg or seedling grasses daliy

if the answer to one of them is no then id change that :}

Thanks for the reply, I do have the feeding part in order they get plenty of seed in several containers, and they never get empty before I put new. They also get egg and bread crumb mixed with water as well as different kinds of vegetable and fruit. Naturally blocks of iodine and calcium are available too.. not sure how they're to be written in english

 

All the other chicks were very well fed with fullest crops, except for the smallest one. But as I said, after a little while getting to be by itself with the hen she fed also her properly. So I'm happy now... Hope I won't have to interfere again.

It seems that the second and third chick have normal wing markings, fourth one seems to have a very bright orange beak, so I'm hoping for another pied there, even though I cannot see any pigment yet. All of the three eldest have white down, but alas, the hen is opaline and the cock might be carrying it too, so there's nothing that this will tell us, only that those chicks are opalines or dutch pieds. Or both.

 

I'll post pics again when I take some.

 

So the mutatios could be following:

 

1. Grey pied

2. Blue normal

3. Normal

4. Pied

your hen needs more food

each chick needs a cup of seed a day thats a cup of seed per chick

my jar feeders empty daily when chicks are hatched and around week on wards

i also supliment

and some hens still have dificultys keeping crop food up all day

so

ask yourself this

 

are your supplying at least a cup of seed per chick

are you supplying soft protein eg the boiled egg n weetbix with grated egg or even a bit of whole grain bread if no time for that and fresh veg or seedling grasses daliy

if the answer to one of them is no then id change that :}

 

 

I'm wondering how the measuring system works in your area?

because here in the U.S. 1 Measuring cup of food per bird would be way too much Food breeding or not There would be way too much waste

The scooper I use to feed my birds is a 1/4 cup I feed my birds in 5 oz coop cups If I use 2 of the 1/4 cup measuring cups Their bowl is over flowing and When they have babies thats all I need to do is fill that 5 oz cup up once a day (2 of my scooper) and they have enough food for both parents and at least 5 babies(that's the most I've had at once time)

 

But I know different areas have different measuring systems

One cup per chick sounds big for me too (though in europe we use desilitres), if you use the same cups as in u.s. I don't actually measure the food the birds get, in any situation. I fill the containers everyday and the breeding pair has two big bowls to eat from and as I say, they're not empty when I fill them. I usually just blow away the shells and use the remaining food again, if theirs a lot. And when breeding in the first place, I use a lot of fresh and soft food, like soaked oat, quinoa, egg, bread crumb, rice etc. mixed with carrot, cucumber, apple... So naturally they eat less seed than on a normal diet. Millet is another I use for the breeding pair quite often as they do not tend to get fat on it

 

But I think feeding is always a good subject when it comes to breeding, it is the most important thing to make the whole thing work.

 

Kids seem to be growing nicely now, all of them getting food on their own and the papi has started feeding too No new pics as they still look a lot the same and my camera is old and tricky to get good pics on moving little things!

Edited March 11, 201114 yr by falki

hey

well i cant explain a cup to you both sorry as im not good with maths or meshure (or clearly spelling to be honest)

but i just use mason jar feeders

3 feeders per cabinet with two with budgie /finch and one with hulled otes and small parrot mix

they have a small d cup of red pannicum seeds also

the two jar feeds with the budgie/ finch are 700ml woolworth coffee brand jars

and they are replaced halfway through the second day ..so a day and a half and they are emptyed

the small parrot lasts two days and is a standard masson jar feeding jar comes with the lids and the red panicum seed gets eatten dayly

this is average of 4 to 5 chicks per clutch

 

i hope that helps you gauge the amount nececery for healthy stuffed full chicks

thats not saying the soft food and seed grasses bread that they also get silver beet /spinach extra

Thank you GenericBlue

 

So here's a fresh photo, I thought some of you might be able to say something more of the eldest one being an opaline or not. The colour of the chick is most likely grey, it is hard to distinguish even from the tail side, but as far as I can see, it seems not to be an opaline, what do you think? Still it has white down, so this one then, if not an opaline, would be a dutch pied and not recessive

 

 

 

This link will take you to a bigger picture.

 

The second chick is normal in appearance, sky blue, it seemed, and also carrying white down. So we'll see about it later, it's yet hard to tell if it's an opaline or not, but it should be easier to tell earlier, than from a grey opaline.

 

Third one has been developing pigment quite faintly I even thought it had a pied spot on his head, but there's pigmented feathers coming out too - very little - but some. Fourth one is small and pink, it was always the darkest in colour of them all, no pigment yet, it's now 8 days old.

 

And here's the proud hen, you hadn't gotten a picture of her yet (and as for the cere, she doesn't get it properly brown):

 

Edited March 11, 201114 yr by falki

No DEC's in this clutch then, too bad! The last one turns out to be a pied too, we'll see what kind, markings are scarce, the same type as the first chick has. Possibly due to that one day lack of proper feeding also pigment must have arrived a little late, I was actually already hoping for this one to be a DEC - that would have once and for all made it sure that the cock is a dutch pied - but, alas! Well, I'm sure the chicks will be pretty anyhow Now we'll just wait for them to grow and get some more feathers, or feathers to begin with in the first place.

A picture update! They all seem to be blue series, first one is a grey pied as I stated before. Second one is blue opaline but I think the colour is a little diluted, so maybe cinnamon. I wasn't sure about their eyes when just small babies, so I can't say. Third one is possibly also opaline, but the down I think is not as pure white, so not sure - she might be a cinnamon too. Fourth one is a pied developing white down, he had pure black eyes, so I don't think this one will end up being a cinnamonwing. In case someone wants to see bigger pics, I can link some.

 

From left number one, three and two

 

 

Number two

 

 

Number three, cinnamon??

 

number three again

 

 

and finally number four

aww what cute babies

 

number 3 does look like it's going to be cinnamon it does look like the pins sticking out are brown in color