okay so I'm checking out the different programs you can use to keep track of our birds, well okay I was checking out Birdrec and The Budgerigar Program, and that got me thinking about breeding expectations and how much we really know...

 

So I've got two family tree's, I've kept them to 2 generations for simplicity but I think you'll get the idea:

 

Family 1

 

 

Family 2

 

 

My question is: Is Family 1 more likely to produce Blue babies than Family 2? And if so by what percent.

Both situations you propose have a 50% chance of producing a blue chick. No difference

i agree with dave

 

what is the point of this?

So the grand parents play no role in percentages? You are always hearing about birds throwing out surprises because the parents were masking/split for something, so I'm wondering how much the grandparents play a part. I get that if Max is split for blue and Yoko is blue then you have a 50% chance of blue chicks. I'm just wondering if by adding in any extra factors you can change that percentage. Have studies been done to see if Grand parents/great grand parents impact on the percentages at all?

 

Its my hypothesis that they do impact on the percentages, even if it is a small impact. I think that if I bred 100 chicks from Family 1 and bred 100 chicks from Family 2, Family 1 would have more blue chicks than family 2...

Edited October 31, 201014 yr by JimmyBanks

I think it sounds nice in theory, but in practice its impossible given a bird can only ever get one copy of each gene from one parent, and thus only ever pass on one of its 2 genes in a pair. Having green split blue x green split blue to produce a blue bird wont make that blue ever throw greens. I was talking to a friend the other day, a champion breeder and judge - been doing it for night on 40 years. He had a grey split opaline cock with an albino hen and I asked if he was trying to get normal daughters or split cocks. Neither he said, he wanted albinos. He told me he believes some hens are dominant and can pass on their mutation regardless of what the cock is sometimes. He added to that the thought that every bird can carry/create albinos.

 

Didnt have the heart to correct him.

Didnt have the heart to correct him.

 

But you did me... Not sure if thats a compliment or an insult, I'll choose the former

I think it sounds nice in theory, but in practice its impossible given a bird can only ever get one copy of each gene from one parent, and thus only ever pass on one of its 2 genes in a pair. Having green split blue x green split blue to produce a blue bird wont make that blue ever throw greens. I was talking to a friend the other day, a champion breeder and judge - been doing it for night on 40 years. He had a grey split opaline cock with an albino hen and I asked if he was trying to get normal daughters or split cocks. Neither he said, he wanted albinos. He told me he believes some hens are dominant and can pass on their mutation regardless of what the cock is sometimes. He added to that the thought that every bird can carry/create albinos.

 

Didnt have the heart to correct him.

 

 

You know, seeing as all of our mutations came about as a random change in the DNA, changing the normal to something different, I suppose there is always the tiniest possibility that that same "error" could pop up again, and this guy could get a new mutation of albino. Boy, wouldn't that firmly cement his incorrect theory!

Didnt have the heart to correct him.

 

But you did me... Not sure if thats a compliment or an insult, I'll choose the former

 

Definitely a compliment JB I think the best breeders are those who can state their opinions freely, but also be open to correction. You could very well find evidence to support your claim, so even after saying what I did, I could always be proven wrong at a later date. Hopefully knowledge of everything budgerigar is progressing everywhere, so while we may have once thought the budgie world was flat, perhaps tomorrow we will be shown it is round...

Yeah, I've just got to find a hundred pairs or so that I know the parentage of over say 3 generations, some blue, some green/blue, some blue from a green/ blue x green/blue pairing, then breed a hundred babies out of each pairing and record that. Then we will know...

 

So to make sure that I am getting the facts right, for the first blue to be bred someone needed to pair a green/blue and a green/blue, right? but seeings that there had never been a blue before and you only pass down 1 gene from each parent, wouldn't the probability of a blue bird ever being born be extremely close to 0???

Edited November 1, 201014 yr by JimmyBanks

The way most new recessive mutations are discovered is through colony breeding or controlled line/inbreeding to double up on the hidden gene. This is likely the case for the blues if i recall. Any new recessive is usually paired back to the opposite sex parent to try and create more. There could be tens or hundreds of new recessive mutations floating around out there in a single factor form, 99.9% of which will never be doubled up on. I also feel that since historically, knowledgeable breeders have given up on, abandoned or failed to secure new mutations in the past (eg recessive grey, non-sex linked ino etc) i feel certain that there have been a few backyard breeders or even society breeders who have bred but not recognised a new mutation.

 

The blackface birds were found at a market sale werent they? The more famous of the coalface budgies (the greygreen opaline one) was almost sold a few times as the owners thought it was a mucky / heavily flecked opaline and didnt want it at first. So many mutations slip through the cracks...

Edited November 1, 201014 yr by Dean_NZ

Definitely a compliment JB I think the best breeders are those who can state their opinions freely, but also be open to correction. You could very well find evidence to support your claim, so even after saying what I did, I could always be proven wrong at a later date. Hopefully knowledge of everything budgerigar is progressing everywhere, so while we may have once thought the budgie world was flat, perhaps tomorrow we will be shown it is round...

 

 

very well spoken dean, i agree!

Edited November 1, 201014 yr by alpaca-boy

I think it sounds nice in theory, but in practice its impossible given a bird can only ever get one copy of each gene from one parent, and thus only ever pass on one of its 2 genes in a pair. Having green split blue x green split blue to produce a blue bird wont make that blue ever throw greens. I was talking to a friend the other day, a champion breeder and judge - been doing it for night on 40 years. He had a grey split opaline cock with an albino hen and I asked if he was trying to get normal daughters or split cocks. Neither he said, he wanted albinos. He told me he believes some hens are dominant and can pass on their mutation regardless of what the cock is sometimes. He added to that the thought that every bird can carry/create albinos.

 

Didnt have the heart to correct him.

 

 

You know, seeing as all of our mutations came about as a random change in the DNA, changing the normal to something different, I suppose there is always the tiniest possibility that that same "error" could pop up again, and this guy could get a new mutation of albino. Boy, wouldn't that firmly cement his incorrect theory!

 

Definitely Finnie! I was dicussing resistance development with a prominent entomologist here is Australia and he said that 1 in every 10,000 mytoses (whatever the plural of mytosis is anyway) produces a mutation. Given this, there is always the chance of something mutating the issue is that it's not always something that is visually obvious. Also many mutants are not as thrifty as others and many die out before we even know that they might be a new variety. But yes there is ALWAYS a chance of something different popping out of the woodwork, just it's going to be a very slim chance.

 

AND you can get different genes that do the same thing so technically Jimmy you can get a visually blue bird one of 2 ways that is currently known about. Either a bird with 2 recessive blue genes or a bird with 2 partially dominant yf m1 genes. I have a family that seems to have green cocks I pair a blue cock and a green hen and then green hens when I pair green cock and blue hen - it's just something I've noticed with this family but I haven't quantified it, maybe there is some sex linkage with colour inheritance in this family - who knows I guess a lot of things are possible but need time and patience AND careful recording to prove or disprove it.

Edited November 1, 201014 yr by nubbly5

But if we were going to see it, wouldn't the only way to see it be through Line Breeding? It would virtually be impossible to keep a new mutation without some form of line breeding, wouldn't it?

Not if it's a dominant mutation.

 

It depends more on how the mutation is inherited. The reason people breed back to parents is that they are trying to perpetuate a recessive trait or if they don't know the inheritance I suppose that's a sensible place to start.

Edited November 2, 201014 yr by nubbly5