Hi everyone,We have been breeding Budgies for a while, We have a flock of about 60 Budgies and have been following this site for about 18 months now, we have never posted before, but have learned soooooo much during that time

 

Anyway I figure it's about time I said hi and asked for some help with identifying the mutation of this chick.

 

It came from a nest of only two chicks, with it's sibling being a Dark Green Dom Pied.

 

Here's Dad. Tex, our gorgeous TCB Cock

and Mum Miranda, a Dk Green Cinnamon Dom Pied

 

(i know this isn't an ideal match, but we breed for happy healthy pets, not show. We plan to put Tex with a Lutino Hen, once she's old enough but for now these two are in love )

 

Here's the Chick, who I think to be a hen (she's 4 and a half weeks old)

 

She's a lovely little chick and very different to her nest mate (a cock) and anything we have bred before.

 

She doesn't appear to be cinnamon (pale markings, but dark in colour), No body colour, except for the Limey TCB colour on Rump, white cheek patches, Dark Eyes.We were hoping for a TCB Chick, but know she's something different to this .

 

I'd really appreciate you thoughts (and corrections) from the experts on what she is (including if I'm wrong on sex)

 

We don't know the history of Mum and Dad. they are currently on 3 eggs and still laying in their second round, so keen to know what will get this time around.

 

Thanks All!!!!! :hi: looking forward to your comments..

 

Forgot to say. Photo's taken without a Flash...

Edited September 3, 201014 yr by Snoopy

I am no expert either, but i would say hen and she looks texas clearbody spangle pied I think.

But she doesn't really show clear body except for the clean body. She may not even be pied. But the she could be DF pied.

Someone will coerrect I hope..... Maybe she is df pied. could some one help me, she could even be grey wing.

Sorry I was no Help.

BUT I forgot to say hello and welcome to the forum.

Oh and what a pretty little bird, really gorgeous

Edited September 3, 201014 yr by splat

Wow, I think that's a beautiful chick!

 

I don't know anything about Texas Clearbody, but I was thinking it must be one, only in recessive pied.

 

Obviously, both of the parents must be carrying the recessive pied gene.

 

I actually think the chick looks like a boy in spite of the lightness around its nostrils. What you need to look for in order to tell if it's female is whether there is an overall white color to the cere.

 

If TCB is a sex-linked gene, then the chick would have to be a girl. But I don't know about TCB, so someone else will have to say about that. Well, I feel pretty stupid! I just did a search for TCB, and found my own post referencing a chart on Wikipedia! Apparently I knew this, and then forgot I knew it. It is sex-linked, so forget everything I said about the chick being a boy!

 

Welcome to the forum. You and I have been around here the same amount of time, based on lurking first before joining! :hi:

 

 

Reason for edit:

Oops! I just saw what Splat wrote while I was typing! I didn't even notice the spangle part!

 

Reason for second edit: fixing my own stupidity!

Edited September 3, 201014 yr by Finnie

Thanks Splat and Finnie.

 

I had considered Rec Pied TCB, but figured I was just taking a wild guess . Pleased to hear that you both have a similar thought. I just know the chick is a real sweety.

 

Keen to hear what others have to say...

Not spangle! One of the parent would need to be spangle and they are definitely not.

 

TBC and dom pied would be my guess based on the parents. The mum is a pretty heavily marked dom pied so the lack of markings wouldn't be a surprise on this chick. Grizzled grey wings is a giveaway for TBC. But I also think opaline due to the head markings that I CAN see (not many mind you), the diluted body colour and the wing markings but I'd have to see that one solid coloured tail to give you a definite on that one. Maybe greywing too just looking at the throat spots but hard to tell. Seems a bit too diluted for just oplaine so maybe greywing is a real possibility.

 

Possibility of red pied I suppose as grizzled wings is also a rec pied indicator but I'm not convinced. okay just had a bit of a comparo and getting more into the rec pied idea! So revising to TBC opaline rec pied (maybe greywing in there too.....).

Edited September 3, 201014 yr by nubbly5

Not spangle! One of the parent would need to be spangle and they are definitely not.

 

TBC and dom pied would be my guess based on the parents. The mum is a pretty heavily marked dom pied so the lack of markings wouldn't be a surprise on this chick. Grizzled grey wings is a giveaway for TBC. But I also think opaline due to the head markings that I CAN see (not many mind you), the diluted body colour and the wing markings but I'd have to see that one solid coloured tail to give you a definite on that one. Maybe greywing too just looking at the throat spots but hard to tell. Seems a bit too diluted for just oplaine so maybe greywing is a real possibility.

 

Possibility of red pied I suppose as grizzled wings is also a rec pied indicator but I'm not convinced.

 

 

Nubbly, of course you are right about the spangle! I'm surprised Splat and I didn't notice about the parents! Also, if the cock is opaline, then the daughter is automatically opaline, too, isn't she? Good eye, spotting it visually with so little to go on!

 

Well, these parents are certainly a cocktail of mutations, aren't they? Tha'ts a lot of fun for you, Snoopy. I can't wait to see what the next batch of eggs brings.

Thanks Nubbly, I hadn't considered the possiblity of Greywing also... I have created a full on cocktail haven't I.

 

I agree Finnie, looking forward to the next batch, thats one thing I love about pet types. All the surprises....

No worries Snoopy nice to see you on the forum!

 

I think the surprise packages that pop out of different pairings is the exciting part of breeding budgies. To more clutches you breed from these parents the better the idea you will have on whats hidden underneath!

First thing to remember when trying to identify mutation combinations is to not get caught up in the depth of colour in baby birds. As I have said in many posts baby birds DO NOT have fully developed feathers the pigments will be paler and will often not be representative of the final colouration once the bird has moulted.

 

The father is an Opaline TCB in either Dk or Lt Green (can't see the colour that well) so he will produce all Opaline daughters and split sons. If he is a pure TCB ie not split for Ino or Lacewing he will produce all TCB daughters and split sons.

 

The mother is a Dominant Pied Cinnamon Dk Green and she CANNOT produce any Cinnamon young unless the cock is split. She can produce Dominant Pieds and they will of course be single factored. As Pied is variable in its application the resultant baby could be more or less pied than the parent.

 

The chick (hen) itself, given the parameters above is a TCB Dominant Pied Opaline and looks to be Dk Green. It is down on colour firstly because as I said it is baby feather. Opaline also reduces the depth of body colour as does TCB. So combine both TCB and Opaline together and you will reduce body colour.

 

If the cock has been bred from Ino and TCB show stock he will also be carrying a certain amount of residual genes for the decrease of body colour as this is what is strived for in the show standard. The genes will persist for a generation or two if not continually monitored.

 

Is there any Recessive Pied involved? I don't really think so. The only way to be certain is to pair each parent with a visual Recessive Pied. People who have difficulty in identifying muation combinations often see stuff that is not usually there. They are unfamiliar with how the mutations themselves work and are even more unfamiliar with how they interact when in combination.

 

Having bred a few combination TCB's myself I find this combo very nice indeed. You have some nice healthy looking birds there Snoopy. Welcome to the forum and I hope you enjoy your stay.

I didn't think it was spangle but seem the hen was heavily marked I thought maybe but at the same time couldn't see the spangle markings

Thanks for your comments. I'm really appreciating the feedback, as everytime I think I have mutations all worked out, I find out I still have so much to learn.

 

You guys are the best

well i didnt know all the stuff rip said but i did wonder how it was a rec pied when she was dom and he was clearbody

i was going to call dom pid not rec pied as not many clearbodys are breed from rec breeding so unless the family held the genetic from way back and it poped up which is not intilly imposable i say dom pied is its eyes red as if their not it cant be a clearbody

The hen looks recessive pied to me?

The eye's are Dark GB, if they we're red that would make it something different. Yes?? I'm right in saying TCB's have dark eyes aren't I, or am I really confused..

 

Also Squeak the Hen is definately Dom Pied, she has iris rings, although I did take a close look at her myself when putting her into our breeding records. But definately Dominant..

Is there any Recessive Pied involved? I don't really think so. The only way to be certain is to pair each parent with a visual Recessive Pied. People who have difficulty in identifying muation combinations often see stuff that is not usually there. They are unfamiliar with how the mutations themselves work and are even more unfamiliar with how they interact when in combination.

 

 

okay, I admit it, this is me to a "T".

 

I recently learned that I was way off the track as far as the pied genes are concerned, and when they are combined, I am totally at a loss. (Apparently, I am also at a loss when they aren't combined! )

 

I guess I just thought it LOOKED like a recessive pied, and since the parents weren't, I figured they must have been split for it. I guess I will go back to the drawing board to learn what a recessive pied looks like.

well i didnt know all the stuff rip said but i did wonder how it was a rec pied when she was dom and he was clearbody

i was going to call dom pid not rec pied as not many clearbodys are breed from rec breeding so unless the family held the genetic from way back and it poped up which is not intilly imposable i say dom pied is its eyes red as if their not it cant be a clearbody

 

 

GB, TCB do not have red eyes. They are exactly the same as in a Normal.

The markings seem to be a recessive pied. From what I have experienced of pied, recessive pied have the lower stomach/between the legs marking, where as dominants tend to have a stomach band. I have some clearbody pieds, pretty birds Are you sure the hen has iris rings?

Thanks for your input Squeak , Yes she definately has Iris rings. Also the other chick in the nest (a cock) is clearly dommie pied, so must come from her.

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry don't have a front shot of this one, but it is dark green and clearly banded yellow in the centre. Far more obvious Dom Pied than mum.

The markings seem to be a recessive pied. From what I have experienced of pied, recessive pied have the lower stomach/between the legs marking, where as dominants tend to have a stomach band. I have some clearbody pieds, pretty birds Are you sure the hen has iris rings?

 

SC why do you keep seeing Recessive Pied? Are you sure you understand the difference between the varying pieds? Given the statement above it would seem you have a long way to go to understand them. Pied visual appearance cannot be easily 'pigeon holed', even though it is a trait of human being to do so. The show standards 'pigeon hole' the various mutations. they have too in order to have a frame of reference in which to class birds.

 

Pieds have long since caused much confusion to most and no doubt will continue to do so.

Rip - I would say in this bird it is the TCB mixed with the pied gene causing issues in the bird looking recessive to most as it has removed the body markings on the bird that you would normally see.

Edited September 5, 201014 yr by *Nerwen*

The markings seem to be a recessive pied. From what I have experienced of pied, recessive pied have the lower stomach/between the legs marking, where as dominants tend to have a stomach band. I have some clearbody pieds, pretty birds Are you sure the hen has iris rings?

 

SC why do you keep seeing Recessive Pied? Are you sure you understand the difference between the varying pieds? Given the statement above it would seem you have a long way to go to understand them. Pied visual appearance cannot be easily 'pigeon holed', even though it is a trait of human being to do so. The show standards 'pigeon hole' the various mutations. they have too in order to have a frame of reference in which to class birds.

 

Pieds have long since caused much confusion to most and no doubt will continue to do so.

 

I have to agree. In reading what you wrote Squeak I was scratching my head trying to work out where you figured out that information because it isnt right :nest:

Edited September 5, 201014 yr by KAZ

Rip - I would say in this bird it is the TCB mixed with the pied gene causing issues in the bird looking recessive to most as it has removed the body markings on the bird that you would normally see.

 

TCB does not remove markings. It alters markings that exist on the bird. At first look it is obvious the bird is pied. Then due to lack of other 'visual markers' it becomes a guessing game as to what else is there. This is were experience with variety combinations comes into it. If the parents of the bird had not been put up I wonder how many on this forum, including myself, would have picked up the different mutations in this bird. As I have already said the pied was obvious and given the fact it is a baby one would have to wait till it is moults for the iris ring to develop, or not. The grizzling effect on the feathers can be the result of a couple of mutations but again unless you are familiar with them and their consequences in action with others one cannot begin to even have a clue. Sometimes some combos are just plan hard to see. Example being Cinnamon Fallows looking almost exactly like Lacewings. There is such a subtle difference that it can be missed almost entirely by anybody, myself and judges included. I have two such birds.

First thing to remember when trying to identify mutation combinations is to not get caught up in the depth of colour in baby birds. As I have said in many posts baby birds DO NOT have fully developed feathers the pigments will be paler and will often not be representative of the final colouration once the bird has moulted.

 

The father is an Opaline TCB in either Dk or Lt Green (can't see the colour that well) so he will produce all Opaline daughters and split sons. If he is a pure TCB ie not split for Ino or Lacewing he will produce all TCB daughters and split sons.

 

The mother is a Dominant Pied Cinnamon Dk Green and she CANNOT produce any Cinnamon young unless the cock is split. She can produce Dominant Pieds and they will of course be single factored. As Pied is variable in its application the resultant baby could be more or less pied than the parent.

 

The chick (hen) itself, given the parameters above is a TCB Dominant Pied Opaline and looks to be Dk Green. It is down on colour firstly because as I said it is baby feather. Opaline also reduces the depth of body colour as does TCB. So combine both TCB and Opaline together and you will reduce body colour.

 

If the cock has been bred from Ino and TCB show stock he will also be carrying a certain amount of residual genes for the decrease of body colour as this is what is strived for in the show standard. The genes will persist for a generation or two if not continually monitored.

 

Is there any Recessive Pied involved? I don't really think so. The only way to be certain is to pair each parent with a visual Recessive Pied. People who have difficulty in identifying muation combinations often see stuff that is not usually there. They are unfamiliar with how the mutations themselves work and are even more unfamiliar with how they interact when in combination.

 

Having bred a few combination TCB's myself I find this combo very nice indeed. You have some nice healthy looking birds there Snoopy. Welcome to the forum and I hope you enjoy your stay.

 

RIP the reason I said rec pied in the end is the excessive grizzling of the wing markings. I was initially thinking this is just TBC but usually TBC grizzled grey markings are towards the bottom on the wings not up at the shoulder like this hen has.

 

Still think it could be a heavily marked dom pied too but the grizzed markings just don't fit for me. As always there are a few different alternatives and it's always a bit of detective work, sometimes not getting the full answer until after the chick has moulted or sometimes after you've bred from the chick to confirm something.

 

Yarr! but you LIKE my cinnamon fallows right?

Edited September 5, 201014 yr by nubbly5

First thing to remember when trying to identify mutation combinations is to not get caught up in the depth of colour in baby birds. As I have said in many posts baby birds DO NOT have fully developed feathers the pigments will be paler and will often not be representative of the final colouration once the bird has moulted.

 

The father is an Opaline TCB in either Dk or Lt Green (can't see the colour that well) so he will produce all Opaline daughters and split sons. If he is a pure TCB ie not split for Ino or Lacewing he will produce all TCB daughters and split sons.

 

The mother is a Dominant Pied Cinnamon Dk Green and she CANNOT produce any Cinnamon young unless the cock is split. She can produce Dominant Pieds and they will of course be single factored. As Pied is variable in its application the resultant baby could be more or less pied than the parent.

 

The chick (hen) itself, given the parameters above is a TCB Dominant Pied Opaline and looks to be Dk Green. It is down on colour firstly because as I said it is baby feather. Opaline also reduces the depth of body colour as does TCB. So combine both TCB and Opaline together and you will reduce body colour.

 

If the cock has been bred from Ino and TCB show stock he will also be carrying a certain amount of residual genes for the decrease of body colour as this is what is strived for in the show standard. The genes will persist for a generation or two if not continually monitored.

 

Is there any Recessive Pied involved? I don't really think so. The only way to be certain is to pair each parent with a visual Recessive Pied. People who have difficulty in identifying muation combinations often see stuff that is not usually there. They are unfamiliar with how the mutations themselves work and are even more unfamiliar with how they interact when in combination.

 

Having bred a few combination TCB's myself I find this combo very nice indeed. You have some nice healthy looking birds there Snoopy. Welcome to the forum and I hope you enjoy your stay.

 

RIP the reason I said rec pied in the end is the excessive grizzling of the wing markings. I was initially thinking this is just TBC but usuallu TBC grizzled grey markings are towards the bottom on the wings not up at the shoulder like this hen has.

 

Still think it could be a heavily marked dom pied too but the grizzed markings just don't fit for me.

 

Yeah I can see were ya coming from. This is a baby bird though so again baby feather. Baby feather varies so much and maybe it is a gentic trait within some families. Without seeing the parents I too would more than likely would have said Recessive Pied as on a visual summation would be my frame of reference. Don't forget the Opaline has to make it's effect know too and this effect will depend on the quality of Opaline involved. The TCB component in baby feather does not show a full coloured feather like an adult. It actually appears quite grizzly.

 

I have included a picture of a baby TCB. Take note of the markings on the wings and it can seen that the markings are not as heavy in babies. Once this bird moults out it will get darker. This bird is also a Spangle.

 

http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo40/RI...earbodyGrey.jpg

 

This picture is of a fully grown TCB Spangle Opaline Grey. This is one I bred back in the 90's. This is when TCB were still being introduced and I was pairing with other mutations to see what of the TCB effect would remain that could still be indetified without to much trouble.

 

 

And I LURRRRRRVV your Cinnamon Fallows!! Even if though they are yellow. They have awesome feather on them.

Edited September 5, 201014 yr by KAZ
changed oversized picture into a link

I have included a picture of a baby TCB. Take note of the markings on the wings and it can seen that the markings are not as heavy in babies. Once this bird moults out it will get darker. This bird is also a Spangle.

 

http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo40/RI...earbodyGrey.jpg

 

wouldnt the spangle also influence the markings ?

Edited September 5, 201014 yr by KAZ