I am just starting up with budgies again after a few years without them, I have never been a big breeder, and mainly have Lorikeets and psephotus parrots, but I do love budgies. The enless combos with colours is very appealing to me. I am purchasing some birds in the next couple of weeks, and just wanted to know with the combos what colours I should get. I have a particular interest in the violet and dominant pieds, and want to breed violet dominant pieds. The following are pairings I am thinking of mating up.....

 

violet cock x cobalt blue dominant pied hen = ?

violet cock x grey cinnamon wing dominant pied hen = ?

 

I know the basics in mutations, and am learning more all the time, but for now I need a real mutations wizz to tell me if these pairings will produce violet dominant pied. Any help would be great. Cheers.

Tip for violets -

 

AVOID: Grey, green, greygreen, Ino (obviously) Cinnamon, opaline, dilute (grewying and clearwing are okay if you want to specialise in them otherwise avoid them too).

 

These mutations will all subtract from the brilliance of the violet mutation. Some may argue that you 'need' to cross your violets to greys or greens to 'keep up the colour' but this is codswallop plain and simple. Anyone who tells you bluexblue pairings will lose colour needs to learn more about colour genetics and the modes of inheritance. I love the contrast of yellowface on violets, but I think if you are going to specialise in dominant pied violets, then I would probably be inclined to stick with normal white face as the crisp white of the face, wing and body band in contrast with the purple is stunning.

 

I only recently saw some violet dom pieds and they are definately something I can see myself making a line/family of later once I have good violet numbers (so hard to get violets).

 

As far as violet pairings go, either parent can be pied, but my preferred matings are:

Violet (single or double factor) sky blue x violet (single or double factor) cobalt

 

Where possible I avoid cobaltXcobalt, and actually would prefer first to build up a good line/family of double factor violet skies before even introducing dark factor if possible. However the lure of the obvious 'visual' violet of single factor violet cobalts very tempting so you may want to do the sky x cobalt pairings where possible.

 

violet cock x cobalt blue dominant pied hen = ?

 

assuming the violet cock is single factor violet cobalt then:

 

6.25% Normal Sky blue

6.25% Dominant pied Sky blue

6.25% SF violet Sky blue

6.25% SF violet dominant pied Sky blue

 

12.5% Normal Cobalt

12.5% Dominant pied Cobalt

12.5% SF violet Cobalt (visual violet)

12.5% SF violet dominant pied Cobalt (THIS IS THE CHANCE OF GETTING THE CHICK YOU WANT - 12.5% or 1 in 8 chicks going by the odds)

 

6.25% Normal Mauve

6.25% Dominant Pied Mauve

6.25% SF violet Mauve

6.25% SF violet dominant pied Mauve

 

 

violet cock x grey cinnamon wing dominant pied hen = ?

 

Again it is difficult to assess the dark factor of the cock or the hen, but assuming the cock AND the hen have one dark factor then all cocks will be split for cinnamon (and should therefore be considered as of minimal benefit to future violet breeding if you want to avoid cinnamon in your violets) and the rest is as follows:

 

6.25% Normal Sky blue

6.25% Normal light Grey (zero dark factor)

6.25% SF violet Sky blue

6.25% SF violet light grey (zero dark factor)

 

12.5% Normal Cobalt

12.5% Normal Grey (single dark factor)

12.5% SF violet Cobalt (VISUAL VIOLET - 1 in 8 chicks from this pairing will be normal visual violets)

12.5% SF violet grey (single dark factor)

 

6.25% Normal Mauve

6.25% Dark grey (Double dark factor grey)

6.25% SF violet Mauve

6.25% SF violet dark grey (Double dark factor grey)

Edited August 31, 201014 yr by Dean_NZ

sorry for hyjacking this post , but Dean do you have any advice on clearbodies, colour breeding mainly. I am sure one breeder I met once said something about keeping the dark factor out of them. ?????

Tip for violets -

 

AVOID: Grey, green, greygreen, Ino (obviously) Cinnamon, opaline, dilute (grewying and clearwing are okay if you want to specialise in them otherwise avoid them too).

 

These mutations will all subtract from the brilliance of the violet mutation. Some may argue that you 'need' to cross your violets to greys or greens to 'keep up the colour' but this is codswallop plain and simple. Anyone who tells you bluexblue pairings will lose colour needs to learn more about colour genetics and the modes of inheritance. I love the contrast of yellowface on violets, but I think if you are going to specialise in dominant pied violets, then I would probably be inclined to stick with normal white face as the crisp white of the face, wing and body band in contrast with the purple is stunning.

 

I only recently saw some violet dom pieds and they are definately something I can see myself making a line/family of later once I have good violet numbers (so hard to get violets).

 

As far as violet pairings go, either parent can be pied, but my preferred matings are:

Violet (single or double factor) sky blue x violet (single or double factor) cobalt

 

Where possible I avoid cobaltXcobalt, and actually would prefer first to build up a good line/family of double factor violet skies before even introducing dark factor if possible. However the lure of the obvious 'visual' violet of single factor violet cobalts very tempting so you may want to do the sky x cobalt pairings where possible.

 

violet cock x cobalt blue dominant pied hen = ?

 

assuming the violet cock is single factor violet cobalt then:

 

6.25% Normal Sky blue

6.25% Dominant pied Sky blue

6.25% SF violet Sky blue

6.25% SF violet dominant pied Sky blue

 

12.5% Normal Cobalt

12.5% Dominant pied Cobalt

12.5% SF violet Cobalt (visual violet)

12.5% SF violet dominant pied Cobalt (THIS IS THE CHANCE OF GETTING THE CHICK YOU WANT - 12.5% or 1 in 8 chicks going by the odds)

 

6.25% Normal Mauve

6.25% Dominant Pied Mauve

6.25% SF violet Mauve

6.25% SF violet dominant pied Mauve

 

 

violet cock x grey cinnamon wing dominant pied hen = ?

 

Again it is difficult to assess the dark factor of the cock or the hen, but assuming the cock AND the hen have one dark factor then all cocks will be split for cinnamon (and should therefore be considered as of minimal benefit to future violet breeding if you want to avoid cinnamon in your violets) and the rest is as follows:

 

6.25% Normal Sky blue

6.25% Normal light Grey (zero dark factor)

6.25% SF violet Sky blue

6.25% SF violet light grey (zero dark factor)

 

12.5% Normal Cobalt

12.5% Normal Grey (single dark factor)

12.5% SF violet Cobalt (VISUAL VIOLET - 1 in 8 chicks from this pairing will be normal visual violets)

12.5% SF violet grey (single dark factor)

 

6.25% Normal Mauve

6.25% Dark grey (Double dark factor grey)

6.25% SF violet Mauve

6.25% SF violet dark grey (Double dark factor grey)

 

dean is the violet man i must admit

 

i tend to breed sf violet cobalt's to sky-blue

or sky-blue sf violet to cobalt blue

and mainly results in two visual sf cobalt violets or one at least in most nest its rare not to get one visual in this pairing

and most of the chicks become very useful to future violet breeding

i still believe the quickest way to breeding a visual violet bird is sf skyviolet to a cobalt blue cock bird

Thanks for the advice guys. I am still a little confused LOL, so does that mean a violet cannot be 'made' and that to produce a violet parent birds must carry the violet factor? So all sky blue and mauve violets are genetically as potent as a visual cobalt, just that cobalt intensifies the violet? And how do you get a DF violet? would that happen by mating 2 birds together with the violet factor, and are they visually different from a SF violet? Also with the second mating I thought that you would get Dom pieds as the hen is, but I could be wrong? Dean you really have excellent knowledge on genetics, it is fantastic! Hopefully I'll get it to. Thanks again.

Thanks for the advice guys. I am still a little confused LOL, so does that mean a violet cannot be 'made' and that to produce a violet parent birds must carry the violet factor? So all sky blue and mauve violets are genetically as potent as a visual cobalt, just that cobalt intensifies the violet? And how do you get a DF violet? would that happen by mating 2 birds together with the violet factor, and are they visually different from a SF violet? Also with the second mating I thought that you would get Dom pieds as the hen is, but I could be wrong? Dean you really have excellent knowledge on genetics, it is fantastic! Hopefully I'll get it to. Thanks again.

 

There remains a lot of confusion over violets, and many many people still have trouble identifying them. Some still believe that it is a dominant gene like grey (meaning single and double factor are visually identical or that there is no true 'double factor'). People also continue to believe that the violet factor is ATTACHED to either the dark factor or the light factor.

 

For example they think a violet cobalt will have the violet gene attached to the 'dark factor' gene. When this bird is paired to a normal sjy, they state it will only produce visual violets (single factor violet cobalts) and normal sky blues as the violet only goes where the dark factor goes.I disproved this notion in my first ever pairing of a violet cobalt hen to a sky cock - I got violet skys and cobalts! This only proved what I already knew from reading about the nature of the violet gene in other articles.

 

At any rate, the violet gene is separate (not attached to any other mutation or gene) and it is PARTIAL dominant - meaning the single factor of the gene can express itself visually and the double dose of the gene expresses itself more so. The violet factor isnt a colour adding factor like grey - it actually affects the structure of the feather and changes the refraction of light (it changes the types of light it absorbs/reflects, which affects the colour).

 

The single factor violet is most easily seen as 'purple' or a 'true violet' when paired with a single dark factor on a blue budgie. This is because cobalts are the closest colour on the colour spectrum of budgies (sky, cobalt, mauve, light green, dark green, olive, light grey, grey, dark grey, light grey green, grey green, dark greygreen, lutino, albino) to the colour purple. Essentially the gene alters the feather structure, shifts the spectrum of light reflected by the feathers and the 'cobalt' now reflects purple light. The only exception to this is the double factor violet sky - where the double dose of violet is powerful enough to alter the sky blue colour along the scale until it is close in colour to a single factor violet cobalt (but a double factor violet sky placed next to a single factor violet cobalt is actually a 'prettier' visual violet on account of the silkier nature of the sky feathers and the double dose of the violet factor). Double factor violet cobalts are without doubt the most stunning of the violets, owing to the depth and richness of the violet on top of the cobalt colouring.

 

The same single factor gene DOES affect ALL budgie colours, but it wont make them PURPLE. The gene is ALWAYS expressed, it cannot be hidden - it is simply not always recognised as 'violet' because it wont make other colours purple. The effect on sky blues is mentioned above. The mauve budgie is interesting, normal mauves look almost like grey budgies. Single factor violet mauves are a midnight purple, its very hard to describe... its like a purple rain cloud colour, there are shades of grey, purple and an almost black/ash colour. I have not yet seen a double factor violet mauve, but imagine it would be quite the colour.In green budgies the violet factor has the VISUAL effect of a dark factor - light greens appear as very nicely coloured dark greens. Dark greens look like very DARKLY coloured dark greens (I have a violet dark green, should really get a picture). I have not seen a violet olive as olives and mauves are not very commonly bred due to most peoples aversion to breeding dark factor to dark factor (plus the few people breeding violet as it is too confusing to bother with for many). Greys are possibly the worst colour to put violet into. I had a violet grey and it was very difficult to label it as such until it was placed next to normal greys, at which point the violet did become obvious. As a general rule I would NEVER pair greys to violets for anyone intending to breed violets. If you want to breed greys, you can put them to anything, but dont put grey INTO your violets if you are hoping for violets.

 

The main reason you want to avoid opaline, cinnamon, spangle etc when starting or continuing a violet line is the tails - often the easiest way to identify violet in greens and sky blues where the violet factor is questionable is to look at the tail. A dark green or cobalt 'looking' bird with a teal/aqua tail is obviously a light green violet or a sky blue violet as dark greens and cobalts have navy blue tails. Greys have black tails no matter how much violet you put in them so its impossible to use the tail to ascertain dark factor OR violet factor. Spangle tails get turned to white because of the colour reversal, cinnamon turns the tail brown and makes it difficult to judge base colour. Opaline also ruins the tail, causing a general fading of colour or a huge white mark up the majority of the tail spreading from the center out towards the edge of the feather. Dominant pied can also affect the tail, but I would only introduce pied after establishing a good family/line of double factor violets so the tail wouldnt be as necessary having already established true records of violet carriage throughout the family.

 

For this reason I would suggest:

 

Breed blue factor violets only (if possible - greens are fine, but create a lot of wasteage in nests if you are hoping for visual violets and in the best scenario of breeding with a violet green budgie split blue, 50% of the chicks will be green and therefore never visual violets so these pairings automatically half your chances of getting visual violets).

 

Avoid opaline, spangle, cinnamon, GREY and other mutations that affect the use of the tail unless you are confidant in your ability to visually identify violet being carried through different (non visual violet) colours.

 

So in answer to your questions:

 

All violet carriers are 'potent' and equally 'able' to pass the gene on. Their ability to create a visual violet depends entirely on their colour factor (blue, green, grey, ino etc) and their dark factor (the easiest visual violet to obtain of course being a single factor violet cobalt).

 

You get a double factor violet by pairing single factor to single factor initially. Single factor violet X single factor violet (regardless of other mutations) results in 50% single factor violet, 25% double factor violet and 25% NO violet (1/4 chicks no violet, 1/4 chicks double factor violet, 2/4 chicks single factor like the parents).

 

Also, I think i just forgot to factor in the dom pied in the second pairing hehehehe. I'll go back and edit it

 

I couldnt edit my post so here is the correction (notice how adding in a single extra mutation changes your chances of getting the combination you hope for... compare it to the original, each new mutation HALVES your original chances and DOUBLES the number of unique variations you can get in the offspring)

 

violet cock x grey cinnamon wing dominant pied hen = ?

 

Again it is difficult to assess the dark factor of the cock or the hen, but assuming the cock AND the hen have one dark factor then all cocks will be split for cinnamon (and should therefore be considered as of minimal benefit to future violet breeding if you want to avoid cinnamon in your violets) and the rest is as follows:

 

3.125% Normal Sky blue

3.125% Dominant pied sky blue

3.125% Normal light Grey (zero dark factor)

3.125% Dominant pied light Grey (zero dark factor)

3.125% SF violet Sky blue

3.125% Dominant pied SF violet Sky blue

3.125% SF violet light grey (zero dark factor)

3.125% Dominant pied SF violet light grey (zero dark factor)

 

6.25% Normal Cobalt

6.25% Dominant pied cobalt

6.25% Normal Grey (single dark factor)

6.25% Dominant pied Grey (single dark factor)

6.25% SF violet Cobalt (VISUAL VIOLET - One in SIXTEEN chicks from this pairing will be normal visual violets)

6.25% Dominant pied SF violet Cobalt (VISUAL VIOLET - One in SIXTEEN chicks from this pairing will be visual violet dominant pieds)

6.25% SF violet grey (single dark factor)

6.25% Dominant pied SF violet grey (single dark factor)

 

3.125% Normal Mauve

3.125% Dominant pied mauve

3.125% Dark grey (Double dark factor grey)

3.125% Dominant pied Dark grey (Double dark factor grey)

3.125% SF violet Mauve

3.125% Dominant pied SF violet Mauve

3.125% SF violet dark grey (Double dark factor grey)3.125% Dominant pied SF violet dark grey (Double dark factor grey)

Edited September 1, 201014 yr by Dean_NZ

is PARTIAL dominant - meaning the single factor of the gene can express itself visually and the double dose of the gene expresses itself more so.

Thanks heaps for all the info..... brain starting to understand the complex violet LOL. So does that mean the intensity of the colour violet or the percentage of violet young produced? ( with the DF violet)

is PARTIAL dominant - meaning the single factor of the gene can express itself visually and the double dose of the gene expresses itself more so.

Thanks heaps for all the info..... brain starting to understand the complex violet LOL. So does that mean the intensity of the colour violet or the percentage of violet young produced? ( with the DF violet)

im to belive that a df violet produces all visual violets no matter what its paired too

as in sky blue,cobalt or violet

but i really dont know as have not breed with one

as i guess i never breed one

is PARTIAL dominant - meaning the single factor of the gene can express itself visually and the double dose of the gene expresses itself more so.

Thanks heaps for all the info..... brain starting to understand the complex violet LOL. So does that mean the intensity of the colour violet or the percentage of violet young produced? ( with the DF violet)

 

 

 

Double factor violet IS a more intense violet (or in the case of greens etc, a more intense or richer 'darkening'). I guess you could technically say any double factor violet will be visual violet (in the blue series birds). As far as breeding goes, yes any double factor violet will be guaranteed to produce all single factor violets when paired to a non violet bird. When paired to a single factor violet, you will get all violet chicks, half being single factor, half being double factor. For this reason I would recommend those starting to breed violets use normal sky blues with violet factor as the ONLY colour/shade difference you will get will be the shades of sky blue, single factor violet sky blue and double factor violet sky blue. The absence of the dark factor makes identifying the single and double factor violet skies much much easier. You could then pair a double factor violet sky to a cobalt to get 50% single factor violet sky and 50% single factor violet cobalt chicks. OR pair it to a normal mauve to get 100% single factor violet cobalts (100% visual violets).

 

Be aware that in ALL colours, there are birds with naturally bright and intense (I.E. 'good') colouring, and birds with naturally POOR colouring. It is wise to be aware of these genetic traits as they are inherited (quality of colour is of course dependant on its own mutation or mutations and therefore one must learn to recognise, value and breed with good coloured or marked birds when breeding. More important when breeding for colour, but always something any show breeder should strive to maintain or improve).

There are plenty of written and verbal accounts of poor coloured cobalts that look like darker sky blues, and brightly coloured sky blues that make cobalts look lame by comparison!.

Well I went to a breeders house today, and he showed me the birds he has for sale. The cock is supposed to be violet, and the hen is supposed to be cobalt dominant pied. Looking at the hen after all deans info, I would say she is a sky blue single factor violet, because she has purple around the neck, and if she were cobalt she would be visual violet. The parents of the hen are as follows - cock = dark green, hen = dominant pied light green, the the grandfather on the fathers side was opaline violet. The cock bird was much more interesting for me, he almost looked violet, but wasn't quite there, really intense blue with purple wash, so would he be a sky blue double factor violet? Has to be, i'm sure of it. Because if he were cobalt wouldn't he be intense purple? He had a really purple bird that I asked him to catch and put in the show cage for comparison, and the one I call sky blue DF was more blue, but still purple..... make sense LOL

I would have advised you take pictures first so we can ascertain the presence or absence of violet factors, but good luck if you get them.

I will take some pics in the next couple of days, thanks again.