As some of you know I am breeding greywings. However I seem to have dilute inheritance in some of my greywings. Greywings split for dilute.

 

I entered a pale greywing in the show on the weekend ( knowing his body colour was too pale and wondering if he may be classed as dilute ) and he was reclassified into the dilute category where he won Best Dilute in Show and also got awarded Highly Commended.

He was bred from two greywing parents and he was the palest in the nest of three chicks.

 

Him as a baby

 

and now

 

Here is his parents

Dad

 

and MUM

 

Brother

 

sister

 

So, as one in three had paler than average bodycolour and is now deemed to be a dilute and not greywing, I believe its due to both parents carrying the dilute gene ? Correct me if I am wrong please

 

So how do the subsequent chicks inherit the dilute gene from the parents who are greywing split dilute ? I mean percentages .............Or dont they ?

 

The first greywings I bred were also from a dilute hen to a greywing Dad..........so they are all split diute ?

 

Is it worth working with these greywings knowing they or some are split dilute and can you breed the dilute out of them in future chicks by careful pairings ?

 

Anyone who knows or understand how this gene works can you please advise

Edited April 29, 201015 yr by KAZ

Hey Kaz

 

 

Personally I don't think he really is a dilute - especially not when you see him in his adult plummage. I believe that there is now a reasonable range of greywing genetics from strongly coloured to the original mutations 1/2 body colour. When you compare him to his sister he is not ALL THAT less coloured than her and his skyblue rather than darkfactor plummage would not help.

 

When you look at true dilutes their body colour is supposed to be around 30% of the normal and he definitely is not that far diluted. My opinion is that he is still greywing but with body colour modifiers more like the original form of the mutation, not the now modified fuller body colour that is required by the current standard.

 

I think that the way the current standard is, there will always be a bit of confusion and judges will have to make subjective decisions based on how the bird looks according to the standard. Unfortuately for this bird he is really neither nor due to his slightly reduced body colour intensity.

 

So for genetics I would be classing him as a greywing (noting that his body colour is not optimum). What you enter him into a show as will probably always be a bit of a pot luck like with a heavily marked albino - some judges will wrong class it into lacewing and some won't depending on how heavy or not the markings are. The BES cop this quite a bit too - are they too heavily coloured for the BES and so should be entered into the dilute (AOSV) class - some judges will ping a bird and some won't that's just how it goes as we all see things a bit differently and the standard means that we have to make subjective decisions.

 

So to work with these birds, YES it's very useful. Greywing is dominant to dilute so if you breed a full greywing to a full dilute ALL the babies will be visually greywing (but split dilute) so you don't have to mess about for a full season breeding normal splits which you can't show as greywing. BUT dilutes have diluted body colour and sometimes the modifiers that affect body colour will be passed onto the young regardless of if they are genetically greywing or not. Same thing happens with my very clear clearwing family - I have dilute in that line but the dilutes I breed from them have diluted body colour but retain the clear wings (wing modifier passed on from the clearwings). There is always going to be variation between birds and you then have to make the decision - is he good enough for you to use in your greywing breeding REGARDLESS of the fact that his body colour is not optimum. I would say yes but work with a strongly coloured partner for the bird.

Thankyou very much Nubbly Great info and answer...and i am beginning to get it.

 

 

I also have two very nice cocks...sold to me as greywings but others have said are dilutes.

 

Dilute or greywing number one

 

 

 

 

Dilute or greywing number two

 

 

Edited April 29, 201015 yr by KAZ

As some of you know I am breeding greywings. However I seem to have dilute inheritance in some of my greywings. Greywings split for dilute.

 

I entered a pale greywing in the show on the weekend ( knowing his body colour was too pale and wondering if he may be classed as dilute ) and he was reclassified into the dilute category where he won Best Dilute in Show and also got awarded Highly Commended.

He was bred from two greywing parents and he was the palest in the nest of three chicks.

 

Him as a baby

 

and now

 

Here is his parents

Dad

 

and MUM

 

Brother

 

sister

 

So, as one in three had paler than average bodycolour and is now deemed to be a dilute and not greywing, I believe its due to both parents carrying the dilute gene ? Correct me if I am wrong please

 

So how do the subsequent chicks inherit the dilute gene from the parents who are greywing split dilute ? I mean percentages .............Or dont they ?

 

The first greywings I bred were also from a dilute hen to a greywing Dad..........so they are all split diute ?

 

Is it worth working with these greywings knowing they or some are split dilute and can you breed the dilute out of them in future chicks by careful pairings ?

 

Anyone who knows or understand how this gene works can you please advise

 

 

 

 

Hi Kaz, I agree with Nuddly, he is a greywing, my suggestion would be use him to the best dark green or cobalt you can find to breed split greywings with stronger body colour. As for the judges I feel sorry for them they have no knowledge of how a bird was bred and must make a decision on visual inspection only. I can tell you after judging for 35 years I have little patience for those breeders who deliberately set out to trick the judge by showing birds such as cinnamon clearwings or spangle blackeyes. Just a personal gripe, anyway nice greywings keep up the good work.

Hmmmm greens..... much harder in my opinion...... The bottom one at least is too coloured to me for a dilute but if they are grey green that will alter the depth of colour a bit too. I'll try and fossic up the picture of my 3 different green dilutes for some comparison.

 

Oh and I forgot to mention, YES you do have to be aware of where the dilute is and pair according to your knowledge. Greywing split dilutes paired together will produce 25% greywing/greywing, 50% greywing/dilute and 25% dilute/dilute so to prevent a complete overrun of dilutes you need to be aware of them, just the same as other recessive traits. But dilutes bred from normal splits can be stonkers and are therefore highly sought after as outcrosses for both greywing and clearwing breeders for the reasons I mentioned above.

Edited April 29, 201015 yr by nubbly5

Yep, I'll stay out of this one lol. As with anybody, I have difficulty distinguishing dilutes, greywings and clearwings because of the variable colour strength throughout all three varieties that are basically 'sister' mutations. All are dilute mutations, just slightly different from eachother with an order of dominance from normal > greywing > clearwing > dilute.

 

As Nubbly said a greywing/grewying paired to a dilute/dilute can only produce 100% greywing/dilute (visual greywings). The tricky part is knowing who is greywing/greywing which you can only tell through breeding. Dilutes then become quite handy there, as any greywing paired to a dilute will instantly reveal if it is greywing/dilute or greywing/greywing because of the chicks. If you get 100% visual greywings, you know the greywing parent is NOT split dilute. If you get 50% greywings and 50% dilutes, you know the greywing parent IS split for dilute.

 

A greywing/dilute X greywing/dilute pairing will produce 25% greywing/greywing, 50% greywing/dilute and 25% dilute/dilute chicks. That basically means you can expect 3/4 chicks to be visual greywing regardless of split. BUT as nubbly also said, the problem with dilute breeding is similar to that of opaline breeding - even if the chicks arent dilute (or opaline) themselves, they often inherit some sort of residual or crossover effect somehow (ie normal chicks with opalescence, or greywing chicks that are very dilute in colour).

Edited April 29, 201015 yr by Dean_NZ

The judge,did he ask for a second

opinion,I would be doing as others have said,

& mateing them to good normals,mating,greywing to greywing

may be,the reason for them,being light in colour,but back to

the normals,you may breed yourself a good family of Greywings,

Not that they are not looking good now,will just darken them up that bit

& you will have no problem in them being wrong classsed.

Hi Kaz, I agree with Nubbly, he is a greywing, my suggestion would be use him to the best dark green or cobalt you can find to breed split greywings with stronger body colour. As for the judges I feel sorry for them they have no knowledge of how a bird was bred and must make a decision on visual inspection only. I can tell you after judging for 35 years I have little patience for those breeders who deliberately set out to trick the judge by showing birds such as cinnamon clearwings or spangle blackeyes. Just a personal gripe, anyway nice greywings keep up the good work.

Good suggestion about pairing CW and thankyou very much ...........I have been told a couple of times now by a judge or two that one judge will see such a bird as a dilute and another judge will see the same bird as a greywing

Yep, I'll stay out of this one lol. As with anybody, I have difficulty distinguishing dilutes, greywings and clearwings because of the variable colour strength throughout all three varieties that are basically 'sister' mutations. All are dilute mutations, just slightly different from eachother with an order of dominance from normal > greywing > clearwing > dilute.As Nubbly said a greywing/grewying paired to a dilute/dilute can only produce 100% greywing/dilute (visual greywings). The tricky part is knowing who is greywing/greywing which you can only tell through breeding. Dilutes then become quite handy there, as any greywing paired to a dilute will instantly reveal if it is greywing/dilute or greywing/greywing because of the chicks. If you get 100% visual greywings, you know the greywing parent is NOT split dilute. If you get 50% greywings and 50% dilutes, you know the greywing parent IS split for dilute.A greywing/dilute X greywing/dilute pairing will produce 25% greywing/greywing, 50% greywing/dilute and 25% dilute/dilute chicks. That basically means you can expect 3/4 chicks to be visual greywing regardless of split. BUT as nubbly also said, the problem with dilute breeding is similar to that of opaline breeding - even if the chicks arent dilute (or opaline) themselves, they often inherit some sort of residual or crossover effect somehow (ie normal chicks with opalescence, or greywing chicks that are very dilute in colour).

Thankyou Dean. What you have said has a lot of bearing on my earlier topic about the greywing to dilute pairing here http://forums.budgiebreeders.asn.au/index....+dilute+pairingand all the greywings produced from that pairing will be split dilute then ...right ?

The judge,did he ask for a secondopinion,I would be doing as others have said,& mateing them to good normals,mating,greywing to greywingmay be,the reason for them,being light in colour,but back tothe normals,you may breed yourself a good family of Greywings,Not that they are not looking good now,will just darken them up that bit& you will have no problem in them being wrong classsed.

Thankyou very much Macka for the good info you have suggested. At this show was five judges ( not all judging at the time ) and they may have been consulted. I had entered other better coloured greywings and they may have been used as comparison for the difference in body colour.

Yes ALL visual greywings produced from a greywing/greywing or greywing/dilute paired with a dilute/dilute will be split for dilute, as the dilute parent can only pass on one dilute gene and the other parent will pass on either greywing or dilute depending on whether it is pure greywing or split.

I thought he was too dark for a dilute too, here is my dilute, she is going with a clearwing later on.

 

 

She looks much better now as she is nearly 12 months old. these pics were taken in Nov last year.

But you can see how pale her colout is.

Three years ago I had a bird in a show that was deemed dilute but the judge said it could go either way ( same judge by the way )

 

this topic http://forums.budgiebreeders.asn.au/index....5&hl=ferris

Whats the new news re showing dilutes in the future at the Nationals ?

Interestingly I paired two budgies that all and sundry had declared dilutes as they were pale enough to be dilute. Chick they hatched out was full body colour light green greywing. Unfortunately parent attacked it last night and despite all attempts by me it passed away.

So then Kaz one of the parents would have to be a grey wing. Sorry that you lost it, I am having the same problem here, hens are attacking yet but they are just not feeding them. Yesterday a chick from my white boy hatched (only 2 fertile eggs) and the mother has wonderful directional feather, so really counting on these chicks, well the stupid hen didn't feed the chick.

Dead this morning, and I found a 12 day old chick dead too.

So then Kaz one of the parents would have to be a grey wing. Sorry that you lost it, I am having the same problem here, hens arent attacking yet but they are just not feeding them. Yesterday a chick from my white boy hatched (only 2 fertile eggs) and the mother has wonderful directional feather, so really counting on these chicks, well the stupid hen didn't feed the chick.

Dead this morning, and I found a 12 day old chick dead too.

Both would have to be greywing Splat not just one.