I probably should not have paired these two parents together, seeing as they both have some quirks that make them a little hard to identify. But, I wanted a 3rd pair to put down, and Phoebe was my only other adult budgie, until I bought Bailey.

 

First I'll start with Phoebe. When I bought her, I thought she was a double factor dominant pied. Then I read Neville's excellent post on combination pieds, and I got the idea that maybe she is dom pied combined with recessive pied. click here to see Nevillle's post.

 

Here are some photos of Phoebe:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Before she moulted, Phoebe had several different shades of blue on her, and also different shades of green. Her yellow suffusion went throughout most of her body, but it was a paler yellow than it is now. So I think that means that she is either cobalt or mauve, definitely not sky blue. She is also opaline, but that doesn't affect the appearance of any chicks in this clutch, except that all the males will be split to opaline.

 

So if Phoebe were DF dom pied, then I would expect 100% of her offspring to get the dom pied gene. If she were dom pied/ recessive pied, then I would expect half of her chicks to get her recessive pied gene, and then depending on what they got from their father, it would probably affect their appearance.

 

Well, the unexpected thing is, that some of her chicks appear to be clearflight pieds.

 

Now to discuss Bailey, the father.

 

 

Sorry, I don't have very good pictures of Bailey, I'll have to work on that. At first glance, Bailey appears to be a normal grey greywing, split to recessive pied. (He has a pied spot on athe back of his head, not visible in photo.)

 

But on closer inspection, he has one clear flight feather on his right wing.

 

There is more to confuse us about Bailey, though.

 

I bought him from the breeder who bred him. She gave me a hatch certificate that lists his father as a "double factor pied" and his mother as a normal light green greywing. She was a little confused as to how she got a normal/recessive pied from this pairing, I think she was expecting all dom pieds. Well, when Bailey grew up, she bred him. (not sure what to, maybe a normal.) They threw some dom pied chicks, which could only have come from Bailey. So her conclusion is that Bailey must be a poorly marked dom pied.

 

She gave me pictures of Bailey's family, but I don't have them on photobucket yet. Those will have to come later, if they are needed. It's quite possible that Baileys "double factor" father could be a combination pied. (Um, just like Phoebe) And so we have the same mutation confusions on both sides of this family tree.

 

But where does clearflight pied come in, with regard to my baby chicks?

 

If it comes from Phoebe, then she must be a dom pied/clearflight pied combination. I'm sure she's not a single factor clearflight pied, because I'm sure she doesn't have a copy of the normal gene. The only other thing would be if she were a double factor clearflight pied. (I'm not sure if double factor of this gene changes appearance.)

 

Now it would be even weirder for it to come through Bailey. If he is a "poorly marked" specimen, then I suppose he could be a poorly marked "anything", including clearflight pied. Maybe those dom pied chicks he threw were really clearflight pieds. Or maybe they were in turn, poorly marked "anything".

 

Since Bailey's mother is normal, the clearflight pied would have had to come from his father, who could be a dom pied / clearflight pied combo. The clearflight pied obviously must come from somewhere, and both Phoebe and Bailey's dad are likely candidates.

 

I haven't forgotten the chicks. Here are some pictures:

 

chick a:

 

 

 

chick b:

 

 

 

 

chick c: (sorry, this one wouldn't cooperate!)

 

 

And chick d (This one I'm keeping, and I named him Dave ):

 

 

 

 

I know this is a lot of information to wade through, but I didn't want you to have to drag all the facts out of me one by one.

 

I guess the questions are: What is Phoebe?

What is Bailey?

What are chicks a-d?

 

Thanks in advance. If you can help solve this, your reward will be a warm fuzzy feeling, sent overseas.

Just popped in to say the chicks are all soooooooooo gorgeous!

From what I can tell;

Mother; Dom pied yellowface T2 (goldenface?) opaline

Father; Dom pied nomal grey

Chick a; dom pied, cannot tell the shade, maybe cobalt.

Chick b; Dom pied cobalt(?) yellowface

Chick c; Same as b

Chick d; Same as a, but better markings

From what I can tell;Mother; Dom pied yellowface T2 (goldenface?) opalineFather; Dom pied nomal greyChick a; dom pied, cannot tell the shade, maybe cobalt.Chick b; Dom pied cobalt(?) yellowfaceChick c; Same as bChick d; Same as a, but better markings

i say dingos right bar the last chick is df dom pie why the band is on top and looks more recessive looking but really with all that going on id just put in to hard basket and call them pretty combo breed pieds

Edited February 27, 201015 yr by GenericBlue

Firstly just to clarify - Dominant Pied is used for a few different types of pied all of which are dominant genes. These include Australian Dom Pied (or banded pied), Dutch Dominant Pied (or variegated pied) and clearflighted pieds. I have NO idea if these are all present on the same allele or not which confuses the issue for me somewhat. Also the combination of Dutch Dominant Pied and Recessive pied actually give the black eyed clear.

 

Your Bailey looks like a mauve not a grey (his cheek patch is dark violet not grey or slatey blue grey and his body colour is that funny mottled grey) and the fact that all his babies are dark factor would agree with this too (AND not one grey baby either). I would guess that he is a poorly marked clearflighted pied. Hard to tell the greywing part from the picture but we'll assume that's right.

 

Your Pheobe is a skyblue sf golden face combo pied (at a guess) or DF dom pied - I would imagine that DF dom pied might also mean one clearfligt gene and one banded pied gene???????....... (both of these are considered domnant pied genes but not sure of what the combination of the 2 would give). I say skyblue as you would have seen all mauve babies is she were a mauve and 50% chance if she were cobalt. In fact you got none and although it's not a 100% guarantee, the fact that she also looks like a sky combined with the breeding results makes me confident she is not cobalt either.

 

The fact that EVERY baby is a dom pied of some description leads me to believe that Phoebe is actually a df dom as if she were a combo (with one dom and one recessive) you would expect that there was SOME chance of the pair producing a normal/recessive baby. She may well be DF dom pied AND recessive but there is no way of telling unless Bailey is also split for recessive pied. If she is in fact a combo pied, then all her chicks would be split for recessive pied. You could test mate her with a straight recessive pied and 50% of her offspring should be recessive or combo.

 

So I would say then that babies are:

 

a) Cobalt clearflighted pied (looks like a greywing but hard to tell from the picture - if so then Pheobe is also split for greywing).

b: Goldenface cobalt clearflighted pied. (poxing smilies).

c) Goldenface cobalt clearflighted pied.

d) Cobalt DF dom pied (clearflight/banded or clearflight/clearflight ???).

Edited February 28, 201015 yr by nubbly5

d) Cobalt DF dom pied (clearflight/banded or clearflight/clearflight ???).

 

 

 

the last chick is df dom pie why the band is on top and looks more recessive looking but really with all that going on id just put in to hard basket and call them pretty combo breed pieds

 

 

 

What males this one a DF dom pied ?

Edited February 28, 201015 yr by KAZ

Kaz, I was wondering the same thing, I have a sf dom pied hen that is marked very much so like that.

d) Cobalt DF dom pied (clearflight/banded or clearflight/clearflight ???).

 

 

 

the last chick is df dom pie why the band is on top and looks more recessive looking but really with all that going on id just put in to hard basket and call them pretty combo breed pieds

 

 

 

What males this one a DF dom pied ?

 

Kaz, I was wondering the same thing, I have a sf dom pied hen that is marked very much so like that.

 

well it looks like a df dom pie should look

and giving that the parentage suggests their both dom pies

then im saying this ones df dom

you really dont know untill breeding though with that much going on in background so...

 

 

or its just a clearflighted pie as i said id just say pretty combos as theirs to much genetic mixing of pie genetics to really know with out percific breeding to certain other pied birds as nub sugested you will never really know

 

breed her to a normal cock not split anythig bar mabe opaline or cin and if all chicks come out dom your hens df dom yf sky blue pie

if only half chicks come out dom she is sf

 

breed cock to normal hen for same out come

if hes dom half chicks will be dom if hes not chicks will be normal

then go from their and disregard this clutches genetic till their old enough to breed

then treat each bird like a pet shop brought bird and find out what their hiding from their

thats what i would do theirs way to much going on for a true classification to take place

Edited February 28, 201015 yr by GenericBlue

d) Cobalt DF dom pied (clearflight/banded or clearflight/clearflight ???).

 

 

 

the last chick is df dom pie why the band is on top and looks more recessive looking but really with all that going on id just put in to hard basket and call them pretty combo breed pieds

 

 

 

What males this one a DF dom pied ?

 

Yes of course there is a chance that this bird is sf dom pied or even a small chance of combo BUT df dom pieds commonly (well the ones I've seen anyway) have what I describe as that white chinstrap effect AND considering the limited markings on the other pied progeny AND the fact that DF pied "pieds out" more of the birds markings than a sf dom would AND given it's parentage I would back DF dom over sf dom BUT test mating would be the only sure answer. All dom babies and it's a DF some normal some dom and it's a sf (unless of course that tricky lille recessive pied gene is messing thing up a bit!).

Edited February 28, 201015 yr by nubbly5

Looks SF dom pied to me based on DF dom pieds I have had.

 

DF dom pied

 

Pegleg Pete my one legged DF dom pied

Edited February 28, 201015 yr by KAZ

Based on what sort of dom pied to begin with though Kaz?

 

Not that I'm any pied expert mind so I could be talking out of you know where but I would imagine a df clearflighted pied might look different to a df dutch pied. Considering the combination of dutch dominant pied and recessive gives dark eyed clears but dominant banded pied and recessives gives the combo pieds that Neville describes, I would imagine that there is a range of pied-ness from little to lots depending on the original amount of pied in the pied - if that makes any sense......

Based on what sort of dom pied to begin with though Kaz?

 

Not that I'm any pied expert mind so I could be talking out of you know where but I would imagine a df clearflighted pied might look different to a df dutch pied. Considering the combination of dutch dominant pied and recessive gives dark eyed clears but dominant banded pied and recessives gives the combo pieds that Neville describes, I would imagine that there is a range of pied-ness from little to lots depending on the original amount of pied in the pied - if that makes any sense......

 

 

any I have had have been the usual variety of dom pied to get DF's that look like that...............mostly clear wings and clear body colour except for darker colour patch over the rump.

My expereince with these only.

Based on what sort of dom pied to begin with though Kaz?

 

Not that I'm any pied expert mind so I could be talking out of you know where but I would imagine a df clearflighted pied might look different to a df dutch pied. Considering the combination of dutch dominant pied and recessive gives dark eyed clears but dominant banded pied and recessives gives the combo pieds that Neville describes, I would imagine that there is a range of pied-ness from little to lots depending on the original amount of pied in the pied - if that makes any sense......

 

 

any I have had have been the usual variety of dom pied to get DF's that look like that...............mostly clear wings and clear body colour except for darker colour patch over the rump.

My expereince with these only.

 

 

Hmmm that's the problem isn't it. The usual sort of dom pied (ones that are commonly shown) are considered to be a mix and match of dutch and banded and combinations of - adulterised doms in other words. The standard describes the differences but in actual fact we judge them together anyway and never really make any distinction between them so we all "grow up" in the show world believing that doms are doms are doms when in fact there are unique mutations of dom pied.

 

I guess the only sure answer will be found from breeding results. It might well be that Phoebe is a combination of clearflight and dutch or banded and has thrown in a dutch pied or banded pied gene in there.

 

But I have to say Finnie, this lot are extremely pretty, whatever the mutations and if you pair the parents to other birds next time you will get more information to clarify further what Phoebe and Bailey are.

I have always gone off the DF being mostly clear of markings as do many other forms of info out there.

EXPECTING to have a DF dom pied chick in this batch doesnt necessarily mean one of them is as expectations range over a few clutches.

Just the same, was interesting in this batch that an almost normally marked parent bird with a spot on his head turned out to be a dom pied

Test mate the bird to a normal when it is old enough.. DF Dom will give 100% SF Dom. If it is a SF Dom it will give 50% SF Dom and 50% normal.

I would side with Kaz and the chick being a sf dom. pied

Wow, everyone! Thank you for all the discussion on this.

 

breed her to a normal cock not split anythig bar mabe opaline or cin and if all chicks come out dom your hens df dom yf sky blue pie

if only half chicks come out dom she is sf

 

breed cock to normal hen for same out come

 

 

Several of you have suggested doing this, and I agree. I will pair them up separately with normal partners next year, if I am still breeding by then. And the plans I have for Dave involve a normal greywing opaline hen from Sean and Colleen's clutch.

 

I think someone mentioned above that maybe some of the pieds are on different alleles? That is something I will have to look into. And I guess I will have to get a clearer idea of the pieds in general, because I thought there were just three, dominant, clearflight and recessive. All those other names like Danish and Harlequin, etc, I always thought those were just extra names for the same three, so I never bothered getting them straight. I guess it would help if I learned all the proper names.

Several of you have suggested doing this, and I agree. I will pair them up separately with normal partners next year, if I am still breeding by then. And the plans I have for Dave involve a normal greywing opaline hen from Sean and Colleen's clutch.

 

I think someone mentioned above that maybe some of the pieds are on different alleles? That is something I will have to look into. And I guess I will have to get a clearer idea of the pieds in general, because I thought there were just three, dominant, clearflight and recessive. All those other names like Danish and Harlequin, etc, I always thought those were just extra names for the same three, so I never bothered getting them straight. I guess it would help if I learned all the proper names.

 

danish and harlequin are names for recessive pieds........most often called Danish pied.

Firstly just to clarify - Dominant Pied is used for a few different types of pied all of which are dominant genes. These include Australian Dom Pied (or banded pied), Dutch Dominant Pied (or variegated pied) and clearflighted pieds. I have NO idea if these are all present on the same allele or not which confuses the issue for me somewhat. Also the combination of Dutch Dominant Pied and Recessive pied actually give the black eyed clear.

 

 

danish and harlequin are names for recessive pieds........most often called Danish pied.

 

So if I have it straight, now, we have 3 dominant and one recessive? Which of the ones colored above is the one we normally think of when we just refer to "dommie pieds"

 

Also, I haven't heard of "variegated pied" before. What do they look like? But I thought it was the clearflight pied that combined with recessive pied to make dark eyed clear.

Yep Finnie, that's my understanding.

 

Variegated pied - is the one that we typically see on the show bench here. It's described as "back, rump, brest, flanks and underparts to be a solid even shade throughout except that patches of ground colour can appear on any part(s) of the body." I think this is the Dutch Pied. The Aussie Banded Pied has lots of body colour and a nice ground colour band on the abdomen but from what I understand there has been substantial mix and matching of the 2 varieties over the years (here at least).

 

This is typical of a variegated pied.

 

Actually our Australian standard describes Australian Banded Pieds, Variegated Pieds, Dutch Pieds and Clearflight Pieds all in the dom pied section. With only one Recessive or Danish Pied. Looking at the genetics bible it comments that only 2 seperate dominant pied mutations have been identified in budgerigars....... The Dutch Pied and the Australian Banded Pied.

 

I need to have a good yack to a pied genetics expert.......

Edited March 2, 201015 yr by nubbly5

Just had a long yack with the resident pied expert and it seems like there is WAY more to this than meets the eye.

 

Apparently you CAN have df dutch pied df Aussie banded pied AND df recessive pied all in one bird aaaaaarrrrgh...... my brains exploding!

 

Good luck with the test mating Finnie - let us know what the results are. It'll help us all learn more about pieds .

Edited March 2, 201015 yr by nubbly5

Looks SF dom pied to me based on DF dom pieds I have had.

 

DF dom pied

 

Pegleg Pete my one legged DF dom pied

 

 

another common thing with DF dom pieds is they often have an iris ring one side and none the other.

 

left eye

 

right eye.

I was finally able to get some good pictures of Phoebe's eyes:

 

right

 

 

Left

 

So it looks like she has iris rings on both eyes. I don't know if that helps or not, but at least we know she isn't missing any iris rings.

 

I have separated Phoebe and Bailey, because they didn't seem to be trying for a second round of eggs, and it occurred to me that my other pair, which I also separated, are both normals. So I mixed up the pairs and put Phoebe in with Sean and his kids (not in a breeding cabinet, in a large "kindy" cage). And Colleen's spa cage has come back downstairs, and I put Bailey in with her. I will give them some time to adjust, and then my plan is to put them into breeding cabinets, once I feel like they have gotten used to each other.

 

Then, hopefully, it won't be long until we have our test breeding results.

I was finally able to get some good pictures of Phoebe's eyes:

 

right

 

 

Left

 

 

Based on those photos it seems to indicate she is also very young.

I was finally able to get some good pictures of Phoebe's eyes:rightLeft

Based on those photos it seems to indicate she is also very young.

Do you mean because the iris rings are so dark? Because they must be dark since I couldn't see them visually, only with the camera flash on her face. I've read that even birds without iris rings actually have them, they are just too dark to see. Maybe Phoebe is one of those. (I've owned Phoebe since last February, so I know she is over a year old, and I guestimated her birthday to be in December sometime.)Now I'm going to want to get pics without flash so we can see what her iris rings normally look like...

 

...Oh well, so much for getting non-flash pictures of Phoebe. They all came out blurry. But I could tell that her eye rings are NOT visible just by looking. Especially when I look at my other birds, and their iris rings stick out a mile! But at least I could tell that both of her eyes are the same, not one with and one without a ring. I don't know if that means anything, though.

Edited March 9, 201015 yr by Finnie