Well this is a space for a little rant of my own - yes, I do not expect many of you to agree with me, I'll say that now! But here goes-

 

I am sick to the back teeth with those outcome estimations, they are bloody ridiculously theoretical and UNLESS you know EXACTLY what your birds are split for you may as well be ******* in the wind!!!!!

 

Earlier in the year I asked, "How many varieties can a bird be split for?" And the short answer provided was "How long is a piece of string!" :fear

 

I do not have either a talent for maths or genetics, so basically I get the hang of things when I actually breed it because I can actually "see" how it works.

 

But here is the rub, many a time this year I have tried to breed something and the results are far from what I had hoped. :yes:

 

Case One: Lutino Line, I know my best Cock is split Spangle but when I put him to another Lute hen I do NOT want to get 2 Spangles and just one measly Lute (the amount not bird itself!!!)

 

Now I appreciate that this is just the luck of the draw as Spangle is a Co-dominant variety BUT .... !!!!

 

Case Two: I put 2 Grey Spangles together and don't get ANY DF Spangles.

 

Yeah, yeah, I hear you say that they are only a guide BUT I don't care for them too much.

 

(Yes, I guess this is a case of the operator, not the tool scenario! :hap: )

Yeah I agree Renee, they do get annoying

I know my best Cock is split Spangle

 

No bird can be split spangle Renee ........are you meanin a a lute that may be masking spangle ?

Edited November 18, 200915 yr by KAZ

I know my best Cock is split Spangle

 

No bird can be split spangle Renee ........are you meanin a a lute that may be masking spangle ?

 

Yes of course Kaz, I often make that error when describing it :fear

Genetic tables just tell you what is possible. It is what is possible for each egg, not for the whole clutch. You have to keep that in mind.

 

Using the second example you gave,

 

2 grey spangles together.

 

Now we know that you have a 25% chance of normals, a 50% chance of single factor spangle, and a 25% chance of a DF spangle. This is the percentage for each egg. It is not like if the first one was a normal, then the percentages would change, they would still stay the same.

 

People get frustrated about not wanting what they get. Until cloning and mutation assignment through science, it is all hit and miss. Do not be upset about the breeding tables, they are inanimate objects. They had no influence.

These percentage tables are also meant to be taken over around ten clutches I think ?

I think you have to look closer, at the individual egg, not the grand scheme of things. I would think that the more chicks are produced, the greater the chance of inaccuracy that the table could have.

Genetic tables just tell you what is possible. It is what is possible for each egg, not for the whole clutch. You have to keep that in mind.

 

Using the second example you gave,

 

2 grey spangles together.

 

Now we know that you have a 25% chance of normals, a 50% chance of single factor spangle, and a 25% chance of a DF spangle. This is the percentage for each egg. It is not like if the first one was a normal, then the percentages would change, they would still stay the same.

 

People get frustrated about not wanting what they get. Until cloning and mutation assignment through science, it is all hit and miss. Do not be upset about the breeding tables, they are inanimate objects. They had no influence.

Yeah I hear you ....

Genetic tables just tell you what is possible. It is what is possible for each egg, not for the whole clutch. You have to keep that in mind.

 

Using the second example you gave,

 

2 grey spangles together.

 

Now we know that you have a 25% chance of normals, a 50% chance of single factor spangle, and a 25% chance of a DF spangle. This is the percentage for each egg. It is not like if the first one was a normal, then the percentages would change, they would still stay the same.

 

People get frustrated about not wanting what they get. Until cloning and mutation assignment through science, it is all hit and miss. Do not be upset about the breeding tables, they are inanimate objects. They had no influence.

 

 

Well put Dave.

 

Just to add. In science when working out expectations it is generally taken over a large number of indivuals i.e 100 or 1,000. It is an average over those totals. Thinking of it as an egg by egg basis for most breeders is one of the best ways to approach it.

Edited November 18, 200915 yr by RIPbudgies

the best way to achive a certain breed or variaty ren is to get straght to the best possable way for an out come

eg lutes

well a lute thats not masking anything but say something else you may want to breed eg opaline

their for all hens are either opaline or lute or both

when put to a normal hen

 

eg number two

df spangles get a df spangle breed to a spangle for half half out come

but normally more df spangles from experiance

its about planning again ren and knowing where your headed

Edited November 18, 200915 yr by GenericBlue

Hi Renee, I didn't particularly want a red headed child, BUT I got one and wouldn't part with him. It's all in the gene's L.O.L. Half the fun is waiting to see what we get, I think. Don't know in show breeder terms.

I can totally understand your frustration Renee, if you pair a Spangle to Spangle you would hope for at least 1 df... The tables are helpful but I'm sure it can be frustrating when you don't get what you want...

yes LOL it is frustrating, but its the way we learn. one day it might be so simple but where is te fun in that. and yes i do understand show breeders dont exactly look for the fun but for the quality :celebrate: anyway ill shut up now.. x x

Edited November 19, 200915 yr by LILBABYBUDGIES

I think it is always exciting seeing what you get, At first I used to be annoyed because I couldn't work out why I got what I got when the tables say 25%, %0% and 25% until Greg came to my rescue and explain it's on average and out of heaps of nest not just that one nest and now I don't care but I do hope sometimes :celebrate:

But the light grey cock of A Rowe I bought the the auction early this year was a great edition to my aviary because out of 2 hens he has thrown me 13 or so hens all dark green and 2 cocks light green and 2 cocks cobalt and the best thing is NO cinnamon or opaline so he is not split for anything.

It's great having a cock thta is not split :celebrate:

and yes i do understand show breeders dont exactly look for the fun but for the quality :celebrate:

 

 

Who Says so ??? :celebrate:

and yes i do understand show breeders dont exactly look for the fun but for the quality

 

 

Who Says so ??? :celebrate:

 

i think she ment as in the really big studs that just want a winning bird

 

 

probably my influence their kaz

i just tend to see most breeders who have lost the love of the actual bird and go on looks and breed ability

they bounce the birds that dont produce or that they dont use regardless of their potential to others

as they dont want lines breed from their stock

 

sad but true :celebrate: they dont enjoy suprizeses

and yes i do understand show breeders dont exactly look for the fun but for the quality

 

 

Who Says so ??? :celebrate:

 

i think she ment as in the really big studs that just want a winning bird

 

 

probably my influence their kaz

i just tend to see most breeders who have lost the love of the actual bird and go on looks and breed ability

they bounce the birds that dont produce or that they dont use regardless of their potential to others

as they dont want lines breed from their stock

 

sad but true :celebrate: they dont enjoy suprizeses

 

I know some really big studs and even though those breeders will and have paid around Ten thousand dollars at times for their outcrosses, I have still witnessed joy on their faces at looking at their surprises in their nestboxes ...just like any of us with our $20 birds. You can never generalise about a group of people as those that do not feel that joy would be in the minority and once they have lost that ability to see joy in the surprises and just see $$$$ signs then they shouldnt be in the hobby.

Edited November 19, 200915 yr by KAZ

and yes i do understand show breeders dont exactly look for the fun but for the quality

 

 

Who Says so ??? :celebrate:

 

i think she ment as in the really big studs that just want a winning bird

 

 

probably my influence their kaz

i just tend to see most breeders who have lost the love of the actual bird and go on looks and breed ability

they bounce the birds that dont produce or that they dont use regardless of their potential to others

as they dont want lines breed from their stock

 

sad but true :celebrate: they dont enjoy suprizeses

 

I know some really big studs and even though those breeders will and have paid around Ten thousand dollars at times for their outcrosses, I have still witnessed joy on their faces at looking at their surprises in their nestboxes ...just like any of us with our $20 birds. You can never generalise about a group of people as those that do not feel that joy would be in the minority and once they have lost that ability to see joy in the surprises and just see $$ signs then they shouldnt be in the hobby.

 

i agree kaz but many still are

umm yep probly wrong wording there , i dont mean ALL show breeders but many are like gb said above still are im not saing all are cliche. sorry no offence meant :celebrate:

and yes i do understand show breeders dont exactly look for the fun but for the quality

Who Says so ??? :celebrate:

i think she ment as in the really big studs that just want a winning bird probably my influence their kaz i just tend to see most breeders who have lost the love of the actual bird and go on looks and breed ability they bounce the birds that dont produce or that they dont use regardless of their potential to others as they dont want lines breed from their stocksad but true :celebrate: they dont enjoy suprizeses

 

There is room in this hobby for everyone! From the pet bird breeder to to the back yard breeder to the show breeder!

 

Just because someone doesn't share your philosophy doesn't mean that somehow they are wrong, it just means they have different motivations, AND THAT IS okay!

 

I happen to know a couple of back yard breeders who have years of experience and a wealth of knowledge which is very valuable! By the same token their birds have a style that I personally know is outdated insofar that it is a "yesterdays" bird so I wouldn't buy them. But I still appreciate any tid bits they care to share. :bliss:

 

Now if you are a show breeder you have to accept that the goal posts keep on moving as to what is desirable. I like that! It means I will always be facing new challenges and I find that gratifying.

 

But to somehow suggest that all show breeders don't enjoy breeding and don't have any fun is, in my opinion, ludicrous.

Edited November 19, 200915 yr by renee