.... we look to be a light green cock and light green hen but our off spring are...

 

Yellowface blue

Red eyed white

Red eyed yellow

Greywing blue

 

 

What are we and what gender could our chicks be?

Yellowface blue male

Red eyed white hen

Red eyed yellow hen

Greywing blue male

 

 

i am gust guessing

.... we look to be a light green cock and light green hen but our off spring are...

 

Yellowface blue

Red eyed white

Red eyed yellow

Greywing blue

 

 

What are we and what gender could our chicks be?

 

LG Cock Y/F split Ino

LG Hen split Blue and Greywing

 

Ino chickies- hens

 

okay that's my best guess ....as gentics is NOT my forte I don't expect this to be completely correct

i no that ino is like lacewings

 

so if he is spilt white ino you will get like 15% ino and you get yellow to becos thay are green and you will only get ino hen

 

i do not no much about greywing are thay the same as clearwings

 

and yellow face is dominant over white face

One of the parent greens is masking YF (although I believe that this (breeding a YF from 2 greens) has not been qualified as actually ever having happened).

Both parents are split for blue.

Both parents are split for greywing.

The cock bird is split for ino.

 

The ino chicks are hens. Others have 66% chance of being a cock (50% of which will be split for ino), 33% chance of being a hen.

Yellow ino hen also has a 50% chance of being split for blue.

Apart from the visual greywing all other chicks have a 66% chance of being split for greywing, 33% chance of being non split for greywing.

 

YAY! QUIZ!

Daz you might need to go back to the drawing board.

 

Two greens cannot produced a visual Blue and a Visual Yellowface in the same nest. Since Yellowface and Blue are multiple alleles a bird cannot carry both a Blue and a Yellowface gene at the same time. So one parent would be split for Blue and the other parent split for Yellowface. So the following pairing can only produce:

 

Green/Blue x Green/YF

 

25% Green

25% Green/Blue

25% Green/YF

25% Yellow Face Blue

 

Now if one of the Greens was a misdiagnosed single factor Yellowface Blue then it would be possible to produce Blues.

Just talking to RIP now (on the phone) trying to understand the BLEEDING YF better........ sigh.

 

Her comments are:

 

Green, YF blues and blues are all on the same allele so you can get can't get a green thats both split for blue and yellowface. My bad.......

 

My thinking was that the YF could be masked by the green AND the green could still be split for blue. Doh! Sooooo confusing.

So Daz what's the answer?

Daz you might need to go back to the drawing board.

 

Two greens cannot produced a visual Blue and a Visual Yellowface in the same nest. Since Yellowface and Blue are multiple alleles a bird cannot carry both a Blue and a Yellowface gene at the same time. So one parent would be split for Blue and the other parent split for Yellowface. So the following pairing can only produce:

 

Green/Blue x Green/YF

 

25% Green

25% Green/Blue

25% Green/YF

25% Yellow Face Blue

 

Now if one of the Greens was a misdiagnosed single factor Yellowface Blue then it would be possible to produce Blues.

 

RIP I think you better go back to the drawing board.

 

Nubby5 got it right....

 

Both parrents are Split blue and split greywing. One is masking yellowface.

 

The inos are hens the others are not sex linked so can be either Hen or Cock.

 

As Yellowface is a dominant it can't be split but can be masked by a normal green.

okay I find all this a bit confusing so went back to my genetics bible "A Guide to Colour Mutations and Genetics in Parrots" Dr Terry Martin

 

The details on YF genetics in this book indicates what RIP is saying is correct. Parblue (as geneticists describe yellowface blue) is on the same allele as blue and green. SO we know that birds carry 2 genes on one allele that determines what the birds genetic attributes will be so a bird can carry either a gene for green and a gene for YF OR a gene for green and a gene for blue it cannot carry a gene for green AND YF AND blue. So a green in effect cannot mask yellowface but can be split for it (as green is dominant to YF and is on the same allele). If YF occurred on a different allele to both green and blue THEN a green could mask YF but on the same allele with green being domiant to YF it has to be described as split for.

 

Quoted directly:

 

The existance of this genetic family has long been the bane of Budgerigar breeders who, through their show circut, have learnt that all birds are either green or blue in colour. The truth is that they can be Parblue (in budgerigars these mutations are known as Goldenface and Yellowface Mutant 2) as well, giving four base colours! This complication has led to the false belief that Parblue is somehow dominant or co-dominant and that green birds simply "mask" the colour. It has also created the mistaken belief that these mutations add yellow family pigments to the bird, when in fact they simply remove less than the true Blue mutation. It is true that they do produce some yellow family pigments, but compared to the Normal bird (greens) they are defective.

 

His breeding expectations for Parblue matings (in this example Normal denotes Green, Parblue would be Double Factor and ParblueBlue would be Single Factor):

 

Parblue x Normal = 100% Normal/Parblue

Normal/Parblue x Parblue = 50% Normal/Parblue, 50% Parblue

Normal/Parblue x Normal/Parblue = 25% Normal, 50% Normal/Parblue, 25% Parblue

Parblue x Blue = 100% ParblueBlue

Parblue x ParblueBlue = 50% Parblue, 50% ParblueBlue

ParblueBlue x Blue = 50% ParblueBlue, 50% Blue

Normal/Parblue x Blue = 50% Normal/Blue, 50% ParblueBlue

Normal/Blue x Parblue = 50% Normal/Parblue, 50% Parblue

Normal/Parblue x Normal/Blue = 25% Normal, 25% Normal/Blue, 25% Normal/Parblue, 25% ParblueBlue

Normal/Blue x ParblueBlue = 25% Normal/Parblue, 25% Normal/Blue, 25% ParblueBlue, 25% Blue

 

My only question to everyone now is has ANYONE or ANYONE you know produced a YF from a green parent? Or even a green x a non YF (or DF YF) blue?

Edited September 11, 200915 yr by nubbly5

Yes I have breed a Yellowface Blue from two Light greens...

 

So what you (the book) is saying is that Yellowface is recessive and the matrix for the ANBC should change so that a Yellowface doesn't win best dominant?

There is some interesting thing written in an article by Peter Bergman. I dont know if it applies here but I think a lot of the Peter Bergman articles are very well written.

 

Not all breeders agree that the Yellowface genes are alleles of Blue. Some breeders claim that they have paired Green birds to Blues and produced Greens, Yellowfaces, and Blues from the one pair. If the Yellowface genes are alleles of Blue this result should not be possible. However,it should be pointed out that in the instances I am aware of where it had been claimed that a Green to Blue pairing yielded Greens, Blues, and Yellowfaces in the nest, the Yellowfaces involved were Goldenfaces. That in itself suggests the Green birds in the pairings may not have been true Greens at all but heavily pigmented Goldenfaces.

 

 

 

http://www.birdhobbyist.com/parrotcolour/peter/yface01.html

I am just negotiating the purchase of a know DF YF bird and will attempt to produce some known Green/YF chicks which I want to test mate to blue. Fingers crossed i get the opportunity to try this.

Yes I have breed a Yellowface Blue from two Light greens... So what you (the book) is saying is that Yellowface is recessive and the matrix for the ANBC should change so that a Yellowface doesn't win best dominant?

From what I have been reading, genetically YES Yellowface is recessive TO GREEN but dominant TO BLUE (similar to the greywing, clearwing, dilute genes). But as far as the matrix is concerned they make absolutely no comment as it's a book about parrot genetics in general not about how the budgerigar should then be fit into a show matrix. Personally I really don't much care if it is changed but I think that the YF is pretty good where it is now and in reality I don't think that the matrix should be used to try and argue where a bird sits genetically. I know this was a big ANBC issue a year or two ago.

 

Then the further question to that would be did you ever produce both YF and blues (not df yf) in the same nest from green parents?

Edited September 11, 200915 yr by nubbly5

okay I find all this a bit confusing so went back to my genetics bible "A Guide to Colour Mutations and Genetics in Parrots" Dr Terry Martin

 

The details on YF genetics in this book indicates what RIP is saying is correct. Parblue (as geneticists describe yellowface blue) is on the same allele as blue and green. SO we know that birds carry 2 genes on one allele that determines what the birds genetic attributes will be so a bird can carry either a gene for green and a gene for YF OR a gene for green and a gene for blue it cannot carry a gene for green AND YF AND blue. So a green in effect cannot mask yellowface but can be split for it (as green is dominant to YF and is on the same allele). If YF occurred on a different allele to both green and blue THEN a green could mask YF but on the same allele with green being domiant to YF it has to be described as split for.

 

Quoted directly:

 

The existance of this genetic family has long been the bane of Budgerigar breeders who, through their show circut, have learnt that all birds are either green or blue in colour. The truth is that they can be Parblue (in budgerigars these mutations are known as Goldenface and Yellowface Mutant 2) as well, giving four base colours! This complication has led to the false belief that Parblue is somehow dominant or co-dominant and that green birds simply "mask" the colour. It has also created the mistaken belief that these mutations add yellow family pigments to the bird, when in fact they simply remove less than the true Blue mutation. It is true that they do produce some yellow family pigments, but compared to the Normal bird (greens) they are defective.

 

His breeding expectations for Parblue matings (in this example Normal denotes Green, Parblue would be Double Factor and ParblueBlue would be Single Factor):

 

Parblue x Normal = 100% Normal/Parblue

Normal/Parblue x Parblue = 50% Normal/Parblue, 50% Parblue

Normal/Parblue x Normal/Parblue = 25% Normal, 50% Normal/Parblue, 25% Parblue

Parblue x Blue = 100% ParblueBlue

Parblue x ParblueBlue = 50% Parblue, 50% ParblueBlue

ParblueBlue x Blue = 50% ParblueBlue, 50% Blue

Normal/Parblue x Blue = 50% Normal/Blue, 50% ParblueBlue

Normal/Blue x Parblue = 50% Normal/Parblue, 50% Parblue

Normal/Parblue x Normal/Blue = 25% Normal, 25% Normal/Blue, 25% Normal/Parblue, 25% ParblueBlue

Normal/Blue x ParblueBlue = 25% Normal/Parblue, 25% Normal/Blue, 25% ParblueBlue, 25% Blue

 

My only question to everyone now is has ANYONE or ANYONE you know produced a YF from a green parent? Or even a green x a non YF (or DF YF) blue?

 

Yes, I have from Carl's YF Australian Mutants They have a sea green body colour which indicates that they are probably split blue.

Sea green body would indicate that they actually very strongly pigmented Golden Faces (or Aussie YF if you like) so they are in fact not actually greens. I know the birds you mean having seen them on the bench. This is what Kaz was talking about with her quote about breeding yf & blues in the same clutch from greens - the green has in fact been misdiagnosed and is actually a heavily pigmented aussi yf.

Sea green body would indicate that they actually very strongly pigmented Golden Faces (or Aussie YF if you like) so they are in fact not actually greens. I know the birds you mean having seen them on the bench. This is what Kaz was talking about with her quote about breeding yf & blues in the same clutch from greens - the green has in fact been misdiagnosed and is actually a heavily pigmented aussi yf.

 

Precisely!

 

Also, when the judge from SA judge us at SW earlier in the year (many apologies but his name escapes me at the moment) He said that at least one of Gary's Greygreens were in fact YF .... remember the debate?

 

Now wouldn't that bird be another similar example of a very difficult to diagnose YF?

 

Say if you put it to a Green bird then wouldn't the possible outcome be a YF Green but again hard to tell .....

 

Or am I going down the wrong track with this?

Well according to the genetics of it with YF being recessive to green but dominant to blue then if you bred one of the birds you are talking about to a green you would get a green split yellowface. THEN if you bred THAT green/yf to a blue the outcome should be 50% green/blue & 50% Yf (single factor).

Well according to the genetics of it with YF being recessive to green but dominant to blue then if you bred one of the birds you are talking about to a green you would get a green split yellowface. THEN if you bred THAT green/yf to a blue the outcome should be 50% green/blue & 50% Yf (single factor).

 

Ummmm. Well I was thinking more along the lines that YF Greens do exist but are very hard to identify so can be overlooked until a 'surprise' pops up.

the judge from SA judge us at SW earlier in the year (many apologies but his name escapes me at the moment)

Peter Glassenbury.

Well according to the genetics of it with YF being recessive to green but dominant to blue then if you bred one of the birds you are talking about to a green you would get a green split yellowface. THEN if you bred THAT green/yf to a blue the outcome should be 50% green/blue & 50% Yf (single factor).

 

Ummmm. Well I was thinking more along the lines that YF Greens do exist but are very hard to identify so can be overlooked until a 'surprise' pops up.

 

NO as I posted before according to this reference green does not "mask" or hide yf. YF is Recessive to green but dominant to blue - they all occur on the same allele (like greywing, clearwing and dilute). If YF occurred on a different allele then green could mask or hide it but yf would still behave as a dominant gene. As green, yf and blue occur on the same allele and yf is not co-dominant (see in the copy below) it cannot be "hidden" as it were by the green.

 

"A Guide to Colour Mutations and Genetics in Parrots" Dr Terry Martin

 

Quoted directly:

 

The existance of this genetic family has long been the bane of Budgerigar breeders who, through their show circut, have learnt that all birds are either green or blue in colour. The truth is that they can be Parblue (in budgerigars these mutations are known as Goldenface and Yellowface Mutant 2) as well, giving four base colours! This complication has led to the false belief that Parblue is somehow dominant or co-dominant and that green birds simply "mask" the colour. It has also created the mistaken belief that these mutations add yellow family pigments to the bird, when in fact they simply remove less than the true Blue mutation. It is true that they do produce some yellow family pigments, but compared to the Normal bird (greens) they are defective.

i have this book it is very good and all my par blue birds have been breed acording to sugested breedings all have come out exactly as estemated

and i have a yf violet green they YF GREENS doe exist

i have this book it is very good and all my par blue birds have been breed acording to sugested breedings all have come out exactly as estemated

and i have a yf violet green they YF GREENS doe exist

 

As I posted 2x before:

 

"A Guide to Colour Mutations and Genetics in Parrots" Dr Terry Martin

 

Quoted directly:

 

The existance of this genetic family has long been the bane of Budgerigar breeders who, through their show circut, have learnt that all birds are either green or blue in colour. The truth is that they can be Parblue (in budgerigars these mutations are known as Goldenface and Yellowface Mutant 2) as well, giving four base colours! This complication has led to the false belief that Parblue is somehow dominant or co-dominant and that green birds simply "mask" the colour. It has also created the mistaken belief that these mutations add yellow family pigments to the bird, when in fact they simply remove less than the true Blue mutation. It is true that they do produce some yellow family pigments, but compared to the Normal bird (greens) they are defective.

 

 

Can you tell me which book that is GB. I would love to read it for comparison. I find the book I've quoted an extremely credible reference based on science rather than heresay which is so common in the budgie fraternity. Sure science and ideas can be wrong but in this case after reading carefully the sections on Perblues and how the gene also reacts in other parrot forms I tend to agree with the quote.

 

I have been able to source a DF yf so will see for myself (so long as all the breedings work out okay) if you can get a YF green (which would mean you should be able to breed yf AND blues from the same pairing). I still believe that you can get greens/yf but not YF Greens.

i have this book it is very good and all my par blue birds have been breed acording to sugested breedings all have come out exactly as estemated

and i have a yf violet green they YF GREENS doe exist

 

As I posted 2x before:

 

"A Guide to Colour Mutations and Genetics in Parrots" Dr Terry Martin

 

Quoted directly:

 

The existance of this genetic family has long been the bane of Budgerigar breeders who, through their show circut, have learnt that all birds are either green or blue in colour. The truth is that they can be Parblue (in budgerigars these mutations are known as Goldenface and Yellowface Mutant 2) as well, giving four base colours! This complication has led to the false belief that Parblue is somehow dominant or co-dominant and that green birds simply "mask" the colour. It has also created the mistaken belief that these mutations add yellow family pigments to the bird, when in fact they simply remove less than the true Blue mutation. It is true that they do produce some yellow family pigments, but compared to the Normal bird (greens) they are defective.

 

 

Can you tell me which book that is GB. I would love to read it for comparison. I find the book I've quoted an extremely credible reference based on science rather than heresay which is so common in the budgie fraternity. Sure science and ideas can be wrong but in this case after reading carefully the sections on Perblues and how the gene also reacts in other parrot forms I tend to agree with the quote.

 

I have been able to source a DF yf so will see for myself (so long as all the breedings work out okay) if you can get a YF green (which would mean you should be able to breed yf AND blues from the same pairing). I still believe that you can get greens/yf but not YF Greens.

okay that is very interesting AND informatative. Thanks Nubbly!

this is interesting... i bred a greygreen opaline cock with a normal violet and all the blue babuies turned out to be yellowfaces so how does this work????

If ALL the babies were yellow faced then the violet that you have is most likely a double factor yellow face. As the yellowface gene removes yellow pigment but incompletely in the double factor form (in YF2) the birds appear as normal blues with no yellow pigment. The double factor removes MORE yellow than the single factor does.

 

The green was split for blue and the yellow face was a double factor yellow face. Described genetically as Gb x YfYf then when combined you get the outcomes of:

 

50% GYf (Green split Yf)

50% Yfb (single factor Yf (or I guess you could correctly say split for blue considering the genetics of it)).