The article has some good points, but there are just as many points that are "slanted" to get across the authors point of view that are not accurate. I generally take any article that contains a lot of absolutes and personal slants with a grain of salt. After all, it is only their personal opinion. Not right, not wrong, just the author's point of view.

 

that has some very good points, i wonder if the fly ability thing is true, both mine are fanastic flyer n can dart and fly through the smallest of gaps n spaces.

 

Claire

xXx

 

The ability to fly well thing is not true. I can personally attest to that, as mine can do some arial acrobatics that just make you go "wow", and they've been clipped before. But my opinion is that most baby birds are clipped too soon and there is no denying a bad clip can cause pain and deformities. But if the bird received a normal clip (and most birds are probably not damaged from a wing trim - we all know the the horror stories are what stick in people's minds because sensationalism and shock sells...just look at your newspaper or some magazines for proof of that), when the flights regrow and the bird is allowed a bit of practice, the ability to fly well is not compromised.

for all of you that think that birds are disabled when they are clipped. both my birds are clipped and they can STILL fly

can they fly the same as a bird that is not clipped ie the same distance the same degree of lift ect if not then it has been disabled all be it temperally

so it just makes it a bit harder work for them then?

 

I duno maybe if i had clipped scoobys wings she'd be as tame as mitsi by now (although i did not clip him) but i love the way shes her own free little spirt.

 

Claire

xXx

One point I would like to put in here, an example of what a bad clip can do, My newby, Albert, his wings are terribly hacked, no flying ability at all. Now, on top of the fact the he was being ritually savaged by the other budgies, he was unable to fly around the cage to even try and escape. In his efforts to escape, he simply plummeted down the cage, most likely bouncing off perch after perch, before hitting the floor, bloodies from the attacks, and badly bruised and winded from the fall. This must have happened to the poor little guy time after time after time. The severe bruising to his wings, feet, stomach and chest were the things that pushed him so close to death, even more than the bites and rips in his skin. Yes, Albert will most likely become the tamest, sweetest, easiest to handle little budgie, but, oh my god, what a price he has payed. This is a clear example of a wing 'hack' as apposed to a trim, where the bird still retains its ability to fly, but is just slightly limited regarding speed and ascent. Im not even keen on the trim, but 'hacking' makes me feel physically cold and sick when I see it. The ultimate cruelty.

i think we can all agree that hacking the wings off is completely unaccpetabel. but people shouldnt be made to feel cruel because they clip their budgies wings.

 

mine can still fly, but not as far as they used to be able to. and anyway...when casper had full flight he didnt have the room to fly because he was only allowed to fly around my bedroom, which isnt the biggest room in the world. he has enough flight to be able to get to his mounted perches up on the wall and back to his cage (on opposite sides of the room) and this is all he needs

 

now he cant fly as far he has full roam of the house, and i can take him around the house with me without the fear that someone might open the front door and he will disappear forever.

 

i think people should be respectful of different peoples circumstances instead of saying NO NO ITS CRUEL. :glare: i for one, dont have any other pets in the house so there are no other 'hazards' that he cant escape from.

 

i am not a bad person and i do not clip my birds wing to purposely diable it or cripple it, it is a safety percaution. and to those who said that hazards can be avoided with common sense. really, everything is a danger to a budgie - even furniture and radiators. it is completely impossible to avoid all household hazards.

i am not a bad person and i do not clip my birds wing to purposely diable it or cripple it, it is a safety percaution

 

you do clip your birds wings to purposely disable it,that is the whole point of doing it,if it didnt disable it then it would free fly,and then not be any use as a safetey precaution as you say you use it

no, he can go where ever he likes still, thats what i said, just that he cant zoom off into the sunset!

 

i am very offended by your comments, i am not a cruel person and you make it sound like i do not care for my birds. i love my birds and i only want what is best for them, and if i know that they are happy and have as much freedom as possible but also as SAFE as possible then that is what makes me happy.

it is a form of disabling you stop a bird from doing something to its full extent

 

to cause someone to have an illness, injury or condition that makes it difficult for them to do the things that other people do:

 

to stop something such as (part of) a machine, system or weapon from working

 

two quotes from cambridge dictionaries replace the words

 

 

to cause a bird to have an illness, injury or condition that makes it difficult for them to do the things that other birds do

 

to stop something such as (part of) a wing, leg or claw from working

 

is it me that offends or the word disable no where did i say you were cruel look at previous post and i stated that maybe it was me as i dont hand tame so have no need to trim the wings,you said you dont disable your birds wings on perpose but you do trim there wings on perpose (there is no diference to the outcome just the wording)i delibritally used the word disabled because i knew it would evoke a responce sorry it had to come from you

its okay, it just seems that you were picking holes in my words and making it a personal comment. (ie using my own words against me!) i know that you have a strong point of view, but you said yourself that all your birds are kept in an aviary.

 

if you had one pet bird that was clipped and another that was flighted and had never been clipped then that would be cruel as you are disadvantaging one of the birds. if all the birds that are kept are kept on the same level then this is what is normal to them and personally i think a bird that CANNOT fly is at a disadvantage but birds that still have the ability to fly are not in any way at a disadvantage.

 

if i could get some pictures up of my budgies in flight to show you then i would, but unfortunately i cant until i get hold of a digital camera.

at the end of the day why are you thinking of clipping? if it is to tame perhaps you should try all other methods first. clipping can cause emotional stress. imagin you waking up one day and not being able to do something compleatly natural like walking. you could crawl but not walk. this is the same thing.

the following information is from the site: http://www.parrotpassionsuk.com/Advice/wingclip.htm

 

Disadvantages:-

 

1. Wing clipping can lead to a severe injury to your bird, especially if it is not done correctly

 

2. The stress of clipping a bird can trigger feather plucking and a severe change in their behaviour.

 

3. Wing clipping does not prevent a bird escaping, clipping can give a false sense of security. Flight feathers grow back quickly allowing flight in some birds.

 

4. It can damage a bird physically and psychologically.

 

5. It can result in infections

 

6. Your bird might not get the exercise he needs, exercise allows a bird to stay fit.

 

7. Clipping the wings of young birds can prevent the pectoral muscles from developing properly.

 

8. Your bird may not be able to escape from other pets, such as cats and dogs.

 

(not from that site): on a survey of over 6500 people 6% reported self mulilation in parrots.

 

Advantages:

 

Unfortunately, we cannot list the advantages of having a bird clipped, we can put forward some reasons some owners choose to clip their birds:

 

1. Owners of clipped birds believe they are making their bird more safe, safe from escape, from harzards within the home, from attacking people, and to enable them to train the bird properly.

 

2. To prevent injury to their birds

 

 

ATD

Edited April 11, 200520 yr by Sky

i know that you have a strong point of view

 

i would not say it is a strong point if someone came along and could prove to me it is the best way then i could easily change my mind but as of yet no arguments for it have done so

it is very hard to prove something to someone if they dont want it to be proved. also it is very hard to prove it to someone who doesnt have a PET budgie, but has an aviary - completely different circumstances so i dont think you would understand.

 

surely if a bird had emotional scarring from being put under this 'trauma' then there would be behavioural signs to show this. i havent seen any in my birds, i really believe they are happy. and so far their behaviour has shown it.

 

sky, most budgies adapt very well to a proper clip and a proper clip done by a professional doesnt have any of the ill effects mentioned in your post. only very bad clips can cause those things.

Well in my case I think in the long term Sparky will have alot more freedom with his wings clipped.

 

At the moment he can fly freely but won't return to his cage until after 3 hours, and then I won't be able to let him out again for another 4 days( because our house is always busy and my mum always wants to watch her t.v at night).

But if I get his wings clipped he would bond with me more so I can trust him outside the cage and he will use me as his taxi so I'm in control of when he can go back ( so I'll be able to let him out alot more)

 

And when his wings are fully regrown he will be use to my finger and now and I will be able to trust him to come to me when I want him :glare:

 

But thats in my case sodon't take it as an argument O.K :angel1:

Edited April 11, 200520 yr by Sparky

but why would you want to take the risk? i know it may onyl be 6% but could you forgive yourself if your pet budgie was part of that 6%? and as your comment about pets and averies? wll i have had 2 pet budgies, my 1st after 2 months was chasing me if i left the room. and the second after a little longer 4/5 months say on my shoulder etc. so will time would clipping be absolutly nessasry. no as sky and skittle have both proved. wing clipping only bennifts you the owner as it "saves you time".

ATD

TIME OUT!

 

Whew, boy, before I start I want to make clear I am not picking on anyone in particular. Actually I'm not picking on anyone at all, but I will use some quotes - it is in no way, shape, or form, personal. But I have noticed something about the responses here that I believe need to be addressed. Where is the objectivity?

 

it is a form of disabling you stop a bird from doing something to its full extent

 

If you were to take your bird, clip his wings, and set him free, then yes, that is cruel and fits this description of disabling. Then not only can he not fly well, he also won't have a clue how to find food or escape predators or anything else wild birds do. Wild birds live outside. Wild budgies live outside. Tame or pet budgies do not. That already puts them in a different category. Apples to apples. We automatically disable a bird by keeping him as a pet. We prevent them from doing what they would normally do by bringing them in the house or aviary in the first place. Does this mean no more pets?

 

to cause a bird to have an illness, injury or condition that makes it difficult for them to do the things that other birds do

 

to stop something such as (part of) a wing, leg or claw from working

 

What other birds? The other birds in the house? If they are all trimmed, they are all equally able to do whatever they do. If not the birds in the house, the only other comparison you have is the birds outside in the wild. Are the things we have indoors to make our lives easier naturally occurring in the wild so that our birds know what they are and what they do automatically? You can't compare apples and oranges. You have not stopped a wing, claw, or leg from working by trimming the wings. The wings still work. They are not broken. Your bird can still use them. However, you are also stopping a bird from doing something to his fullest extent when you tell him no, he can't chew up your antique furniture, (after all, parrots chew) and move him to a different spot. You are also stopping a bird from doing something to his fullest extent when you cage him. Have you ever seen a bird in the wild willingly stay in an 18" x 18" x 18" area? Or even a 12' x 4' x 6' area, or whatever size an outdoor aviary might be?

 

 

Everyone who has been here any time at all knows what a charged topic wing trimming is. Please, lets try to keep personal feelings out of it. If someone asks about wing trimming, then that question should be answered without judgement calls. A person should not be made to feel badly about making a decision to trim the wings. It's fine to list pro's and con's about it, and that really needs to be done in order for anyone who is asking to make an informed decision about whether to trim or not. Let's be objective. If you are trimming for personal reasons and not safety reasons, so what? You are. That is just the fact. It does not make anyone a bad person, it does not mean they should not have a bird, it does not mean there is anything wrong with them whatsoever. It does mean that maybe someone else won't agree with your decision. That's about it. We all know there are ways to phrase things to either prove or disprove our own personal slant, and there are also ways to phrase things that take personal opinion out of the picture and leave just facts. Objectivity.

 

This discussion is good, as it allows everyone to put their knowledge and experiences in the collective hat, so to speak. Let's keep it going if it needs to be kept going, but be objective about it. It's not wrong to trim wings, it's not right to trim wings, it just is a wing trim. It is something that is done to birds in our society. (It is much better than a leg-iron, or pinioning, I think.) Whether we like it or not, it happens. The best thing we can do is give accurate, unbiased information and let each person decide for themselves what best fits their situation, and what they are comfortable with.

 

okay, rant is over. Resume discussion.

surely if a bird had emotional scarring from being put under this 'trauma' then there would be behavioural signs to show this. i havent seen any in my birds, i really believe they are happy. and so far their behaviour has shown it.

budgies can easily not show how bad they are feeling thats why in a lot of cases people dont realise about illnesses in their udgies till its too late... to do this properly the body has to be heald firmly down and their wing reamined outstrected wich is totally unnattural to them and causes them a lot of stress

 

and i agree it is very hard to prove somthing if sombody dosent want it proven to them, its also very hard to prove somthing if you dont put any good arguments forward for your particular opinion, i'd be really willing to change my mind if i thought that in any circumstance the benifits of this act outway all the harmful effects (saying this i am only on about the benefits to the budgie not the owner, any benefits to the owner should be a bonus not the primary reason!!)

 

PS not aimed at anybody just trying to respond to what has been said, good day to you all :glare:

it is unfair to assume that every budgie and every ones circumstances are the same as your own. every budgie is different.

 

if your budgies have 'proved' that birds can be tame and happy without clipping, then my budgies have 'proved' that they can be just as happy and outgoing and enjoy exercise whilst having some of the primary feathers cut.

yer this is your opinion not scientifically, this has been proven there is an increase in the stress/pain hormone, not just in budgies but thing like docking tails etc.

ATD

i agree with everything rainbow said.

 

i will stick to my guns:

 

BAD clips have NEGATIVE effects on a budgie

PROPER clips have BENEFITS to both budgie and owner.

 

only you, the owner, can decide what is neccessary in your individual circumstances.

We prevent them from doing what they would normally do by bringing them in the house or aviary in the first place. Does this mean no more pets?

In an ideal world i dont think that birds should have been brought in as pets however now they have been there dosent seem to be any good reasons for disabling them further.

 

If you are trimming for personal reasons and not safety reasons, so what?  You are.  That is just the fact.  It does not make anyone a bad person, it does not mean they should not have a bird, it does not mean there is anything wrong with them whatsoever.

now thats just wrong i can just about get my head round a saftey reason... but for personal reasons, if a person dosent have enough common sense to keep a fully flying bird safe then, no i dont think that they should have a pet bird. just wingclipping for personal reasons is totally selfish. there are other pets available that dont need to be put through this kind of thing just to fit in with a person.

 

The animals of the world exist for their own reasons. They were not made for humans any more than black people were made for whites or women for men!

it is unfair to assume that every budgie and every ones circumstances are the same as your own. every budgie is different.

 

if your budgies have 'proved' that birds can be tame and happy without clipping, then my budgies have 'proved' that they can be just as happy and outgoing and enjoy exercise whilst having some of the primary feathers cut.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

but how can you tell that they are just as happy? and even if there are you really think its worth all the stress in the middle?

 

i mean i read a post where just a door slamming caused a budgie to die... it may not seem like much to you but it must be one massive ordeal for the budgie to go through... personally i couldnt stand knowing that i had a role in inflicting that on another creature

Edited April 11, 200520 yr by Andy

If you are trimming for personal reasons and not safety reasons, so what?  You are.  That is just the fact.  It does not make anyone a bad person, it does not mean they should not have a bird, it does not mean there is anything wrong with them whatsoever.

now thats just wrong i can just about get my head round a saftey reason... but for personal reasons, if a person dosent have enough common sense to keep a fully flying bird safe then, no i dont think that they should have a pet bird. just wingclipping for personal reasons is totally selfish. there are other pets available that dont need to be put through this kind of thing just to fit in with a person.

 

The animals of the world exist for their own reasons. They were not made for humans any more than black people were made for whites or women for men!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Andy, did I say what those personal reasons might be? No, I did not. Are you saying someone who is handicapped or in a wheelchair or for whatever other reason is not physically able to chase a fully flighted bird around the house should not have one for companionship? I can come up with more scenarios if you need them, but the point was that there are more reasons than we normally think of for the things people do. :glare:

 

There may be other pets that would fit in with that person, but what if they really love birds and can care for them extraordinarily well in other aspects? How can you dictate who should and should not have a bird?

Edited April 11, 200520 yr by Rainbow

If you were to take your bird, clip his wings, and set him free, then yes, that is cruel and fits this description of disabling

if you stop any animal doing somthing natural and i mean doing it 100%no matter what it is then you are disabling it

 

You have not stopped a wing, claw, or leg from working by trimming the wings.

 

you have stopped the wing from working 100%

 

it is very hard to prove something to someone if they dont want it to be proved

 

who said i did not want it proved i am very open minded but at the moment i have not been persuaded that it is the rite way

it seems that people who do clip or have clipped in the past have a more open minded view to bird keeping than the people that dont. :glare:

 

it doesnt take a genious to understand that when a bird is happy it sings and is generally more vocal than it used to be, is more confident and outgoing and no longer afraid of big scary people around the house, will willingly fly to its owner and generally be very cheeky and cheerful in nature.

 

casper only has a few more primaries to grow back and he will have his full flight back again, he is a completely different bird than he used to be. he was before a very reserved bird but i believe the intensive training i tried with him during the times when he has been clipped has helped him to overcome some of his insecurities.

i am open minded just need persuading and nobody has yet