Posted April 26, 200916 yr Hi, :emoticon112: I am wondering what these pairings would produce? Pink is hens, blue is cocks. Skyblue rec pied greywing X Dark green rec pied split lutino Light green rec pied X GF2 cobalt Grey dom pied X greygreen cinnamon spangle Dark green dom pied X normal grey Sky blue YF opaline spangle X Skyblue normal Skyblue or Cobalt dom pied X Violet spangle YF2 skyblue/cobalt X Skyblue cinnamon rec pied Thanks heaps! Looking forward to the replies!
April 26, 200916 yr Hi, I am wondering what these pairings would produce? Pink is hens, blue is cocks. Skyblue rec pied greywing X Dark green rec pied split lutino Light green rec pied X GF2 cobalt Grey dom pied X greygreen cinnamon spangle Dark green dom pied X normal grey Sky blue YF opaline spangle X Skyblue normal Skyblue or Cobalt dom pied X Violet spangle YF2 skyblue/cobalt X Skyblue cinnamon rec pied Thanks heaps! Looking forward to the replies! Pair 2. What do you mean by GF2? Pair 3 & 4. Are the Greys and Grey Green single or double factor for grey? Pair 5. What Mutant Yellowface is this 1 or 2 and is it single or double factor? Pair 6. I am assuming the Violet is Violet Cobalt. Is that correct. Is it a single or double factor Violet? The Cock you say Cobalt or Sky. Could it be Violet sky? Pair 7. The YF2 I am aussuming you mean YF Mutant 2. Is it single or double factor? If you could answer my queries I can do more detailed calculations for you. Edited April 26, 200916 yr by RIPbudgies
April 26, 200916 yr Author Hi, I am wondering what these pairings would produce? Pink is hens, blue is cocks. Skyblue rec pied greywing X Dark green rec pied split lutino Light green rec pied X GF2 cobalt Grey dom pied X greygreen cinnamon spangle Dark green dom pied X normal grey Sky blue YF opaline spangle X Skyblue normal Skyblue or Cobalt dom pied X Violet spangle YF2 skyblue/cobalt X Skyblue cinnamon rec pied Thanks heaps! Looking forward to the replies! Pair 2. What do you mean by GF2? Golden face type 2 Pair 3 & 4. Are the Greys and Grey Green single or double factor for grey? im not sure, never bred before Pair 5. What Mutant Yellowface is this 1 or 2 and is it single or double factor? yellow face type 1 not sure if single or double factor Pair 6. I am assuming the Violet is Violet Cobalt. Is that correct. Is it a single or double factor Violet? The Cock you say Cobalt or Sky. Could it be Violet sky? I dont know if its a violet or a violet cobalt. He is very purple in real life, but im not sure how to tell. Its the hen I said cobalt or sky. She seems to be between sky blue and cobalt. Pair 7. The YF2 I am aussuming you mean YF Mutant 2. Is it single or double factor? yes i mean yellowface type 2 not sure if single or double factor If you could answer my queries I can do more detailed calculations for you. That would be great thanks!!
April 26, 200916 yr Hi, I am wondering what these pairings would produce? Pink is hens, blue is cocks. Skyblue rec pied greywing X Dark green rec pied split lutino Light green rec pied X GF2 cobalt Grey dom pied X greygreen cinnamon spangle Dark green dom pied X normal grey Sky blue YF opaline spangle X Skyblue normal Skyblue or Cobalt dom pied X Violet spangle YF2 skyblue/cobalt X Skyblue cinnamon rec pied Thanks heaps! Looking forward to the replies! Pair 2. What do you mean by GF2? Golden face type 2 There is only one type of GF and it comes in single or double factor. Is the bird a seagreen or seafoam type colouration? Pair 3 & 4. Are the Greys and Grey Green single or double factor for grey? im not sure, never bred before I will assume single factor grey. Pair 5. What Mutant Yellowface is this 1 or 2 and is it single or double factor? yellow face type 1 not sure if single or double factor I will assume the YF is a single factor as most are. Besides a double factor is a white face blue. Pair 6. I am assuming the Violet is Violet Cobalt. Is that correct. Is it a single or double factor Violet? The Cock you say Cobalt or Sky. Could it be Violet sky? I dont know if its a violet or a violet cobalt. He is very purple in real life, but im not sure how to tell. Its the hen I said cobalt or sky. She seems to be between sky blue and cobalt. I will assume single factor Violets for this pairing and as the cock is visually a Violet I will assume he is Violet Cobalt. The hen I will calculate for both Sky and Cobalt. Pair 7. The YF2 I am aussuming you mean YF Mutant 2. Is it single or double factor? yes i mean yellowface type 2 not sure if single or double factor What is the body colour of the bird and this will tell if she is single or double factored YF. If you could answer my queries I can do more detailed calculations for you. That would be great thanks!! This may seem like a pain in the you know what but as far as the YF calculations go without knowing what mutant to deal with will greatly affect the outcome. Same with the Violet. Besides only trying to help Just a thought. Have you got any pics?
April 26, 200916 yr Author Hi, I am wondering what these pairings would produce? Pink is hens, blue is cocks. Skyblue rec pied greywing X Dark green rec pied split lutino Light green rec pied X GF2 cobalt Grey dom pied X greygreen cinnamon spangle Dark green dom pied X normal grey Sky blue YF opaline spangle X Skyblue normal Skyblue or Cobalt dom pied X Violet spangle YF2 skyblue/cobalt X Skyblue cinnamon rec pied Thanks heaps! Looking forward to the replies! Pair 2. What do you mean by GF2? Golden face type 2 There is only one type of GF and it comes in single or double factor. Is the bird a seagreen or seafoam type colouration? more sea green I say, I will PM you some photos Pair 3 & 4. Are the Greys and Grey Green single or double factor for grey? im not sure, never bred before I will assume single factor grey. okay Pair 5. What Mutant Yellowface is this 1 or 2 and is it single or double factor? yellow face type 1 not sure if single or double factor I will assume the YF is a single factor as most are. Besides a double factor is a white face blue. she has a really pale yellow face by the way Pair 6. I am assuming the Violet is Violet Cobalt. Is that correct. Is it a single or double factor Violet? The Cock you say Cobalt or Sky. Could it be Violet sky? I dont know if its a violet or a violet cobalt. He is very purple in real life, but im not sure how to tell. Its the hen I said cobalt or sky. She seems to be between sky blue and cobalt. I will assume single factor Violets for this pairing and as the cock is visually a Violet I will assume he is Violet Cobalt. The hen I will calculate for both Sky and Cobalt. Okay Pair 7. The YF2 I am aussuming you mean YF Mutant 2. Is it single or double factor? yes i mean yellowface type 2 not sure if single or double factor What is the body colour of the bird and this will tell if she is single or double factored YF. It is a bluey green colour If you could answer my queries I can do more detailed calculations for you. That would be great thanks!! This may seem like a pain in the you know what but as far as the YF calculations go without knowing what mutant to deal with will greatly affect the outcome. Same with the Violet. No, its not annoying its great! Besides only trying to help Just a thought. Have you got any pics? Thanks for helping! Yes I have photos, will PM them to you now
April 26, 200916 yr Cock := Dark Green Dan Rec Pied / Ino Hen := Sky Blue Greywing Dan Rec Pied PROGENY PERCENTAGE DESCRIPTION 12.500 % Light Green Dan Rec Pied / Blue Greywing Hen 12.500 % Light Green Dan Rec Pied / Blue Greywing Cock 12.500 % Light Green Dan Rec Pied Ino / Blue Greywing Hen 12.500 % Light Green Dan Rec Pied / Blue Greywing Ino Cock 12.500 % Dark Green Dan Rec Pied / Blue Type-I Greywing Hen 12.500 % Dark Green Dan Rec Pied / Blue Type-I Greywing Cock 12.500 % Dark Green Dan Rec Pied Ino / Blue Type-I Greywing Hen 12.500 % Dark Green Dan Rec Pied / Blue Type-I Greywing Ino Cock Total Number of Progeny Types (including sexes) := 8
April 26, 200916 yr Author Cock := Dark Green Dan Rec Pied / Ino Hen := Sky Blue Greywing Dan Rec Pied PROGENY PERCENTAGE DESCRIPTION 12.500 % Light Green Dan Rec Pied / Blue Greywing Hen 12.500 % Light Green Dan Rec Pied / Blue Greywing Cock 12.500 % Light Green Dan Rec Pied Ino / Blue Greywing Hen 12.500 % Light Green Dan Rec Pied / Blue Greywing Ino Cock 12.500 % Dark Green Dan Rec Pied / Blue Type-I Greywing Hen 12.500 % Dark Green Dan Rec Pied / Blue Type-I Greywing Cock 12.500 % Dark Green Dan Rec Pied Ino / Blue Type-I Greywing Hen 12.500 % Dark Green Dan Rec Pied / Blue Type-I Greywing Ino Cock Total Number of Progeny Types (including sexes) := 8 LOL okay I am new to this, can you break it down and explain it for me simpler? Thanks!!
April 26, 200916 yr Did you get that from your head Ripbudgies or a genetic calculator? I can do it all in my head but when I am pressed for time I use the calculator. Besides with the amount of typing involved. Best to calculate, export in HTML and then post. If you look on my website at the genetics tables, I did them all without the use of a calculator. I did not have it then. Edited April 26, 200916 yr by RIPbudgies
April 26, 200916 yr your webpage does not work for me. http://www.geocities.com/Heartland2761 I'm looking for a genetic calculator, may I ask which one you use?
April 26, 200916 yr I use and sell the Avian Genetic Calculator. Try this link Pearce see if this helps. http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/2761/genetics/gendex.html
April 26, 200916 yr Skyblue rec pied greywing X Dark green rec pied split lutino skyblue rec pied cobalt rec pied light green rec pied dark green rec pied lutino hens masking rec pied all young split greywing males could be split lutino Light green rec pied X GF2 cobalt (it's just goldenface no type) light green normals split rec pied and either gf or blue dark green normals split rec pied and either gf or blue Grey dom pied X greygreen cinnamon spangle grey green dom pied split blue grey green normal split blue grey green spangle split blue grey green dom pied spangle split blue grey green dom pied cinnamon hen split blue grey green normal cinnamon hen split blue grey green spangle cinnamon hen split blue grey green dom pied spangle cinnamon hen split blue green dom pied split blue green normal split blue green spangle split blue green dom pied spangle split blue green dom pied cinnamon hen split blue green normal cinnamon hen split blue green spangle cinnamon hen split blue green dom pied spangle cinnamon hen split blue Dark green dom pied X normal grey grey green dom pied split blue grey green normal split blue green dom pied split blue green normal split blue Sky blue YF opaline spangle X Skyblue normal sky blue normal sky blue spangle sky blue YF normal sky blue YF spangles males split opaline Skyblue or Cobalt dom pied X Violet spangle err the colour of the hen will change outcome and pics? YF2 skyblue/cobalt X Skyblue cinnamon rec pied err can't be split cobalt if sky blue - do you mean you are not sure of colour. post a picture for me to see
April 26, 200916 yr Author Yes I was not sure on colour, thanks to RIPbudgies I now know both of them are sky blue Thanks
April 26, 200916 yr okay. There has been a bit of behind the scenes stuff goning on with this thread. But here are the results. To keep it as simply as possible I will only put up the visual results of each pairing. PAIR 1. Cock := Dark Green Dan Rec Pied / Ino Hen := Sky Blue Spangle(sf) Dan Rec Pied PROGENY-PERCENTAGE DESCRIPTION 18.750 % Dark Green Dan Rec Pied 6.250 % Dark Green Dan Rec Pied Ino 18.750 % Dark Green Spangle(sf) Dan Rec Pied 6.250 % Dark Green Spangle(sf) Dan Rec Pied Ino 18.750 % Light Green Dan Rec Pied 6.250 % Light Green Dan Rec Pied Ino 18.750 % Light Green Spangle(sf) Dan Rec Pied 6.250 % Light Green Spangle(sf) Dan Rec Pied Ino Summarised Number of Progeny Types (excluding hidden traits) := 8 PAIR 2 Cock := Aust YellowFace (sf) Sky Blue Hen := Aust YellowFace (sf) Cobalt Type I Dan Rec Pied PROGENY-PERCENTAGE DESCRIPTION 21.500 % Aust YellowFace (df) Cobalt 3.500 % Aust YellowFace (df) Sky Blue 21.500 % Aust YellowFace (sf) Cobalt Type I 3.500 % Aust YellowFace (sf) Cobalt Type II 25.000 % Aust YellowFace (sf) Sky Blue 3.500 % Cobalt 21.500 % Sky Blue Summarised Number of Progeny Types (excluding hidden traits) := 7 PAIR 3. (No Cinnamon). Assuming cock is dark grey green and the hen is light grey Cock := Dark Green Aust Grey(sf) Spangle(sf) Hen := Sky Blue Aust Grey(sf) Aust Dom Pied(sf) PROGENY-PERCENTAGE DESCRIPTION 3.126 % Dark Green 3.126 % Dark Green Aust Dom Pied(sf) 3.126 % Dark Green Aust Grey(df) 3.126 % Dark Green Aust Grey(df) Aust Dom Pied(sf) 3.126 % Dark Green Aust Grey(df) Spangle(sf) 3.126 % Dark Green Aust Grey(df) Spangle(sf) Aust Dom Pied(sf) 6.250 % Dark Green Aust Grey(sf) 6.250 % Dark Green Aust Grey(sf) Aust Dom Pied(sf) 6.250 % Dark Green Aust Grey(sf) Spangle(sf) 6.250 % Dark Green Aust Grey(sf) Spangle(sf) Aust Dom Pied(sf) 3.126 % Dark Green Spangle(sf) 3.126 % Dark Green Spangle(sf) Aust Dom Pied(sf) 3.126 % Light Green 3.126 % Light Green Aust Dom Pied(sf) 3.126 % Light Green Aust Grey(df) 3.126 % Light Green Aust Grey(df) Aust Dom Pied(sf) 3.126 % Light Green Aust Grey(df) Spangle(sf) 3.126 % Light Green Aust Grey(df) Spangle(sf) Aust Dom Pied(sf) 6.250 % Light Green Aust Grey(sf) 6.250 % Light Green Aust Grey(sf) Aust Dom Pied(sf) 6.250 % Light Green Aust Grey(sf) Spangle(sf) 6.250 % Light Green Aust Grey(sf) Spangle(sf) Aust Dom Pied(sf) 3.126 % Light Green Spangle(sf) 3.126 % Light Green Spangle(sf) Aust Dom Pied(sf) Summarised Number of Progeny Types (excluding hidden traits) := 24 PAIR 3. (With Cinnamon). Assuming cock is dark grey green and the hen is light grey. Cock := Dark Green Aust Grey(sf) Spangle(sf) Cinnamonwing Hen := Sky Blue Aust Grey(sf) Aust Dom Pied(sf) PROGENY-PERCENTAGE DESCRIPTION 1.563 % Dark Green 1.563 % Dark Green Aust Dom Pied(sf) 1.563 % Dark Green Aust Dom Pied(sf) Cinnamonwing 1.563 % Dark Green Aust Grey(df) 1.563 % Dark Green Aust Grey(df) Aust Dom Pied(sf) 1.563 % Dark Green Aust Grey(df) Aust Dom Pied(sf) Cinnamonwing 1.563 % Dark Green Aust Grey(df) Cinnamonwing 1.563 % Dark Green Aust Grey(df) Spangle(sf) 1.563 % Dark Green Aust Grey(df) Spangle(sf) Aust Dom Pied(sf) 1.563 % Dark Green Aust Grey(df) Spangle(sf) Aust Dom Pied(sf) Cinnamonwing 1.563 % Dark Green Aust Grey(df) Spangle(sf) Cinnamonwing 3.125 % Dark Green Aust Grey(sf) 3.125 % Dark Green Aust Grey(sf) Aust Dom Pied(sf) 3.125 % Dark Green Aust Grey(sf) Aust Dom Pied(sf) Cinnamonwing 3.125 % Dark Green Aust Grey(sf) Cinnamonwing 3.125 % Dark Green Aust Grey(sf) Spangle(sf) 3.125 % Dark Green Aust Grey(sf) Spangle(sf) Aust Dom Pied(sf) 3.125 % Dark Green Aust Grey(sf) Spangle(sf) Aust Dom Pied(sf) Cinnamonwing 3.125 % Dark Green Aust Grey(sf) Spangle(sf) Cinnamonwing 1.563 % Dark Green Cinnamonwing 1.563 % Dark Green Spangle(sf) 1.563 % Dark Green Spangle(sf) Aust Dom Pied(sf) 1.563 % Dark Green Spangle(sf) Aust Dom Pied(sf) Cinnamonwing 1.563 % Dark Green Spangle(sf) Cinnamonwing 1.563 % Light Green 1.563 % Light Green Aust Dom Pied(sf) 1.563 % Light Green Aust Dom Pied(sf) Cinnamonwing 1.563 % Light Green Aust Grey(df) 1.563 % Light Green Aust Grey(df) Aust Dom Pied(sf) 1.563 % Light Green Aust Grey(df) Aust Dom Pied(sf) Cinnamonwing 1.563 % Light Green Aust Grey(df) Cinnamonwing 1.563 % Light Green Aust Grey(df) Spangle(sf) 1.563 % Light Green Aust Grey(df) Spangle(sf) Aust Dom Pied(sf) 1.563 % Light Green Aust Grey(df) Spangle(sf) Aust Dom Pied(sf) Cinnamonwing 1.563 % Light Green Aust Grey(df) Spangle(sf) Cinnamonwing 3.125 % Light Green Aust Grey(sf) 3.125 % Light Green Aust Grey(sf) Aust Dom Pied(sf) 3.125 % Light Green Aust Grey(sf) Aust Dom Pied(sf) Cinnamonwing 3.125 % Light Green Aust Grey(sf) Cinnamonwing 3.125 % Light Green Aust Grey(sf) Spangle(sf) 3.125 % Light Green Aust Grey(sf) Spangle(sf) Aust Dom Pied(sf) 3.125 % Light Green Aust Grey(sf) Spangle(sf) Aust Dom Pied(sf) Cinnamonwing 3.125 % Light Green Aust Grey(sf) Spangle(sf) Cinnamonwing 1.563 % Light Green Cinnamonwing 1.563 % Light Green Spangle(sf) 1.563 % Light Green Spangle(sf) Aust Dom Pied(sf) 1.563 % Light Green Spangle(sf) Aust Dom Pied(sf) Cinnamonwing 1.563 % Light Green Spangle(sf) Cinnamonwing Summarised Number of Progeny Types (excluding hidden traits) := 48 Pair 4. Assuming the cock is light grey and the hen is light grey green. Cock := Sky Blue Aust Grey(sf) Hen := Light Green Aust Grey(sf) Aust Dom Pied(sf) PROGENY-PERCENTAGE DESCRIPTION 12.500 % Light Green 12.500 % Light Green Aust Dom Pied(sf) 12.500 % Light Green Aust Grey(df) 12.500 % Light Green Aust Grey(df) Aust Dom Pied(sf) 25.000 % Light Green Aust Grey(sf) 25.000 % Light Green Aust Grey(sf) Aust Dom Pied(sf) Summarised Number of Progeny Types (excluding hidden traits) := 6 Pair 5. Cock := Sky Blue Hen := YellowFace Mutant 1 (sf) Sky Blue Spangle(sf) Opaline PROGENY-PERCENTAGE DESCRIPTION 25.000 % Sky Blue 25.000 % Sky Blue Spangle(sf) 25.000 % YellowFace Mutant 1 (sf) Sky Blue 25.000 % YellowFace Mutant 1 (sf) Sky Blue Spangle(sf) Summarised Number of Progeny Types (excluding hidden traits) := 4 Pair 6. Cock := Cobalt Spangle(sf) Violet(sf) Hen := Sky Blue Aust Grey(sf) PROGENY-PERCENTAGE DESCRIPTION 6.250 % Cobalt 6.250 % Cobalt Aust Grey(sf) 6.250 % Cobalt Aust Grey(sf) Spangle(sf) 6.250 % Cobalt Aust Grey(sf) Spangle(sf) Violet(sf) 6.250 % Cobalt Aust Grey(sf) Violet(sf) 6.250 % Cobalt Spangle(sf) 6.250 % Cobalt Spangle(sf) Violet(sf) 6.250 % Cobalt Violet(sf) 6.250 % Sky Blue 6.250 % Sky Blue Aust Grey(sf) 6.250 % Sky Blue Aust Grey(sf) Spangle(sf) 6.250 % Sky Blue Aust Grey(sf) Spangle(sf) Violet(sf) 6.250 % Sky Blue Aust Grey(sf) Violet(sf) 6.250 % Sky Blue Spangle(sf) 6.250 % Sky Blue Spangle(sf) Violet(sf) 6.250 % Sky Blue Violet(sf) Summarised Number of Progeny Types (excluding hidden traits) := 16 Pair 7. Cock := Sky Blue Dan Rec Pied Cinnamonwing Hen := YellowFace Mutant 2 (sf) Sky Blue PROGENY-PERCENTAGE DESCRIPTION 25.000 % Sky Blue 25.000 % Sky Blue Cinnamonwing 25.000 % YellowFace Mutant 2 (sf) Sky Blue 25.000 % YellowFace Mutant 2 (sf) Sky Blue Cinnamonwing Summarised Number of Progeny Types (excluding hidden traits) := 4 I have excluded any splits and have not broken it down into sexes but some of the pairings can produce quite a number or variations. If you want a copy of the reports I still have them on file and can email them too you. Just PM me your email address. Not sure if I can attach docs to PM messages or not.
April 26, 200916 yr Pair 2. What do you mean by GF2? Golden face type 2 There is only one type of GF and it comes in single or double factor. Is the bird a seagreen or seafoam type colouration? This is not true from what i have read. Blue birds are only blue because their yellow pigment production is faulty, creating what should really be known as a 'parblue' budgie or faulty green essentially. There are four known distinct mutations of the fully functional yellow gene (lets call it G) - gene B1, B2, By2 (YF2) and GF. B1 is the first known faulty mutation, and in the presence of G (Eg G B1 budgie) the fully functional G gene is able to fully compensate for the faulty B1 gene and gives you what we call a green budgie split for blue. The same goes for all parblue genes - in the presence of a single functional gene, there is no phenotypical change as yellow production from the one functional gene is sufficient to fully compensate for the faulty gene. The alleles of the Yellowface and Blue series can be divided into two groups. One group contains the homoalleles (or alleles with mutation sites in approximately the same position) b2, by2, and bg (which i have called GF above). The other group contains only a single member thus far, the common allele for blue, b1. In the latter, the mutation clearly occurred in a different area of the gene giving it the property of being able to interact in such a way that a series of very active hybrid enzymes is produced. It is also important to note before going on that: The budgerigar produces two types of yellow pigment. Each allele or combination of alleles in the series codes for enzymes which synthesize these yellow pigments to varying degrees. When you get a double factor B1 bird, there is NO ability to produce a working enzyme for yellow pigment. This is the allele that is responsible for creating the first blue birds. At some unknown time, a second distinct mutation occured that phenotypically gave the same result as the faulty B1 allele. This is the B2 allele, and double factor B2s are identical to B1's, however the B1 mutation is located on a different part of the gene, and although faulty, seems more functional than the B2 allele(although not enough to produce a working enzyme on its own). When paired together, B1 and B2 seem to be able to compensate PARTIALLY for eachothers faults, and TOGETHER they are able to produce a weak enzyme that produces a light yellow pigment in the face (and sometimes this is also found in the wings or tails of these birds). This combination of genes produces what we call the YF1 mutant blue. A 'double factor YF1' is not B1B1, but B2B2, as the B1 allele is on a different part of the gene, allowing it to interact with and produce varying degrees of pigment when paired with B2, By2 and GF. Breeding a B2B2 to a B1B1 bird will produce 100% B1B2 offspring, or 100% 'single factor' YF1 mutants. Technically single factor and double factor YF1 is incorrect, as these birds are actually a combination of two genes, in a similar way that a full body clearwing is a combination of the clearwing and grewying genes which are mutations on different parts of the same gene and are compensatory when paired together. In an attempt to improve upon the YF1 mutant, the Keston bird farm in Kent, england selectively bred a large number of birds. Although they were unable to improve the colouration of the YF1 mutant, their attempts resulted in the first commercial production and sale of "Rainbow budgies" as well as the appearance of a new mutation, the YF2 mutant (By2). Keston Farm continued to use selective breeding until it developed the Yellow-Face Budgerigar Type II, which became known as the Golden-Face in many Budgie circles. The primarily difference is that where the Type I is a lemonyellow and the yellow coloring is limited to the head and mask, with the Type II the yellow coloring is a deeper and richer yellow – a golden yellow, that spreads to the body of the bird and often times even gives the bird a yellow tint. (I'll link the document later). The By2 gene is a semi-functional gene, therefore it is semi-dominant to blue, or co-dominant. Thus is can truly be called "single factor" or "double factor" as there are differences in the appearance of both. In its single factor form (By2B1), the bird appears as above - A deeper richer yellow than YF1 that spreads into the body and creates a yellow tint (seafoam green as we call it). In its double factor form, the yellow pigment can be slightly stronger but the yellow production seems limited to the face and upper chest of the bird (By2By2) as well as the short lateral tail feathers. Later still a further and final distinct mutation accured in australia. This is the Goldenface (which i have called the GF, but should really call bg). This is similar in breeding and appearance to the YF2 (By2) allele, but produces a much stronger yellow enzyme. From what i have read and understand, there remains a great confusion over yellowface breeding due to the variety in offspring that can be hard to understand without realising the number of seperate mutations that have occured in the yellow face or 'parblue' gene. Here is a summary based on what i can find: B1B1 Produce the defective B1 enzyme B2B2 Produce the defective B2 enzyme B1B2 Produce the defective B1 and B2 enzymes, and the semi-functional B1B2 hybrid enzyme creating the classic Blue mutant 1 (YF1) By2B1 Produces the defective B1 enzyme and the Hyperactive By2B1 enzyme, creating the single factor Blue Mutant 2 (single factor YF2) we know and love which has a yellow wash (eg seafoam green). I thought it would help to introduce the classic YF2 and then add that YF2 gene breeds exactly like the goldenface gene, although in all combinations produces a lighter yellow than GF. Read below to find out the breeding combinations of GF. BgfBgf ( Bgf = bg) produces the active enzyme Bgf and creates the classic Double Factor Goldenface, with a strong yellow colour face, and in adults this can sometimes spill into the chest area. BgfB1 produces the defective B1 enzyme, the active enzyme Bgf and the hyperactive hybrid enzyme BgfB1 giving a bird that is almost identical to the Blue mutant 2 (YF2) except it produces a much brighter yellow in the face and body. In the case of the body, it is a deeper shade of green than By2B1 (YF2 mutant) but still lighter than a normal green. BgfB2 Produces the defective B2 enzyme, the active enzyme Bgf and the active hybrid enzyme BgfB2 producing a bird paler than a double factor goldenface but brighter than a YF1 mutant. This is the classic Single Factor Goldenface. BgfBy2 is as follows: Composites between Mutant 2 Yellowface and Goldenface do exist and likewise produce three versions of the enzyme namely (bg/bg) enzyme, (by2/by2) enzyme, and (bg/by2) hybrid enzyme. All three versions of the enzyme are active but the hybrid enzyme is not overactive. These birds closely resemble the double factor Goldenface. Here are the links to articles that will elaborate: http://www.birdhobbyist.com/parrotcolour/peter/yface01.html http://bfsdc.com/budgieclub/Articles/The%2...n%20Kamrath.pdf Edited April 26, 200916 yr by Dean_NZ
April 26, 200916 yr Pair 2. What do you mean by GF2? Golden face type 2 There is only one type of GF and it comes in single or double factor. Is the bird a seagreen or seafoam type colouration? This is not true from what i have read. Blue birds are only blue because their yellow pigment production is faulty, creating what should really be known as a 'parblue' budgie or faulty green essentially. There are four known distinct mutations of the fully functional yellow gene (lets call it G) - gene B1, B2, By2 (YF2) and GF. B1 is the first known faulty mutation, and in the presence of G (Eg G B1 budgie) the fully functional G gene is able to fully compensate for the faulty B1 gene and gives you what we call a green budgie split for blue. The same goes for all parblue genes - in the presence of a single functional gene, there is no phenotypical change as yellow production from the one functional gene is sufficient to fully compensate for the faulty gene. I don't think you have read this right Dean. There is only one Goldenface mutation and it comes in single and double factor. I am not talking about the other YF mutations at this point or any composites. I am also aware that the yellowface allele is also known as a Par-blue. Here are the links to articles that will elaborate: http://www.birdhobbyist.com/parrotcolour/peter/yface01.html http://bfsdc.com/budgieclub/Articles/The%2...n%20Kamrath.pdf I am well aware of the articles around the place. The first one you cite is by far the best. The second is extremely questionable. G.W. von Kamrath has done nothing but rewrite the writings of Cyril Rogers and Ken Gray to name a few. He attempts in one paragraph to write a description of the Rainbow which if read carefully can be seen to be a butchery of the orignal Keston description which appears in full in the "Cult of the Budgerigar" by W. Watmough and also in "Rainbow Budgeriagars" by Ken Gray. The second paragraph is a complete re-write of Cyril Rogers from the web article in his list of references. He also has reverted to using the terms Type I, Type II and Type III which even back in the 1930's this term was not used by those with a scientific background. He also seems to do a far amount of supposition on how Keston were breeding their birds. He suggests, almost novel like, that they developed the Rainbow from the experimental breeding of Yellowfaces. In any of the writings that I have in my person and with my conversations with Ken Gray this is not the case and nor does it makes sense. Keston Farms were a commercial enterprise and commercial enterprises do not waste their time and resources doing experiments unless they are paid to do so. Of all the references this guy has listed I find that the one that probably should be on the list is missing. That being "The World of Budgerigars" by Cyril Rogers.
April 26, 200916 yr Its a shame I haven't yet been able to test breed birds to confirm or deny my understanding of the above. As sure as I sound about it all, this is only because this is the inormation I have found that makes the most sense to me. I will definately be test breeding in future to establish my own knowledge more fully. I already see where there might be some holes in the theory (for example if b1b2 is YF1, and By2B1 is yf2, what do you get from a By2B2 bird?) I agree that there is only one goldenface mutation. But although I can only speculate at this point, given the variation i have seen in goldenface birds, there must be some sort of composite varieties around. Again I hope to test breed. Although I only meant to include the rainbows as a side note, I was interested in your breakdown of the second link I gave you and upon following all his references, am inclined to agree somewhat about the butchery or re-hashing of existing information. With specific regard to his statement regarding the YF2 creation through experimentation, was the truth actually that YF2 and Goldenfaces were imported from australia? I really appreciate your feedback rip!
April 27, 200916 yr PAIR 3. (With Cinnamon). Assuming cock is dark grey green and the hen is light grey. Cock := Dark Green Aust Grey(sf) Spangle(sf) Cinnamonwing Hen := Sky Blue Aust Grey(sf) Aust Dom Pied(sf) PROGENY-PERCENTAGE DESCRIPTION 1.563 % Dark Green 1.563 % Dark Green Aust Dom Pied(sf) 1.563 % Dark Green Aust Dom Pied(sf) Cinnamonwing 1.563 % Dark Green Aust Grey(df) 1.563 % Dark Green Aust Grey(df) Aust Dom Pied(sf) 1.563 % Dark Green Aust Grey(df) Aust Dom Pied(sf) Cinnamonwing 1.563 % Dark Green Aust Grey(df) Cinnamonwing 1.563 % Dark Green Aust Grey(df) Spangle(sf) 1.563 % Dark Green Aust Grey(df) Spangle(sf) Aust Dom Pied(sf) 1.563 % Dark Green Aust Grey(df) Spangle(sf) Aust Dom Pied(sf) Cinnamonwing 1.563 % Dark Green Aust Grey(df) Spangle(sf) Cinnamonwing 3.125 % Dark Green Aust Grey(sf) 3.125 % Dark Green Aust Grey(sf) Aust Dom Pied(sf) 3.125 % Dark Green Aust Grey(sf) Aust Dom Pied(sf) Cinnamonwing 3.125 % Dark Green Aust Grey(sf) Cinnamonwing 3.125 % Dark Green Aust Grey(sf) Spangle(sf) 3.125 % Dark Green Aust Grey(sf) Spangle(sf) Aust Dom Pied(sf) 3.125 % Dark Green Aust Grey(sf) Spangle(sf) Aust Dom Pied(sf) Cinnamonwing 3.125 % Dark Green Aust Grey(sf) Spangle(sf) Cinnamonwing 1.563 % Dark Green Cinnamonwing 1.563 % Dark Green Spangle(sf) 1.563 % Dark Green Spangle(sf) Aust Dom Pied(sf) 1.563 % Dark Green Spangle(sf) Aust Dom Pied(sf) Cinnamonwing 1.563 % Dark Green Spangle(sf) Cinnamonwing 1.563 % Light Green 1.563 % Light Green Aust Dom Pied(sf) 1.563 % Light Green Aust Dom Pied(sf) Cinnamonwing 1.563 % Light Green Aust Grey(df) 1.563 % Light Green Aust Grey(df) Aust Dom Pied(sf) 1.563 % Light Green Aust Grey(df) Aust Dom Pied(sf) Cinnamonwing 1.563 % Light Green Aust Grey(df) Cinnamonwing 1.563 % Light Green Aust Grey(df) Spangle(sf) 1.563 % Light Green Aust Grey(df) Spangle(sf) Aust Dom Pied(sf) 1.563 % Light Green Aust Grey(df) Spangle(sf) Aust Dom Pied(sf) Cinnamonwing 1.563 % Light Green Aust Grey(df) Spangle(sf) Cinnamonwing 3.125 % Light Green Aust Grey(sf) 3.125 % Light Green Aust Grey(sf) Aust Dom Pied(sf) 3.125 % Light Green Aust Grey(sf) Aust Dom Pied(sf) Cinnamonwing 3.125 % Light Green Aust Grey(sf) Cinnamonwing 3.125 % Light Green Aust Grey(sf) Spangle(sf) 3.125 % Light Green Aust Grey(sf) Spangle(sf) Aust Dom Pied(sf) 3.125 % Light Green Aust Grey(sf) Spangle(sf) Aust Dom Pied(sf) Cinnamonwing 3.125 % Light Green Aust Grey(sf) Spangle(sf) Cinnamonwing 1.563 % Light Green Cinnamonwing 1.563 % Light Green Spangle(sf) 1.563 % Light Green Spangle(sf) Aust Dom Pied(sf) 1.563 % Light Green Spangle(sf) Aust Dom Pied(sf) Cinnamonwing 1.563 % Light Green Spangle(sf) Cinnamonwing Summarised Number of Progeny Types (excluding hidden traits) := 48 This has to be the longest expectations table I have ever seen...
April 27, 200916 yr yeah maybe a 12.5% there everynow and then but that... I can't get my head around... must be the effects of working in a dead end job for 9 long years... And just looking at it thats not even taking into account the possibiliety that the cock could be split for blue so those percentages could half again??? Edited April 27, 200916 yr by JimmyBanks
April 27, 200916 yr Its a shame I haven't yet been able to test breed birds to confirm or deny my understanding of the above. As sure as I sound about it all, this is only because this is the inormation I have found that makes the most sense to me. I will definately be test breeding in future to establish my own knowledge more fully. I already see where there might be some holes in the theory (for example if b1b2 is YF1, and By2B1 is yf2, what do you get from a By2B2 bird?) Are you sure you have written this correctly. If you are following on from Peter's writings a capital letter B denotes a Green bird and a lower case b denotes a blue allele. Thus in order of dominance B=Green; bg=Goldenface; by2=Yellowface Mutant 2; b2=Yellowface Mutant 1; b1=Blue. I agree that there is only one goldenface mutation. But although I can only speculate at this point, given the variation i have seen in goldenface birds, there must be some sort of composite varieties around. Again I hope to test breed. Oh, there are defiantely some composites kicking about. I was lucky when I got my first GF's back in 1983. They came from Stan Loynes or from those who has Stan Loynes stock. He bred nothing but GF's and his wife Shirley bred nothing but Fallows. No English imports then and the other mutant Yellowfaces were not in WA at the time. When you test breed you must select the correct bird with which to test or the results will be disappionting. Read and re-read Peter's article, it is bar far the best to date. Peter put forth a theory, just that a theory but it made a lot of sense. When I first read it back in the 90's it really had my head in a spin. But I re-read it again and really took note of his theory about the blue allele and if you put conventional ideas aside you can absorb a newer way of thinking. This doesn't mean to say that everything we read is write. You need to had a good working knowledge of the subject matter in order to determine this. Although I only meant to include the rainbows as a side note, I was interested in your breakdown of the second link I gave you and upon following all his references, am inclined to agree somewhat about the butchery or re-hashing of existing information. With specific regard to his statement regarding the YF2 creation through experimentation, was the truth actually that YF2 and Goldenfaces were imported from australia? Comes down to this. Anybody can write an article. As long as you rearrange the words so not to plagarise the author. This guy seems to have done nothing but confuse the issue rather than simplify things. Looking at the original description for Rainbow it is clear they were Yellowface M1 and there was also no mention of Violet. The was not that evident at the time. KFBF concentrated on Cobalt versions. Ken Gray's book does not give the answer if KFBF imported GF from Australia. They did mutate in the UK, that mush is known and they did most defiantely make there way over in later years. Here is an extract from Cyril's book "Since the first Yellow-face Blue mutations were recorded in Great Britian a number of others appeared both here and in aviaries in other countries, including at least two kinds with a very deep golden yellow mask, commonly known as Golden-faced Blues. In the April 10th 1937, Issue of Bird Fancy a Yellow-faced White mutation was recorded as being bred and established in australia and, in the same Issue, a further British mutation appeared in the aviries of E.H. Stevenson of Cambridge." The complexities of YF inheritence was primarly worked out by Ken Gray, Cyril Rogers, T.G. Taylor, Cyril Warner, Mathew Bender (USA) and John Papin (USA). I really appreciate your feedback rip!
April 27, 200916 yr Its a shame I haven't yet been able to test breed birds to confirm or deny my understanding of the above. As sure as I sound about it all, this is only because this is the inormation I have found that makes the most sense to me. I will definately be test breeding in future to establish my own knowledge more fully. I already see where there might be some holes in the theory (for example if b1b2 is YF1, and By2B1 is yf2, what do you get from a By2B2 bird?) Are you sure you have written this correctly. If you are following on from Peter's writings a capital letter B denotes a Green bird and a lower case b denotes a blue allele. Thus in order of dominance B=Green; bg=Goldenface; by2=Yellowface Mutant 2; b2=Yellowface Mutant 1; b1=Blue. Yeah i read the genes right, but i couldnt find how to write in superfont when making my post (then i did find it, but its such a hassle lol), so i just re-named them Bgf, B1, B2 etc for ease of use. But pete doesnt call the B2 a yellow face mutant 1, the YF1 is a combination of b1b2 just as FBC is a combination of grewying and clearwing. He says B1 is a blue gene, B2 is a blue gene, but together they produce the YF1 mutant he calls a creamface. I have read Peter's article a lot. At first it totally went over my head, but i see the sense in it. I do have some issues about it that i had hoped to come at through breeding to see for myself. For example, what do you get if you breed a YF1 to a SF YF2? Going by pete that is a B1B2 bird and a By2B1 bird. Simple punnet gives you 25% for B1B1 (white faced blue), B1B2 (YF1), By2B1 (SF YF2) and By2B2 (unsure what this produces). Pete gives a description of all combinations bar the By2B2 in his article, but i assume it would be phenotypically identical to By2B1, so it would also be called a SF YF2. This is partly what i want to test breed to find out myself. I agree that there is only one goldenface mutation. But although I can only speculate at this point, given the variation i have seen in goldenface birds, there must be some sort of composite varieties around. Again I hope to test breed. Oh, there are defiantely some composites kicking about. I was lucky when I got my first GF's back in 1983. They came from Stan Loynes or from those who has Stan Loynes stock. He bred nothing but GF's and his wife Shirley bred nothing but Fallows. No English imports then and the other mutant Yellowfaces were not in WA at the time. When you test breed you must select the correct bird with which to test or the results will be disappionting. Read and re-read Peter's article, it is bar far the best to date. Peter put forth a theory, just that a theory but it made a lot of sense. When I first read it back in the 90's it really had my head in a spin. But I re-read it again and really took note of his theory about the blue allele and if you put conventional ideas aside you can absorb a newer way of thinking. This doesn't mean to say that everything we read is write. You need to had a good working knowledge of the subject matter in order to determine this. You are correct here, and as i said before as convinced as i am about it all, it hasnt set in concrete in my mind. Rather it has given me an understanding and a desire to put this theory to practice through some test breeding. I think i may actually be better off getting away from my current idea of breeding a rainbow budgie, and spend some time searching out YF and Golden face birds to do some test breeding with since i cant seem to find any clearwings here. I know there are goldenfaces around. I would love to discuss my results with you and get some feedback or ideas. Although I only meant to include the rainbows as a side note, I was interested in your breakdown of the second link I gave you and upon following all his references, am inclined to agree somewhat about the butchery or re-hashing of existing information. With specific regard to his statement regarding the YF2 creation through experimentation, was the truth actually that YF2 and Goldenfaces were imported from australia? Comes down to this. Anybody can write an article. As long as you rearrange the words so not to plagarise the author. This guy seems to have done nothing but confuse the issue rather than simplify things. Looking at the original description for Rainbow it is clear they were Yellowface M1 and there was also no mention of Violet. The was not that evident at the time. KFBF concentrated on Cobalt versions. Ken Gray's book does not give the answer if KFBF imported GF from Australia. They did mutate in the UK, that mush is known and they did most defiantely make there way over in later years. Here is an extract from Cyril's book "Since the first Yellow-face Blue mutations were recorded in Great Britian a number of others appeared both here and in aviaries in other countries, including at least two kinds with a very deep golden yellow mask, commonly known as Golden-faced Blues. In the April 10th 1937, Issue of Bird Fancy a Yellow-faced White mutation was recorded as being bred and established in australia and, in the same Issue, a further British mutation appeared in the aviries of E.H. Stevenson of Cambridge." The complexities of YF inheritence was primarly worked out by Ken Gray, Cyril Rogers, T.G. Taylor, Cyril Warner, Mathew Bender (USA) and John Papin (USA). I really appreciate your feedback rip! Edited April 27, 200916 yr by Dean_NZ
April 27, 200916 yr yeah maybe a 12.5% there everynow and then but that... I can't get my head around... must be the effects of working in a dead end job for 9 long years... :doh: And just looking at it thats not even taking into account the possibiliety that the cock could be split for blue so those percentages could half again??? Actually Jimmy the percentages stay the same. I have not included the split only the visual. Of course the centages are based on 100 offspring. It just shows what is possible from that pairing. The bird may well have only two or three of those of those possibilities. :oliveb:
April 27, 200916 yr yeah that is true but still the thought that there are 48 possibilities in 100 chicks... wow that is some lucky dip :glare:
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