Hi al.

 

I've heard different mutations do different things with reguards to breeding. I've heard-

spangles increase size.

rec pieds decrease size.

Cinnamon gets rid of suffusion.

 

Are their any other mutations that do good for other mutations?

Any information on this would be appreciated.

 

thankyou,.

I have also heard recessive pied, violet, 2x dark factor and most other recessive varieties reduce size. I have also heard greys can be used to increase size or feathering, which is why you hardly see greens or blues. You see grey greens and greys in a lot of shows. I hear you use opalines to increase melanine or throat spots and that flecking is a sign you have done just that. Then its a matter of breeding that flecked bird to a bird who's melanin or throats need 'fixing'.

 

I dont personally believe recessive pied or recessive varieties reduce size, i personally feel that they havent been worked with or bred as thoroughly as normals or dominant mutations which are easier to do, therefore most specimens of that mutation are smaller. Perhaps size is connected with recessive pied, and the only reason dominant mutations are now big is some sort of crossover between parents that allowed larger versions of what once was a smaller variety to be bred.

 

As far as violet or 2x dark factor goes, I really cant say anything as yet. Most of my violets are small pet types, but also my biggest bird is a violet. So again i think it depends on what line your violet has come through. I truly believe that if you have time, patience, great crossovers and both a mind and an eye for selection - you can bring up the quality of any mutation. I dont think any one particular colour or mutation is doomed to be small.

Edited April 23, 200916 yr by Dean_NZ

thankyou very much Dean it is interesting about the opaline. I was under the impression it can be used to give more throat spots to birds. I've been told to use a heavy spot opaline with a light spotted normal to get more spots.

I've heard Cobalt x Cobalt decreases size! But not Cobalt x Sky ....

 

The thing about the Rec Pieds is that they generally are smaller birds and they're not renowned for their feather quality either. Same could be said for Clearwings .... and Dark Eyed Clears .....

 

Rec Pied hens have a lot of melanine and a breeder I know puts them to his Spangle cocks to improve the Spangle markings.

 

Cinnnamon does improve feather quality and suffusion however, it also dilutes the full body colour. Another breeder I knows runs Cinnamon through the cock line of his Lutinos to improve feather quality and colour.

 

I think the Violet question raised earlier is a bit of a myth, I bred a fantastic, big Violet hen a couple of years ago and at last year's Nationals selections a member put in a number of maginificent Violet cocks.

Excellent topic, very, very interesting. Great work Pearce.

Im surprised this topic hasnt had a great deal more imput!

violet is a modifier, like grey. it doesn't reduce the size, just changes the colour. Its the dark factors that reduce the size, so if you put a cobalt violet to a dark green, then you will get smaller birds. not because of the violet, but because of the 2 dark factors.

I've heard Cobalt x Cobalt decreases size! But not Cobalt x Sky ....

 

The thing about the Rec Pieds is that they generally are smaller birds and they're not renowned for their feather quality either. Same could be said for Clearwings .... and Dark Eyed Clears ..... Rubbish, who told you that.

 

Rec Pied hens have a lot of melanine and a breeder I know puts them to his Spangle cocks to improve the Spangle markings.

 

Cinnnamon does improve feather quality and suffusion however, it also dilutes the full body colour. Another breeder I knows runs Cinnamon through the cock line of his Lutinos to improve feather quality and colour.

 

I think the Violet question raised earlier is a bit of a myth, I bred a fantastic, big Violet hen a couple of years ago and at last year's Nationals selections a member put in a number of maginificent Violet cocks.

 

 

Interesting... As a rule any two recessive varieties put togeather can reduce size. Sky to Sky can reduce size. So to increase size go Green/blue to Sky.

 

Who said Recessives and DECs are small birds???? I have recessives the size of my normals and dominants. I am trying to get the DECs up to that size as well but pairing back to large Normal/Recessive Pieds. Not like those Clearwings(sparrows).

 

I'd only use recessives to Spangle to improive the Recessives, and have.

 

Spangle to Spangle, Spangle to DF Spangle or Spangle to a normal that has come from a spangle pairing is a good way to improve the wing markings. (yes you can get a lot of DF Spanlges, but whats wrong with that?)

 

I wouldn't use Cinnamons to improve colour. I use them to try to get the suffusion out of the DF Spangles. Plus they are a good variety in themselves.

 

Violets/lutino to lutino mating is a good way to improve the Lutino's colour.

Im surprised this topic hasnt had a great deal more imput!

 

Unfortunately Dean I don't have anything to imput, other than to say I am reading this topic because its very interesting to read what everyone is saying... I'm way out of my depth in this one though

Size is not to my knowledge been linked with any mutation available today.

 

All varieties can be improved if you wish to work at it. My Clearwings back in 2002 were anywhere between 8-10 inches long, Dutch pieds that on average were 7-9 inches long, Goldenfaces averaged 7-8 inches, Black-eyes between 7-9 inches. I basically did not keep a bird under 7 inches long.

 

Dominants are easier to improve for size because the results are quicker. Recessives take longer because people don't want to wait that extra year for split to be available and don't want to "waste" their better birds for improvement.

 

As for colour mutation effect. Sure does happen and depends on the type of change as to what the effect will be. As mentioned, Cinnamon reduces body colour and so can be used very effectivly in DF Spangle, Black-eyes and Inos. Dilute varieties (Clearwing, Greywing, Dilute) have a diluting effect on other varieties and also amongst themselves. Opaline are a melenin redistribution gene and in my opinion are used far too much.

 

Feather texture is evident some mutations but only when the effect of the mutation is present. Cinnamon has a softer feather due to the fact that the feather structure has be altered slightly due to the imcomplete systhesis of melenin. Same with Ino and Fallows. Once a bird no longer carries the cinnamon gene it is no longer "softer".

 

Don't forget the all import myths, perception and time theories.

 

You don't always see what you see. People see things differently. Some people on this forum have difficulty with telling apart the different yellowfaces, or the difference between normal and cinnamon markings. This is due some in part due to the moniter settings and some because their eyesight is failing or their rod and cone structure in the eye is inadequate to distinghish the difference. Some people are just better at visual perception than others, it's all in the genes.

 

Then there is theory. In the budgie world there has been many, many theories handed down over the generations and about 99% has NO scientific basis what so ever. Even when new evidence comes to light the old myths are still hanging around for the novice to latch onto with eager hands. Some of the bullshit still making the rounds have already been mentioned in this thread. Then there are still others such as - cause of french moult, feather dusters and halfsiders.

 

Time theory. This is a theory that people seem to believe that because a person has been in the hobby for such a long time that they are all knowing. Wrong. I have met many a breeder who after starting in budgie amassed a good knowledge base over a short time and have been snubbed for it. Some people are just smarter, more scientific, and more questioning than others. I have know people in three years know more then somebody who has been around for forty years. Time is irrelevant to knowledge!

Excellent post RIP!

 

The thing about the Rec Pieds is that they generally are smaller birds and they're not renowned for their feather quality either. Same could be said for Clearwings .... and Dark Eyed Clears ..... :star: Rubbish, who told you that.

 

 

Who said Recessives and DECs are small birds???? I have recessives the size of my normals and dominants. I am trying to get the DECs up to that size as well but pairing back to large Normal/Recessive Pieds. Not like those Clearwings(sparrows).

 

He, he, well they are small over her in the West! I look forward to seeing your monster DEC's at Nationals anytime soon! :star:

 

The thing about the Rec Pieds is that they generally are smaller birds and they're not renowned for their feather quality either. Same could be said for Clearwings .... and Dark Eyed Clears ..... :star: Rubbish, who told you that.

 

 

Who said Recessives and DECs are small birds???? I have recessives the size of my normals and dominants. I am trying to get the DECs up to that size as well but pairing back to large Normal/Recessive Pieds. Not like those Clearwings(sparrows).

 

He, he, well they are small over her in the West! I look forward to seeing your monster DEC's at Nationals anytime soon! :star:

Thats it... Eagle and I are going on tour...

thankyou all for the opinions and I am slowly taking it all in.

Pairing a grey green to a grey green does that reduce size? How many chicks would be df grey greens?

whats the difference between a df grey green and a normal grey green?

thankyou all for the opinions and I am slowly taking it all in.

Pairing a grey green to a grey green does that reduce size? How many chicks would be df grey greens?

whats the difference between a df grey green and a normal grey green?

 

Grey is an adding factor similar to violet except that it is unique in its double factor form. Double factor greys are no darker than Single factor and are therefore indistinguishable except through breeding in that they produce all greys (or grey greens). I have only ever heard good things about grey in regards to feather and size. Honestly, look at all the show champion pictures, how many greys and grey greens do you see? Vast majority!

 

If you pair two SF greys or grey greens you can expect 25% no grey factor, 50% SF grey, 25% DF grey but you wont tell which are DF until they breed. I have never heard anyone discourage breeding greys to grey for any other reason than to give caution - and even then all they said is 'be careful or you'll soon be overrun with greys"

Thankyou dea. The 25% with no dark factor, will they still be grey green?

So their is 0 dark factor, 1 dark factor and 2 dark factor. all look exactly the same in grey greens?

Edited April 24, 200916 yr by Pearce

Thankyou dea. The 25% with no dark factor, will they still be grey green?

So their is 0 dark factor, 1 dark factor and 2 dark factor. all look exactly the same in grey greens?

 

With grey and dark factor greens there are only 6 distinct phenotypes.

 

Light Green, Light Grey green

Green, Grey Green

Olive Green, Olive Grey Green.

 

Double factor greys will appear the same as single factor greys. If you have two grey greens (1 dark factor each) then you have the following breeding outcomes:

25% Light greens

50% Greens

25% Olive Greens

Edited April 24, 200916 yr by Dean_NZ

pearce you read that wrong it was 25% no GREY factor - meaning normal greens.

 

what was the issue with breeding Ino's together again? I always thought it was to do with sizing.

thankyou both. I knew it was 25% no dark factor but I did not know if they were greens or grey greens. It call confuses me.

 

I dont understand this dean.

If you have two grey greens (1 dark factor each) then you have the following breeding outcomes:

25% Light greens

50% Greens

25% Olive Greens

 

I thought I would get grey green birds from this pairing?

The thing about the Rec Pieds is that they generally are smaller birds and they're not renowned for their feather quality either. Same could be said for Clearwings .... and Dark Eyed Clears ..... Rubbish, who told you that.

 

 

Who said Recessives and DECs are small birds???? I have recessives the size of my normals and dominants. I am trying to get the DECs up to that size as well but pairing back to large Normal/Recessive Pieds. Not like those Clearwings(sparrows). :bow:

 

He, he, well they are small over her in the West! I look forward to seeing your monster DEC's at Nationals anytime soon!

 

I'll have to wait till they allow DECs in the nationals... I must be part german as I like power in my birds, even the recessive varieties.

 

thankyou all for the opinions and I am slowly taking it all in.

Pairing a grey green to a grey green does that reduce size? How many chicks would be df grey greens?

whats the difference between a df grey green and a normal grey green?

 

Grey Greens increase size. Grey green to grey green will give you a 25% DF Grey Green. They look as exactly the same as a grey green but will breed 100% grey green.

Thankyou Daz. So I will get 25% df grey greens, 50% 1 factor grey greens and 25% 0 factor grey greens. Right?

out of my grey-green pair i got 1 grey and i grey-green and to normal greens

thankyou both. I knew it was 25% no dark factor but I did not know if they were greens or grey greens. It call confuses me.

 

I dont understand this dean.

If you have two grey greens (1 dark factor each) then you have the following breeding outcomes:

25% Light greens

50% Greens

25% Olive Greens

 

I thought I would get grey green birds from this pairing?

 

Sorry! Should have been more clear! The above breeding outcomes are for dark factor alone, although you have the same outcomes for grey since you are likely dealing with 1 grey factor and 1 dark factor in each parent. I dont have a mutation calculator, i just go off my head, but there are a number of variations you can get from this pairing but i cant yet think of the chances for each. There are only 6 phenotypes possible (as SF and DF are phenotypically identical), but 9 genotypes possible.

 

Edit: You could get something along the lines of:

 

(6.25%) Light green, (12.5%) Light SF Grey Green, (6.25%) Light DF Grey Green

(12.5%) Green, (25%) SF Grey Green, (12.5%) DF Grey Green

(6.25%) Olive Green, (12.5%) Olive SF Grey Green, (6.25%) Olive DF Grey Green

Edited April 24, 200916 yr by Dean_NZ