It's a bit like making a cake. If you add Flour to Flour you get flour. But if you add Beer to Flour and then some salt you get a beer batter.

 

It's the pairing that you decide to put together such as the directional feathering and blow of an Armstrong Bird to the Shoulder and strength of a Ganzer bird and the fethering of a Hollingsworth bird could then produce a Wells bird. It's then your recepie.

Edited March 1, 200916 yr by Daz

It's a bit like making a cake. If you add Flour to Flour you get flour. But if you add Beer to Flour and then some salt you get a beer batter.

 

It's the pairing that you decide to put together such as the directional feathering and blow of an Armstrong Bird to the Shoulder and strength of a Ganzer bird and the fethering of a Hollingsworth bird could then produce a Wells bird. It's then your recepie.

 

 

Great explanation Daz

Daz do you have your own line of birds? I dont understand how it works. You get birds from specific breeders lines and breed them together, how would you create your own line?

 

If you bred a Gary Armstrong bird with a blair and pool bird, and kept breeding their children on and on for 10 years. Would they still be Gary Armstrong and blair and pool line? Or would they be your line?

 

If I breed Armstrong to armstong it will still be an armstrong blood line. But if I start to breed Armstrong to Ganzer it becomes an Armstrong / Ganzer.

 

 

Daz do you have your own line of birds? I dont understand how it works. You get birds from specific breeders lines and breed them together, how would you create your own line?

 

If you bred a Gary Armstrong bird with a blair and pool bird, and kept breeding their children on and on for 10 years. Would they still be Gary Armstrong and blair and pool line? Or would they be your line?

 

As soon as bird has your ring on it it is Your bloodline.

 

No I would disagree. But every Breeder has their view on this.

 

However, you may choose to refer to its bloodlines by indicating where the forefathers came from. Many breeders do that when they sell their birds at auction.... They'll say Normal Green from Armstrong x Gearing line.

 

This is what I do. I have may own line which has the combinations in the back ground. I gave up when I paired a Ganzer/Blair & Polle to a Hollingworth / Holmes & Howard. instead of a Ganzer / Blair & Poole / Hollingsworth / Holmes & Howard bird. I called this a D. Wells bird.

 

I agree with Daz's line of thinking. Breeding say an Armstrong bird to an Armstrong bird still makes the chicks Armstrong chicks and not my bloodline. My bloodline will result from my legring on 3 generations or so down the track I would say of my choices in breeding partners. If birds come from a breeder as a Pair to be bred to each other then they are still that breeders bloodline not my own.

 

Hmmmmm. I disagree. The way I see it YOU chose the pairings and therefor the resulting chicks are a product of YOUR breeding program and as a direct result composite of YOUR bloodline/flock. Just because you have a few Armstrong birds and you decide to pair them together does not mean that they are not YOURS.

 

I think many people hold on to the Gearing, Armstrong, Ganzer, etc., etc., etc. myth of bloodlines because it is like holding on to a well known brand and in a way lends more respectability to their flock. It is like saying, 'Oh my birds are not jujst any birds, they have this and that behind them'. At the end of the days it is GENETICS not Bloodlines that determines the features of your flock.

Hmmmmm. I disagree. The way I see it YOU chose the pairings and therefor the resulting chicks are a product of YOUR breeding program and as a direct result composite of YOUR bloodline/flock. Just because you have a few Armstrong birds and you decide to pair them together does not mean that they are not YOURS.

 

I think many people hold on to the Gearing, Armstrong, Ganzer, etc., etc., etc. myth of bloodlines because it is like holding on to a well known brand and in a way lends more respectability to their flock. It is like saying, 'Oh my birds are not jujst any birds, they have this and that behind them'. At the end of the days it is GENETICS not Bloodlines that determines the features of your flock.

 

If you buy a PAIR OF BIRDS as a pair and a suggested pairing by the original breeder they are that breeders line not your own. I do not mean choices made by yourself. BUT I do still think they are not your own line until you have put something of your own into the mix whether it be another bird or other breeding choices.

 

Besides I hear you Renee, like any other of us saying..."it's my Gearing bird or its my Alder bird" too ....its only when chicks arrive that they become your own sort of...and even then if they are 100% Armstrong they are still an Armstrong line and not your own.

Edited March 1, 200916 yr by KAZ

Thanks Daz for the explanation.

Hmmmmm. I disagree. The way I see it YOU chose the pairings and therefor the resulting chicks are a product of YOUR breeding program and as a direct result composite of YOUR bloodline/flock. Just because you have a few Armstrong birds and you decide to pair them together does not mean that they are not YOURS.

 

I think many people hold on to the Gearing, Armstrong, Ganzer, etc., etc., etc. myth of bloodlines because it is like holding on to a well known brand and in a way lends more respectability to their flock. It is like saying, 'Oh my birds are not jujst any birds, they have this and that behind them'. At the end of the days it is GENETICS not Bloodlines that determines the features of your flock.

 

If you buy a PAIR OF BIRDS as a pair and a suggested pairing by the original breeder they are that breeders line not your own. I do not mean choices made by yourself. BUT I do still think they are not your own line until you have put something of your own into the mix whether it be another bird or other breeding choices.

 

Besides I hear you Renee, like any other of us saying..."it's my Gearing bird or its my Alder bird" too ....its only when chicks arrive that they become your own sort of...and even then if they are 100% Armstrong they are still an Armstrong line and not your own.

 

Well I tend to agree with you on that one 'cause the way I see it, it's a bit of a grey area when you buy a pair and follow the breeder's suggestions.

 

But I would have to say that that example is more the exception to the rule. I know you've done it Kaz, and I wouldn't be surprised if you have done it too Daz, BUT most people, and I'm talking Novice breeders here, tend to buy a bird here and a bird there.

 

Last year I put a Bob Levy hen to a Brett Wood cock (that is they were both bought birds with Levy & Wood rings on), now I don't know about you but I consider the chicks to be 100% mine and while they DO come from very respectable studs I still consider them to be composite of my breeding program.

 

Likewise last year I bought in 10 John Kobilanski birds and 6 Carl Alder birds and I have kept 'the families' together, that is I paired Kobilanski birds to Kobilanski and Alder to Alder birds. I chose the pairingfs according to my breeding program and while of course I will refer to the progeny as Kobilanski family and Alder family I still consider them to be of my bloodline.

 

Notwithstanding the above, in all honesty I do not think you can really say you have your OWN 'bloodline' till you are an Intermediate breeder because by then you will have a had at least 3-4 breeding seasons under your belt and your flock will be a TRUE mixture of all your bought and bred birds.

 

I should add that I'm not really a fan of the term BLOODLINE, I would rather see people refer to Genetics and Families.

Edited March 1, 200916 yr by renee

I know what you are saying renee, but I disagree about your determination of when you can count as your own bloodline. If someone decides to breed multiple birds, and never show, can they never get their own bloodline? I do not believe that that level of showing determines whether you can say you have your own bloodline. I think the mixture who come up with determines bloodlines, and that is it.

I know what you are saying renee, but I disagree about your determination of when you can count as your own bloodline. If someone decides to breed multiple birds, and never show, can they never get their own bloodline? I do not believe that that level of showing determines whether you can say you have your own bloodline. I think the mixture who come up with determines bloodlines, and that is it.

 

I don't think I mentioned showing, did I? :budgiedance: Just leg rings.

 

But now you've brought it up, I don't think Bloodlines are particularly relevant to the non-showing breeder. I mean a 'bloodline' becomes a commodity once that breeder has something to show for his/her breeding program. The way we determine that is how well they do on the show bench, be that at the local Club level or at Nationals.

 

It's the same way with the ANBC Standard, it only becomes relevant if you are breeding to it NOT if your goal is to breed "pretty" budgies.

 

And yes, I think we're on the same page in so far as 4 years into breeding I would say you have your own distinct bloodline, irrespective if you're showing or not.

 

But back to showing, if I do well with one of my own bred birds I would describe it as "a bird I bred" and if someone would press me for details I'd say yes the forefathers came from this or that stud.

 

But as for Bloodline ... I think it's a highly contentious term and I am much happier, as I said before, referring to birds as being of such and such FAMILY or possessing someone's GENETICS.

i don't know but how do you get were only bloodline to sart with

A few people on this thread are explaining how it works shannon, take a read.

I would have to clarify what lines are. I believe that if you have an Armstrong bird than it would have certain features that could be identified as an Armstrong bird. Such as Directional Feathering and blow. If you paired two Armstrong birds that were compatible togeather than it would be resonable to assume that the result would still have those features as an Armstrong bird but would have your ring on it. ou would then say it was an Armstrong bird but correctly show it as yours.

 

As Novices, we realy don't have a bird that could be identified as a Wells or a Morgan and that we are trying to create a feature that one day would be identified as ours.. :budgiedance: That would be a nice feeling, but untill then I have other people's lines and am proud of it.

Is Gary Armstrong in the open class?

Is Gary Armstrong in the open class?

YES :budgiedance:

okay so A bird he does not need or want (does not have the desired features) would be a good bird for a novice?

I would have to clarify what lines are. I believe that if you have an Armstrong bird than it would have certain features that could be identified as an Armstrong bird. Such as Directional Feathering and blow. If you paired two Armstrong birds that were compatible togeather than it would be resonable to assume that the result would still have those features as an Armstrong bird but would have your ring on it. ou would then say it was an Armstrong bird but correctly show it as yours.

 

As Novices, we realy don't have a bird that could be identified as a Wells or a Morgan and that we are trying to create a feature that one day would be identified as ours.. :budgiedance: That would be a nice feeling, but untill then I have other people's lines and am proud of it.

 

So when your birds have done well at shows I guess you take absolutely no credit whatsoever?

i guess so renee even know it is your bird you breed

i guess so renee even know it is your bird you breed

 

I disagree. I chose so and so's stud as my foundation and I paid for their birds, MY choice. I created conditions for them to live happily, I feed them, I attend to their health, I breed them.

 

I am not taking away from the benefits of buying top birds from winning studs, I am not saying that I am not eternally grateful for being given the opportunity of buying those birds in the first place.

 

All I am saying is that at the end of the day I take full responsibility and credit when they are happy, healthy birds with desirable features. :budgiedance:

If I bred one Gary Armstrong bird and one Stephen Elliot bird and the chicks were all magnificent. I would take all the credit for them at the shows.

i guess so renee even know it is your bird you breed

 

I disagree. I chose so and so's stud as my foundation and I paid for their birds, MY choice. I created conditions for them to live happily, I feed them, I attend to their health, I breed them.

 

I am not taking away from the benefits of buying top birds from winning studs, I am not saying that I am not eternally grateful for being given the opportunity of buying those birds in the first place.

 

All I am saying is that at the end of the day I take full responsibility and credit when they are happy, healthy birds with desirable features.

 

me to if i breed them it stood be my bloodline like renee i give my money and time and love to tham so it stood be my line :budgiedance:

Renee, Let me answer your question this way. When A nestfeather (bar head) I bred won Reserve Champion Nest Feather of Show I rang Gary up and told him that his chick had won the trophy.

 

I will take the credit for getting that chick from egg to bench but the back ground work on the parent birds were by Gary Armstrong. How can I take credit for that.

Edited March 1, 200916 yr by Daz

Renee, Let me answer your question this way. When A nestfeather (bar head) won Reserve Champion Nest Feather of Show I rang Gary up and told him that his chick had won the trophy.

 

I will take the credit for getting that chick from egg to bench but the back ground work on the parent birds were by Gary Armstrong. How can I take credit for that.

 

Well I have to agree with that. I too have approached breeders and let them know if one of my bird's comes from their stud. It's still my bird though.

 

It's just that I find the term bloodline so contentious.

 

On the MBC forum George made that valid point that there is a significant difference between a Collection of birds and a Stud. The characteristic of a stud being that you can identify a bird from a stud without having to check its ring, the features being so clearly recognizable....

 

More food for thought.

Edited March 1, 200916 yr by renee

Gerald Binks in the Challenge discribes a stud as a closely related group of animals with simalar features. If this is not the case then you have a flight of birds.

 

Renee if you breed a line of birds over many years and put the hard work to take them from the egg to the perch, you would probibly, rightfully call them your line.

But if you sold one does it then not become your line but the person that bought it?

Gerald Binks in the Challenge discribes a stud as a closely related group of animals with simalar features. If this is not the case then you have a flight of birds.

 

Renee if you breed a line of birds over many years and put the hard work to take them from the egg to the perch, you would probibly, rightfully call them your line.

But if you sold one does it then not become your line but the person that bought it?

 

But there's a significant difference between calling a bird your own and referring to its 'line' or stud as your own. As you rightly point out, it takes many years of line breeding to establish a stud.

 

If I sell a bird it is a bird I have sold. End of story. It is no longer my bird and I have no automatic say about its future.

 

Actually I wouldn't be at all surprised if the term BLOODLINE actually came out of the line breeding concept.

 

And as I mentioned earlier, I believe it takes at least 4 breeding season to establish a stud. But here's the rub, not everyone line breeds ....

 

Just for clarification purposes:

 

MY BIRD - is a bird I have bought or has my ring on it

A BIRD I'VE BRED - is self-explanatory

MY LINE - refers to 'family' or line breeding

 

I say as soon as you breed you are establishing your own 'Bloodline'. Although I believe it takes longer to estblish your own stud.

 

Anyway, that's how I see it.

Edited March 1, 200916 yr by renee

My view - I select the pairings, they are therefore my line, but they are decended from XXXXXX breeder. Its handy to know when seeking birds via Auctions to know where they are decended from.

 

I personally woudnt cross lines from differnet breeders like Daz has explained unless i knew there was a genetic connection.

 

I know several well known breeders who dont like there names being published as "bloodline xxxxx". Sometimes the poorer quality birds can be a reflection on the bloodline and not the breeder, when they could be many generations removed from the original breeder.

i will do that any way

say if i got a bird of you any pair it up with a bird of my (line) i will call you and let you no and you can get a baby of my (line) with your line

Edited March 1, 200916 yr by KAZ