I tried for ages to get this article on this website with no luck. It wouldn't read the table tags for some reason. So for anybody intested you'll have to follow this link.

 

http://doves.com.au/dkfactors.html

Edited December 18, 200816 yr by RIPbudgies

Good article. Very Helpful.

Very Informative

Really interesting

thank you , good read

Just what we needed

For someone that ticked no for breeding and no for show breeding and no for club you certainly know lots

Ripbudgies. Thank you ......

 

I can see that you are going to be a valuable asset to BBC

I am glad that you found the article interesting. Being done in colour codeing it makes it so easy to follow. Using correct nomenclature reduces confusion. I have plenty more interesting stuff for you guys but it will take time to find, sort and move from the other computer. I did start designing a website back in 2002 I think it was but never finished it. I might just try and pick up where I left off but I am lacking photos of birds so made need some help from you guys.

 

Now JimmyBanks and company I'll fill you in on my background just a tad. Correct I do not keep, breed, nor show budgies at this time. I also do not belong to any clubs. So here is some background.

 

I bred and exhibited budgies for twenty years. Represented WA in the nationals with Clearwings. The Black Eyes if I remember correctly got pipped at the post in the state selection. The Nationals was never really a goal for me anyhow.

 

I was and still am a great big sponge where genetics are concerned. I have read the book about the discovery of the double helix by Watson and Crick and other like material and watch countelss documentaries on the subject. I just love Science. As I mentioned is another post I did research with mice regarding pied inheritence. I also have a fascination with horse genetics. You think budgies have some modifiers! You should see the pied types in horses!!

 

I was a breeder of rares and I did a great deal of research with the varieties and was in constant contact with people such as Inte Onsman, Ken Yorke, Ghalib Al Nassar, Ken Gray to name a few. I have pictures of some of my birds in Terry Martin's book "A Guide to Colour Mutations & Genetics in Parrots".

 

I kept every variety mostly for research but I did have the show stock as well. I made it a point to keep Olives and Mauves as they are useful when breeding certain varieties, Violets in particular. I had quite a stock of Dutch Pieds also known as Continental Clearflights. I was one of a few breeders still breeding the Australian Goldenface to the show standard. I also kept some extremely rare varieties such as the Dark Eyed Clear and Brownwing.

 

I also had in my possesion and was the only one in the state at the time that had them Saddlebacks, Fadeds and Darkwings all of which were obtained from Ken Yorke in NSW. Also had a mutation appear in my aviary that when I reseached it I concluded it was the same as one sighted by Cyril Rogers, namely the Self Coloured. Mortality rate was around 90%. Not a single bird of this mutation left my aviary because of this problem. In fact it was too damn hard to maintain so I let it die out.

 

Anyway I guess that is a little bit of background. Any questions feel free to ask me.

wow. You have already been of great help in the forum and I am sure we will all benefit greatly from your knowledge.

It's great you are here sharing your knowledge. I am like as sponge waiting to soak up some new interesting info...genentics for me being mostly working genetics with my show budgies and what I am breeding and acchieving and what we teach ourselves here on BBC.

I saw quite a few saddlebacks in a cage at Birdworld a few years back and they are the only ones I have seen. I had a mystery bird once that was diagnosed by a show breeder as a brownwing. That breeder being a breeder as well of the golden faces you also talk of.

I would like to know the difference between Australia yellowfaces and not ?

Clearwings still seem to be hard to get right. Those that are exhibiting them here seem to lose size for clearer wing markings ( budgies are very very small ) and other clearwings with size border on looking more like greywings.

Edited December 19, 200816 yr by KAZ

Kaz, the problem with Clearwings is not the bird itself it is the perception and tunnel vision of a show standard. Okay standards we need as there must be something to strive for, but when they are written without full consultation of breeders and/or looking back through history. Also their are different names given to the same mutations in different parts of the world. In fact the planet can be divided into three separate areas. Europe, USA and Australia-New Zealand. These zones especially Australia was dictated by quarantine laws. What we had was that. No new stuff allowed into the country. Just before giving up the budgies I was in consultation with Ken Gray in regards to getting hold of some Slates as we don't have them here. We do however have a Recessive Grey mutation and they don't.

 

Clearwings when first mutated DID NOT have pure yellow or white wings. It is written for posterity that a majority of the birds did indeed have faint grey markings varying intensity. Now if you breed with a single focus in mind as I did with those mice you will acheive a goal. i.e. pair Clearwing to Clearwing and with each generation select only for clarity of wing and you will get those clean wings. But over the past 60 years what has been forgotton here in Australia was what the mutation originally looked like. In the UK the standard is written to cater for the original mutation and Australian breeders would consistently call them Greywings.

 

Belgium Blue Cattle without a doubt will show you what happens when a particlar trait is selected for over many, many generations. Be warned these cattle are not to every ones taste but it is an eye opener. Click on the link below for this little National Geographic snippet on you tube.

 

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=Nmkj5gq1cQU&...feature=related

Edited December 19, 200816 yr by RIPbudgies

I hear that clearwings in the UK are so very different to what we see as clearwings here. Would you have any photos of the differences in clearwings ?

I have put clearwing breeding into the "too hard" basket for myself for now as I have preference for the greywing and I am trying to work out the breeding for those, having newly purchased my greywing breeding stock just a few weeks ago at auction. Friends and fellow club members are breeding clearwings as we seem deficient in some of the rarer breeds when it comes to Nationals selections time.

Its a pity that worldwide there isnt a set of standards that we all strive for and remains the same or equal. Must be really hard for the worldwide judges that come over to judge at the nationals for us.

I am really interested in the anthracite. I was talking recently with Stephen Fowler who wrote this article on Feather Dusters http://forums.budgiebreeders.asn.au/index....feather+dusters and he was saying he breeds anthracites and is writing a series of articles on how that is progressing. Hopefully we can soon see the article in print.

I am so glad you are here. I am like as sponge waiting to soak up some new interesting info...genentics for me being mostly working genetics with my show budgies and what I am breeding and acchieving and what we teach ourselves here on BBC.

I saw quite a few saddlebacks in a cage at Birdworld a few years back and they are the only ones I have seen. I had a mystery bird once that was diagnosed by a show breeder as a brownwing. That breeder being a breeder as well of the golden faces you also talk of.

I would like to know the difference between Australia yellowfaces and not ?

Clearwings still seem to be hard to get right. Those that are exhibiting them here seem to lose size for clearer wing markings ( budgies are very very small ) and other clearwings with size border on looking more like greywings.

 

It is possible those Saddlebacks at Birdworld are decendants of the stock I had sent over from NSW some years ago as I was the first one in WA to bring them in along with the Faded and the Darkwing.

 

Brownwings are easy to identify. They have a deep plum eye (looks red when born) and the iris ring is there but not as in a normal. The brown markings are more like grey-brown in colour.

 

Goldenfaces (GF) are the same as Australian Yellowface. It is easier when working out pairings to referto them as GF as there are two other mutant type on Yellowface. In Australia we have only two type here. 1. The English Yellowface or Yellowface Mutant II or as people here seem to prefer YF2 and 2. The Goldenface. In the UK they have all three so if you lot get confused with what you got now what would ya all do with the three types.

 

Now here is a revelation for you all. A Yellowface bird is not a blue bird with a yellowface. It is a Green bird with a mutated gene. This gene controls psittacine pigment production in combination with genes for Melanin production and the genes which control feather structure. In a Yellowface bird the Structure of the feather does not change and nor does the production of the Melanin. What does change is the amout of Psittacine pigment produced. When the gene is made completely non functional the result is a Blue bird. If the gene is partially functional some Yellow pigment will be produced. The amount of yellow pigment production depends on the type of Yellowface involved and if the bird carries one or two YF genes.

I hear that clearwings in the UK are so very different to what we see as clearwings here. Would you have any photos of the differences in clearwings ?

I have put clearwing breeding into the "too hard" basket for myself for now as I have preference for the greywing and I am trying to work out the breeding for those, having newly purchased my greywing breeding stock just a few weeks ago at auction. Friends and fellow club members are breeding clearwings as we seem deficient in some of the rarer breeds when it comes to Nationals selections time.

Its a pity that worldwide there isnt a set of standards that we all strive for and remains the same or equal. Must be really hard for the worldwide judges that come over to judge at the nationals for us.

I am really interested in the anthracite. I was talking recently with Stephen Fowler who wrote this article on Feather Dusters http://forums.budgiebreeders.asn.au/index....feather+dusters and he was saying he breeds anthracites and is writing a series of articles on how that is progressing. Hopefully we can soon see the article in print.

 

I really hope you have indeed got Greywings. From my past experience though I have seem many a "Dirty Clearwing" passed off as a Greywing. Even Dilutes passed off as Greywings. This series of alles are not really that hard to understand at all. I had the same proplem back in the 80's. Got told different things. Birds don't match. So I stopped listening to them and sought out those people who know their stuff. Did research. Came to my own conclusions and boy did I cope a battering. But like a dog with a bone I wasn't easily persuaded to back down. I tried to but the tunnel vision thing it is a strong enemy. Not to mention ingnorance and I think with some people pride that after 20+ years breeding some upstart with half a brain comes along and bluntly tells them their wrong. And I have back up from the likes of Ghalib and Ken Gray. I even sent and email to Eric Peak once told him he painted his Fallow on the chart the wrong colour cere. Well that went down like the preverbal lead balloon.

 

I am afraid the show side of things will always short of the rarer mutations. They are not really geared up for them. They are to hard, lack of good, correct information. As a rare breeder you are looked down on. I know I've been there. When I showed at a club show it was nothing for me to take 10 -20 to a show. Four clubs in a months. At major show I would easy put in 40 birds.

 

I do believe at one point the World Budgerigar Organisation put a proposal on the table but I think because of the radical differences between the UK and Australian Standards I think the idea was shelved. I could be wrong I have been out of the game for awhile. As for the International judges it is not that hard. Basically most of the standards for the mutations is pretty much the same. The main points of a show budgie is conformation and type. Individual mutation characteristics play a small part in judging.

 

I was aware of the Anthracite when the mutation first came onto the scene but I don't remember Stephen Fowler's name. At this time I was also conversing with Didier Mervilde regards the Black Faces and their was a Recessive Ino floating around too, in the UK I think.

 

I read his article on feathers dusters I bred a few and kept detailed records of them and I also sourced them from other breeders so I had maximum numbers to research. He mentions the bird moulting. I would have to disagree with this. I found that these birds just don't moult. They seem to stay in this juvenile stage till the day they die. I did notice however though the longer they live the more they need a diet sufficient to feed the feathers which contiually grow. Show a feather become weak which these do because after they are not a mature feather and lack the substance and structure of a mature bird and are easily damaged. I found lots of feathers in the cages of feather dusters that had lived a fair age none of the feathers had been ejected from the folicle, they were broken at varying lengths. If you look at the barring on the top of the head you will see it just does not go away. I actually had a line of Clearwings that carried the Feather Duster gene and I could always predict which nest would produce them. You can keep track of this gene like any other.

RIPBudgies, I like Kaz would like to welcome you to the forum. I believe that you and I will have many good discussions on the mutations and show standards. I have, in the last year decided to help the continuation of the Dark Eyed clear, a very bueatiful and miss understood bird.

 

I am very glad that you are on this forum.

Aw shucks Daz, ya made me blush

 

I enjoyed breeding my Dark Eyed Clears. I had them in Goldenface also, as at least 3/4 of my Danish were Goldenface and at least 1/2 were either Mauve or Olive. I just love a good Olive.

 

The only thing I was sorry about when I gave up the birds was the fact that my pedigrees were so long and so impeccably kept that not a bird left this place that had any surprises I knew what every bird was. My Goldenfaces which what started me in the very first place had pedigrees going back to the 70's. A lot of hard work and research disappeared over night.

 

I do miss them. I don't miss the showing so much. I don't really miss the people either. Only one remained a true friend and another I see from time to time as she lives a suburb away. I miss the research, theorizing and then proving like when Ken Yorke and I theorised that the Darwing factor on a Normal series bird would not show up. Took 5 years to breed the bird but I proved it. A normal looking Light Green that was a Darkwing(df) and the Darkwing could not be seen.

Edited December 19, 200816 yr by RIPbudgies

I've been talking with a friend who is into pigeon breeding, he has found the same thing with people over there... it must be something to do with birds If its been going on for years it must be right... even if the science proves otherwise... I'm not sure what it is... I really enjoy reading your posts, I don't always fully understand but that's more about me being an idiot rather than your writing Generally I don't say much in these kinds of threads, because I don't have the knowledge to join in but I do read them again and again and again. I look forward to reading many more with you and Daz having discussions on different genetics and other topics. Keep it up.

Thanks for you kind words JimmyBanks. I have found this forum to be very welcoming. I will try and find more stuff to put up but I did get rid of a lot. Deleted pretty much all my photos of the computer so only ones left are on my website and what I took with the old SLR.

 

I too have bred pigeons and had them here up to the end of last year. I was partnership in a business releasing white ones for the funeral and wedding industries. I also use to breed them when I lived in Whyalla, SA for eating :thankyou: . I just know some of you are squirming with that revelation.

My only friend left out of budgies in fact finally had enough a few years ago and got out and moved into pigeons. He breeds Magpies mostly.

:thankyou: magpies are nice. when I first heard people talking about magpies I was like, They arn't pigeons!!!!

 

when I go to Malaysia in feb I'm hoping to find a place that sells fried pigeons. :hi: