I know these two mutations are considered two separate ones, but I sometimes wonder. And also I wonder how you can tell for sure if you have one or the other. The Clear Flight has wing & tail flight feathers White or Yellow depending whether Blue or Green series, they can also have a small amount of Pied on their upper chest & the patch on their head. Maybe these are considered faults in showing.

 

In my experience with lots of types of birds which have Pied marking I have noticed often, it’s the tail & flight feathers that become Pied first & if you select for Pied & pair Pied to Pied the Pied area will become more & more dominant.

 

I just read on one British site on the net, that you can have combinations or all three Pied Types …Clear Flight, Dominant & Recessive in the one bird. Some one advised me on here that you couldn’t have Dominant & Recessive in the one bird as they are on the same allele, but it seems this is wrong. Maybe this is why I am wondering. As I have had what look like Clear Flights from full body Dominant Pieds & what looked like Dominant Pieds from what I thought were Clear Flights. What are your thoughts on this?

the DEC bird is a dominant and recessive pied genes together so you can. Any chance you know what thread that comment was made in?

 

I'm still with the idea that the Clearflight pied is also the dutch dominant pied under a different name. I believe that those that state they have a clearflight and dominant pied bird are simply reading the body markings incorrectly and only have a dominant (as in Australian dominant or banded pied) that has lost all markings on the wings.

the DEC bird is a dominant and recessive pied genes together so you can. Any chance you know what thread that comment was made in?

 

Sorry Nerwen too many months ago, can't remember.

 

I have what I thought was a Dominant Pied [hardly any colour body all pied] that I mated to a normal Sky Blue hen, in the first batch, all six young were Pied so I thought Dom...but on the next batch it's had what looks like a Clear Flight & some Normals [non Pied young].

 

How do you do the seperate quotes like others do, I can't seem to work out how to do that.

Edited August 7, 200718 yr by Nerwen
put in code

with the new system you can highlight the words you want in quotes and hit the speech bubble icon. they will put in the quote tags for you.

 

I guess to work out that pied you need to do a few test breeds, such as the hen to a recessive pied to make sure she isn't split.

I guess to work out that pied you need to do a few test breeds, such as the hen to a recessive pied to make sure she isn't split.

 

 

Yes I guess your right, so many are split for Recessive these days, both could be that way.

Edited August 7, 200718 yr by Norm

My Merlin is an example of a Dominant Pied he has a big white head spot, I have only just recently heard about the small white spot on the back of the head indicating split to recessive. I know this is true in tiels but don't have any concrete evidence about budgies quite yet.

Of course you can have a Dominant and recessive genes in the same bird. A dominant will be split for recessive

 

If you pair a Clearflight to a recessive you get a Clear Flight/recessive.

Pair a Clearflight/recessive to a recessive and you get 25% DEC

I have only just recently heard about the small white spot on the back of the head indicating split to recessive. I know this is true in tiels but don't have any concrete evidence about budgies quite yet.

 

QUOTE ............Breeding Quality Recessive Pieds....by Ghalib Al-Nasser

In some cases those Normal/Recessive Pieds "splits for convenience" show a small clear spot on the back of the head.

http://www.budgerigars.co.uk/specialist/pieds/recpied.html

 

Quote....H&D BUDGERIGAR & CAGE BIRD SOCIETY INC

....In the passed five years several younsters were bred with a small headspot suggesting they are split for recessive pied.

Edited August 8, 200718 yr by **KAZ**

Does that mean that any bird that looks normal but has the spot ont he back of the head is going to be split to pied?

Does that mean that any bird that looks normal but has the spot on the back of the head is going to be split to pied?

In the cases I have experienced, chicks I have had born that are split recessive pied have the tiny spot. I also have an adult show type in the flights...normal but split recessive which has the same small spot. I dont think they all get the tiny spot but a lot of them do.

Where people get confused is any bird they see that is normal and has a spot....they are automatically saying it is a dominant pied bird. It may well be it is actually a normal split for danish/recessive pied.

My idea is that both the Dominant & Recessive pied can have the clear spot on the head. As the Dominant can’t be split, if it has a white patch on it’s head I think that that means it is already a Dominant Pied, even though that is the only clear mark it has.

My idea is that both the Dominant & Recessive pied can have the clear spot on the head. As the Dominant can’t be split, if it has a white patch on it’s head I think that that means it is already a Dominant Pied, even though that is the only clear mark it has.

 

YES the difference is the size of the spot. Split recessive spot is tiny. Dominant pied spot is more of a large patch.

Thanks you for the information Kaz it is the first time I saw it.

As for not being both they can be both as Daz noted dominant carrying the recessive pied gene. So you can bred 2 dominant pieds and get a recessive pied.

 

Here is a picture of Merlin's spot on the back of his head

Edited August 8, 200718 yr by Elly

Thanks you for the information Kaz it is the first time I saw it.

As for not being both they can be both as Daz noted dominant carrying the recessive pied gene. So you can bred 2 dominant pieds and get a recessive pied.

 

Here is a picture of Merlin's spot on the back of his head

Merlins spot or patch is large and nothing like the spot of a recessive pied split

here is an article I found about dominant pieds too for your information

Dominant Pied Article Click Here

 

Merlin's brother and sister also had the spot but not as large as Merlin's that is what attracted me to him

Hey Elly I have 4 Rec split birds now with the spot, 3 came from Rec pied breeders that ONLY breed rec pieds and have done for 20+ years so you cant get much more concrete than that?? OR does it need to come from somebody with a PHD in budgie genetics to believe it??I also have a hen with quite a large spot which I thought to be Dom pied BUT I found out her breeder the other day and its more likely she is Rec pied split- which has really buggered up my records!! I remember the first time I said that theory about rec pieds on here and got bagged for it but everyone is believing it now so I dont look like a nitwit anymore heres a picture of 2 splits- the spot isnt showing up well as they are both fluffed!! But you can just see it to understand it

pie I really PHD in budgies would really help me out there seriously I didn't hear anyone here have any experiences and now that they have their own experiences I believe it. So you think Merlin is dominant or split to recessive :mellow:

In my opinion Elly, your Merlin is definitely a Dominant Pied.

 

 

 

I probably wasn’t too clear in my first post, what I was meaning about having a Dominant, Clearflight, Recessive Pied… I meant visual in the one bird not split for Recessive, I know they all can be split for Recessive. The problem would be in how to prove it…as the male’s cere may not stay pink & they may get iris rings in the eyes.

 

Also the bird I mentioned in the first post that was paired to a Sky Blue hen, what I didn’t state clearly was that I thought he was a DF Dominant, as he looked like a Recessive Pied with hardly any body colour except on his rump, but had Dominant eye rings. And in his first batch he had all heavily Pied young like himself, confirming to me that he must be DF, but then in the next batch he had some non Pied birds & birds that look like Clearflights, so in that case he can’t be DF as they get all Dominant Pied young when paired to a Normal, don’t they? I will have to wait till the young get older & see if they or any get iris rings.

 

Another hen I had, now departed, looked like a Clearflight, but when paired with a Cinnamon Grey Green cock [not Pied] she produced Dominant Pied chicks [some heavily Pied] & one of the hens that looked like a Clearflight, later paired with an Opaline Sky Blue/Recessive Pied produced a DEC. Showing that definitely she had Clearflight & at least split for Recessive.

 

I have another pair of heavily marked Pieds, paired together, the cock is a Dominant & the hen I think is Recessive, but I should have checked her iris rings, but haven’t yet. In their first batch they produced three male chicks [now mature] all are Cinnamons [as are both parents] all have head spots, some large others very small & one Heavily Pied chick. Their next batch they had four Pieds, which I’m pretty sure, are Recessive, as they had the plum eyes when young. That isn’t a mystery I guess as the cock is probably split Recessive, but the size of the head spots on the first batch differ from large to small, I suppose it’s possible that some could be Dominant & others split for Recessive. All the Pieds from this pair look like Recessive as they have hardly any Body colour, just almost pure Yellow or White. Even though they all look like Recessives, with a Dominant father some should be Dominants.

I see what you mean now, genetic is so much fun but confusing at time.

Here is a picture of Merlin's spot on the back of his head

 

I have a dark green normal with a (yellow) spot about the exact same size and placement as Merlin's. He's got iris rings, and normal blue-grey feet. Yet ALL my other pieds are definitely recessive (no iris ring, pink feet). I cannot recall ever having a dominant pied in the flock at all.

 

So I guess it's possible he's a "throw back" (it'd have to be back over 20 years thou) ??

 

What would be the best pairing for him to determine whether or not he's true dominant? He's mother, from memory, was a pied (recessive). Not certain about the father (aviary breeding), I think he was an olive or dark green normal.

 

Cheers,

KathyW.

Here is a picture of Merlin's spot on the back of his head

 

I have a dark green normal with a (yellow) spot about the exact same size and placement as Merlin's. He's got iris rings, and normal blue-grey feet. Yet ALL my other pieds are definitely recessive (no iris ring, pink feet). I cannot recall ever having a dominant pied in the flock at all.

 

So I guess it's possible he's a "throw back" (it'd have to be back over 20 years thou) ??

 

What would be the best pairing for him to determine whether or not he's true dominant? He's mother, from memory, was a pied (recessive). Not certain about the father (aviary breeding), I think he was an olive or dark green normal.

 

Cheers,

KathyW.

KathyW is it possibly the mother of yours was a DF Dominant pied ? As quite a few df dom pieds look like recessives ?

KathyW is it possibly the mother of yours was a DF Dominant pied ? As quite a few df dom pieds look like recessives ?

 

I don't think so, but that was 3 years and a house move ago. If it's the hen I'm thinking of, now retired from breeding and a bit long-in-the-beak, she's got no iris rings and her feet are pink.

 

KathyW.

KathyW is it possibly the mother of yours was a DF Dominant pied ? As quite a few df dom pieds look like recessives ?

 

I don't think so, but that was 3 years and a house move ago. If it's the hen I'm thinking of, now retired from breeding and a bit long-in-the-beak, she's got no iris rings and her feet are pink.

 

KathyW.

A number of DF dom pieds have an iris rings on one eye and none on the other. I assumed some of mine were recessives until I was asked to check BOTH EYES

Edited August 9, 200718 yr by **KAZ**

If you have a dominant pied like Merlin it can't be a throw back because it is a dominant gene and is not hidden like the recessive pied. Since you are uncertain of the father it would have to have been a dominant pied that produce him.

 

You could pair him with another bird that is split to recessive pied and you will have a 25% chance of recessives OR you could pair him with another recessive and see if you get recessive pied babies.

 

As Kaz said I have seen several birds on these boards SWORE up and down they had to be dominant but only turned to be recessive.