I'm a bit thrown off by the wording here, but I'm gathering that you mean getting an outstanding show bird is worth breeding a feather duster every now and then?

 

Yes that is correct. When the top birds sell for thousands of dollars, it is an acceptible risk. It happens in the "Fancy" (Show Budgerigar World)

 

As far as show birds and pet birds being two different worlds? That is 100% absolutely and positively a selfish human perspective.

 

Yes it is two different worlds. You would really be horrified as to the difference if you knew what goes on in both.

 

 

One of the biggest problems with that is that you might not get a feather duster from the first clutch. Maybe not from the second. You might not get a feather duster from this budgie at all! Some other breeder who buys one of the chicks from this clutch might end up with a feather duster. And hey, he won't know if it has the gene so he has to breed it to find out too... ick. Why even risk it?

 

Reminds me of the views of a man that should have died in a bunker in 1945. His view was to cleans the population of people with disabilities. Also if you were jewish or black or gay. Why should you have the right to children if your brother or sister was handicaped, if your parents or ralitives were not of the correct race or colour.

 

Your comment could easily be put to every one on this forum that wishes to breed thier birds. They would need to have the back ground of there birds back at least for 7 years or more. I have heard of throw backs occuring after 17 generations.

 

I don't mean to offend anyone, but I can't help but ask questions and give my opinion sometimes.

 

Terri I don't have any problems with you giving your opinion. It is most welcome. I am not offended by it because I understand where you are coming from.

As far as show birds and pet birds being two different worlds? That is 100% absolutely and positively a selfish human perspective.

 

Yes it is two different worlds. You would really be horrified as to the difference if you knew what goes on in both.

 

Now i'm curious, how could it be that massively different keeping and breeding show birds to pet birds?

This is what you are trying to Strive for. Compaired to this.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a26/darrylw/DSCN5189.jpg

 

I love my guys :ausb:

 

The process to achieve this standard takes years of dedicated breeding. Strick Culling and a high level of knowledge of neutrician and genetics.

 

Training of the chicks at a young age for the Show Cages.

 

Breeding of pet budgies is to put two birds or more togeather in an enviroment with a nest box, adiquate feed and watch them breed.

 

At this level.

You have to manage the breeding. Restricted Clutch numbers.

Hi Protein feed. Balanced nuetrician. Vitamins, minerals suppliments.

 

Some pairs do not even raise their own chicks. It is left for foster pairs to do this.

 

There is a big diffence. Especially in cost.

Edited October 30, 200618 yr by daz

The difference is all in how they're treated. In the end, they're the same type of bird. People change the pricetag, the looks, the genetics (unfortunately).

 

And for the record, breeding pet budgies should NOT just be putting any two birds together and giving them a nest box. That's called irresponsible breeding.

 

And yes, I realize most breeders would have to trace their birds several years to get an idea about problems but honestly, if people would start NOW it would make it easier in the future. On top of that, you don't even have to dig for your info, you now KNOW that one of your budgies could possibly carry the feather duster gene (or what have you) and still you choose to breed with this bird.

 

I'm not sure if I can stick around a place where even a moderator, someone who is supposed to be respected, only cares about eventually breeding thousand dollar budgies. No one cares if that thousand dollar budgie lives five years or ten...it's horrid.

I hope that he is not a feather duster and that you will continue to update us about him.

 

http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v24/i1/budgie.asp

 

What I've read indicates that feather dusters are caused by a recessive gene. If that is the case, the parents of the babies would both be carrying it. If it works the same as other recessive mutations - 25% of their offspring would be feather dusters, 50% would be carrying the gene and 25% would not be. That would indicate that the baby that is not a feather duster has a 66.6% chance of having the gene and a 33.3% chance of not having it, a one in three chance. If he did inherit it then he would have a 50% chance of passing it on to each of his offspring. Those that inherit it would then have a 50% chance of passing it to their offspring and so on. If they were never paired to another bird that carrys the gene.. then no feather dusters.. but as the number of birds carrying the gene grows so does the potential for pairing two birds that both carry the gene. In the future it may become a more prevalent issue that breeders face.

bea thers is a massive difference in the planning pairing ect it takes years to start to understand the expectaions and trying to breed out a fault or inrease spots ect as for the cost i dont even want to consider that

I find it baffling that breeders would bust their hump to breed out a cosmetic fault but let things like feather dusters keep going just in case they get a nice looking bird later on.

 

I really, really, really need to shut up now.

One of the saddest part about this whole post and I KNOW they do it in dog, cat breeding and more is the culling of the innocent. If it doesn't met standard OR it is a runt then it is culled aka killed. Bring a life into the world and then killing it because it is not what WE humans desire.

If it doesn't met standard OR it is a runt then it is culled aka killed

 

i take that very personally i have never never never killed a healthy bird if i use the word culled it means it is removed from my breeding programme or from the youngsters i am keeping and they are sold or given away mainly as pets if i think they are unsuitable for pets i will keep them in my retirment flights

didn't mean it toward you hath by any means or any of the breeders. It is a fact that it happens though (not saying you or anyone you know does)

 

I apologize to you and all.

 

Being in a different country cull can have different meaning http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book...tionary&va=cull

 

remove is one and to be removed by killing is another.

Edited October 30, 200618 yr by lovey

I wish to agree with Lovey, sadly it does happen in all forms of breeding. In the pursuit of the perfect cat, dog or bird mistakes happen. I have a dog who is the result of bad breeding. The "breeder" I got him from was so keen to cash in on the designer small dog market, that she did not care for the welfare of the offspring. As a result the pup that I adopted (and all his siblings) were born with a brain stem dysfunction which resulted in the pups having gross motor and coordination problems. And she continued to try to breed from these dogs!

Now I am not saying all breeders do this, I know there are many, many caring breeders out there. But the ones that are motivated by the almighty $ are the worry. And I am sure there are none here on this board.

The breeder where I got my dog from has now been shut down and prosecuted, although she has now opened a pet shop!!

of course it goes on i dont condone it but to post it after a breeder post a responce makes it look like that person is killing his/her birds and i am getting a little peeved about the amount of crud thats posted about us in all parts of life people do things that are not nice but to keep taring all people with the same brush when some people actually do care really offends me

again I am sorry but I was only responding to what was posted about what breeders do

And for the record, breeding pet budgies should NOT just be putting any two birds together and giving them a nest box. That's called irresponsible breeding.

 

I totally agree and it happens but you will find it hard to see this in Show Breeders. As hath stated it takes a lot of work to breed show birds.

 

And yes, I realize most breeders would have to trace their birds several years to get an idea about problems but honestly, if people would start NOW it would make it easier in the future. On top of that, you don't even have to dig for your info, you now KNOW that one of your budgies could possibly carry the feather duster gene (or what have you) and still you choose to breed with this bird.

 

Yes I choose to breed with her. If she throws a feather duster. So be it. I'll address genetic in a minute.

 

I'm not sure if I can stick around a place where even a moderator, someone who is supposed to be respected, only cares about eventually breeding thousand dollar budgies. No one cares if that thousand dollar budgie lives five years or ten...it's horrid.

 

Eterri this site was set up by a Show Budgie Breeder for Breeding Show Budgies. It is backed by a Show Budgie Club. We speak of Breeding Budgies and how to assist people in the best way we can. Some of us would like to discuss this matter at a higher level than Befer the budgie. .

I would love to get involve with discussing the discissions on pairing and genetic improvements with knowledgable people like Hath. You seem to have some type of desire to stop the breeding of Budgerigars due to ill informed information on health, longertitivy and well being.

 

I joined this forum to learn how to look after a pet budgerigar. Nerwen taught me genetics and Hath and others started me on the journey in to the show world and I thank them very much. If you think I am going to stand back and let you publically have a go at my integrity, Girl you have another thing coming.

 

 

I hope that he is not a feather duster and that you will continue to update us about him.

 

http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v24/i1/budgie.asp

 

What I've read indicates that feather dusters are caused by a recessive gene. If that is the case, the parents of the babies would both be carrying it. If it works the same as other recessive mutations - 25% of their offspring would be feather dusters, 50% would be carrying the gene and 25% would not be. That would indicate that the baby that is not a feather duster has a 66.6% chance of having the gene and a 33.3% chance of not having it, a one in three chance. If he did inherit it then he would have a 50% chance of passing it on to each of his offspring. Those that inherit it would then have a 50% chance of passing it to their offspring and so on. If they were never paired to another bird that carrys the gene.. then no feather dusters.. but as the number of birds carrying the gene grows so does the potential for pairing two birds that both carry the gene. In the future it may become a more prevalent issue that breeders face.

 

Hi Hurdy, Remember that the only way to keep the % of genes is to restrengthen it. The ofspring of two animals in theory takes 50% for the male and 50% from the female. If breed to another animal their offspring ends up with 25% of the grandparent and so on. This is why breeders line breed to strengthen particular genes. What percentage my hen has is unknow. Now remember that this is theory (the perfect world) the hen may not have carried that gene (real world outcome).

 

didn't mean it toward you hath by any means or any of the breeders. It is a fact that it happens though (not saying you or anyone you know does)

 

I apologize to you and all.

 

Being in a different country cull can have different meaning http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book...tionary&va=cull

 

remove is one and to be removed by killing is another.

 

In Australia it occurs but like Hath I am against it. Culling does mean to removed it but as Hath put it. I will be giving it away not selling.

Eterri this site was set up by a Show Budgie Breeder for Breeding Show Budgies. It is backed by a Show Budgie Club. We speak of Breeding Budgies and how to assist people in the best way we can. Some of us would like to discuss this matter at a higher level than Befer the budgie. .

I would love to get involve with discussing the discissions on pairing and genetic improvements with knowledgable people like Hath. You seem to have some type of desire to stop the breeding of Budgerigars due to ill informed information on health, longertitivy and well being.

If this was a forum that mainly discussed breeding and showing i would not be here, i almost didn't join when i first found it because i thought "wait, i'm after pet advice not breeding advice" but then i stopped, looked and realised only a small section was about breeding and the larger portion is about pets. It's not fair to say that because the forum was set up by a breeder about breeding that nobody here can be against it, and not sure what the "ill informed information on health, longevity and well being" is but i'm with Terri on this, she's brought up excellent points and i don't think you should be having a dig at her for being anti-breeding on a "Show Budgie Club forum".

"ill informed information on health, longevity and well being"

to say that breeding show budgies reduce there life span is totally incorrect.

 

No one cares if that thousand dollar budgie lives five years or ten...it's horrid.

Wrong information! If I paid $1000 for a bird I would want it to live as long as possible.

 

i don't think you should be having a dig at her for being anti-breeding on a "Show Budgie Club forum".

If i came on to a forum about cooking roasts and said that everyone is resesponcible for eating meat, I would expect a back lash. That hasn't occured here.

 

Terri I don't have any problems with you giving your opinion. It is most welcome. I am not offended by it because I understand where you are coming from.

 

I have been my polite supportive way. but when some one has a go at me.

 

a moderator, someone who is supposed to be respected, only cares about eventually breeding thousand dollar budgies.

 

I am going to defend myself.

 

This site is 60% pet budgies, 25% breeding pet budies, 10% Horses and other things and 5% Show Budgies.

i don't think you should be having a dig at her for being anti-breeding on a "Show Budgie Club forum".

 

so its alrite for her and others to have a go but because we breed show birds we have to be quite and not defend our selves dont think so bea sorry

That's the thing, I am NOT anti-breeding. I am for breeding responsibly. I don't care if you're breeding "show budgies" or "pet budgies" or whatever. The bottom line with me, is that the birds are appreciated and treated fairly. I also have a lot of feelings tied into careless breeding after watching two birds die as a result of it. Of course I'm going to be against that type of breeding. And the attitude represented here (that getting a $1000 budgie is more important than safe-guarding bloodlines from the feather duster gene) is EXACTLY why we have such an enormous problem with very poorly bred birds.

 

How on earth can you say that you care about health and longevity and THEN go on to say that you're breeding a bird that could likely produce feather dusters and/or offspring that can produce them as well? How can you tell me that health and longevity is your biggest concern when you flat out said (for all to see) that if it happens, so be it? How can you call this responsible when you, yourself, have said that getting feather dusters is worth the risk if you end up with an "outstanding bird on the show bench?"

 

How is this not selfish?

 

When I came here (shortly before you were here, Daz), yeah I was met with a lot of opposiing views. However, I was told that this was a place for pet owners and breeders alike! I am not against responsible breeding. I am not against showing budgies. Obviously, I'm not against having them as pets! What bothers me is that this board has slowly but surely begun to develop this fine line between those who breed and those who don't. Standards are different, ideas are different... you know what's the same? The bird is exactly the same. The ones your aviaries are the same types as you have in your living rooms. Those aviary birds deserve everything we'd give any other budgie. I don't care if they're for show or breeding or pets. They are BUDGIES. This is a budgie forum. What brings us together (I thought) was supposed be the love of budgies!

 

Lately, this site has been geared toward breeding quite a bit and that's fine and that's understandable. After all, it's in the name at the top of the screen. But it saddens me that other things are being put on the back burner. There used to be a very strong outcry here for breeders to be more responsible. And I'm not talking about just ME, but other people would go so far out of their way to put their wing around a new would-be breeder and spell out just how much work it can be. Now? We say go right ahead! Breed brother to sister! Sometimes it works! Don't worry about that feather duster, it'll be gone in a few months!

 

It is so hard to even give GENERAL advice here when it comes to breeding anymore.

 

And you know, there was a post not long ago where someone actually said that they thought breeding was going to be an easy, carefree hobby? That's the kind of thing people need to be advised against.

 

Argh. I have talked too long and I might as well shut up. Have a go at me all you want, I honestly don't care anymore. It's not like I expected to change anyone's mind to begin with. I just have trouble sitting back and watching this type of thing go on without any words against it. As far as I'm concerned, I would be betraying Pippin and Piper if I said absolutely nothing about the very things that killed them.

Edited October 30, 200618 yr by eterri

That's the thing, I am NOT anti-breeding. I am for breeding responsibly. I don't care if you're breeding "show budgies" or "pet budgies" or whatever. The bottom line with me, is that the birds are appreciated and treated fairly. I also have a lot of feelings tied into careless breeding after watching two birds die as a result of it. Of course I'm going to be against that type of breeding. And the attitude represented here (that getting a $1000 budgie is more important than safe-guarding bloodlines from the feather duster gene) is EXACTLY why we have such an enormous problem with very poorly bred birds.

 

Terri you are anti breeding, you have condoned every aspect of breeding on this forum. You have pointed out in the past that you wished all breeding of budgerigars to stop. You have absolutyely no experience in breeding or genetics. Your information comes from what you read. If I read up extensively on heart surgery, would you be happy to be under my knife..? I wouldn't.

 

How on earth can you say that you care about health and longevity and THEN go on to say that you're breeding a bird that could likely produce feather dusters and/or offspring that can produce them as well? How can you tell me that health and longevity is your biggest concern when you flat out said (for all to see) that if it happens, so be it? How can you call this responsible when you, yourself, have said that getting feather dusters is worth the risk if you end up with an "outstanding bird on the show bench?"

 

How is this not selfish?

 

I am sorry I forgot that you have a phd in genetics and that you know the bird intensive back ground so you are far more experienced than I to call on this... How do you know what genes this bird carrys. How do you know that this bird will produce a feather duster in any of it's progoney. You don't.

 

You might as well tell Bea, Karen, Bubble and everyone else here to stop their breeding programs until they get conclusive evadenace that thier birds are genetically correct in every way. It's the same thing!

 

When I came here (shortly before you were here, Daz), yeah I was met with a lot of opposiing views. However, I was told that this was a place for pet owners and breeders alike! I am not against responsible breeding. I am not against showing budgies. Obviously, I'm not against having them as pets! What bothers me is that this board has slowly but surely begun to develop this fine line between those who breed and those who don't. Standards are different, ideas are different... you know what's the same? The bird is exactly the same. The ones your aviaries are the same types as you have in your living rooms. Those aviary birds deserve everything we'd give any other budgie. I don't care if they're for show or breeding or pets. They are BUDGIES. This is a budgie forum. What brings us together (I thought) was supposed be the love of budgies!

 

The difference is in the birds are visual. But show birds/animals need more than the pets. There is more attention given to the requirements of the bench or the show ring.

 

I love my birds in many ways but you have to categories that emotion and put it on a shelf and if you find my love different to what you would accept as decent that is you problem.

 

Breeding is not easy it is not something that people should decide over night to do. You can not understand breeding or genetic completly from a book. I once thought you could until I tried but you can't. It has more heart aches than good times. You just don't hear of them here. Some night I get up three or four times in the cold to quieten the birds down so that they won't hurt themselves.

 

Those that do decide to breed and want the best for thiers bird look for a forum or advice that can help them. I am yet to find a forum on the internet that I would consider good at this.

This forum has many great people, Hath, Nerwen, Karen, Bubbles just to name a few. But as Hath said

but because we breed show birds we have to be quite and not defend our selves

 

I disagree.

At the end of the day it likely isn't my problem or yours. It's the problem of the bird that only lives a few months and the problem of its new owner who actually did take the time to care for it and love in the true sense of love. What gets you your star showbird might get someone else a very broken heart and even worse, it might get a budgie (or two or fifty or more) a very, very shortened and sad life.

 

I really don't understand why you wouldn't do everything you could to avoid causing more feather dusters or other genetic defects that would be fatal to a budgie.

 

I don't care what the visual differences are, they are still the same bird. Some of those birds do get lucky enough to end up with someone who loves them dearly and wouldn't trade them for the world. But even then, they have to be lucky enough to escape a bad hand being dealt in their background.

ive got to say the web is a wonderful tool but it can be dangerous as well

 

It's the problem of the bird that only lives a few months

 

are these show birds or pets birds that live for a couple of months then die because mine dont and the people in my local clubs dont die after a couple of months was a again it is this generalization against all breeders show/pet that irritates me you read on the web some where that show birds are this that and the other and all of a sudden all breeders do this and dont look after their birds hoe many breeders do you personally know of show birds how many birdrooms have you visited of people with show birds at a geuss none its all of the web the wonderfull web a little bit of reading by so called experts with no qualifications but access to the web is not good when you move to england arrange some visits to some show breeders and talk to them

I have to agree with Daz and Hath, mainly because of the point Daz made about the guy who wanted to 'breed' out disabilities and diseases.

I know lots of people related to others who have relatives that have dieseases or disabilities, and I know that I would be cruel to tell them that they were'nt allowed kids.

I have a diesease with unknown causes, but if someone told me i wasnt allowed to have kids cause they might have my diesease I would probably deck them!

Lately, this site has been geared toward breeding quite a bit and that's fine and that's understandable.

I have to say it has been breeding season and who doesn't enjoy seeing baby birds?

 

And I think that even if we hadn't domesticated birds mutations such as feather dusters would still turn up. You can't escape it.

 

Also I just showed my friend who is very experiance with breeding all types of birds and I though I would post what he said.

okay that budgie isnt french molt becaue it has all its feathers its not buff because there is not enough feathering to become a problem the budgie looks very sick and the way it is pearching it looks to have some sort of internal problem possibly worms or in a serious case could even be PBFD the budgie should be put into a hospital cage

well the chance of breeding a feather duster is slim only about 1-2% and the off spring may or may not hold the gene the breeding parents should have a history of their origins and that shoud give some idea of where it cam from if no histroy is available then who ever the chickes are sold to should be informed of the condition the parents budgies are not shown in the pics so if the male is blue and female pied then the gene prob came from the female if that makes sence

Carri

Hath, I was referring to feather duster budgies living only a few months, not show budgies in general. I don't get ALL my information from the web, I've come to know a lot of budgie owners.

 

Carri, I ignored that part of Daz's "points" because it is absolutely irrelevant. They don't have all those moral hang-ups involved with breeding that we do because they're animals! My budgies aren't sitting in a corner crying because they want to get married and have "kids." That's ridiculous.

 

It is the JOB of a responsible breeder to safeguard future generations of these birds so that they're not only around, but they're healthier and more long-lived.

that is a great question and it can be asked too if you knew the parents that you bought had a feather duster history would you have bought them?

 

Do you feel the breeder you purchased your birds from should have told you they had a chance in producing a feather duster? Isn't that an important point that was left out?

 

If you sold your male to someone who you knew would potentially breed would you tell them he has a chance of producing a feather duster even if you breed him and he never did for you?

 

These are all expections questions "what do you expect from the breeders" you purchase from since the birds you purchase are more expensive and considered of a good bloodline.

 

of course the reverse can be said to me about a pet store or a breeder I purchase my pet budgies from they are no different and I should receive the same information right?

 

I WISH...but as you said pet and show is different in the terms of expection.

 

As I see though there is more money on the table and an expected healthy and strong bird from a top breeder who is charging alot more money. (budgies are budgies and no matter how expensive they are they are still the same bird but the same can be said about 2 dogs of the same breed you can buy a pure breed maltese for 300.00 but if you want a better bloodline, a smaller weight dog, and a "so called" better appearance you can expect to pay over 800.00). The 2 dogs have the same longevity we hope, they are the same species but what we want the dog to look like as humans is very different. Bottomline - we play God too much with all species.

Edited October 31, 200618 yr by lovey

Even in the world of dog showing and breeding, a responsible breeder will screen the parents for known health issues with the breed to insure that those traits are not passed on to the puppies. I really don't feel it should be different with budgies. Yes, it's much much harder to do but in this case there may very well be a clear sign that a bad gene could be pass on. To avoid doing this in hopes of still getting a prize on a show bench shows just how backwards this hobby can become. Not every breeder would make this decision so no, I'm not talking about every budgie breeder out there. I just feel that the decision made in this case is very selfish and without the concern of the birds in mind. There is no way around that, whether we're talking pet birds or show birds. The difference between them is purely human perception, desire, and selfishness. The reality of the situation is that they are living, breathing, animals that we have taken in and changed. They rely on us rather than mother nature to pick and choose who goes on to breed and improve the species. To some breeders, this replaces "survival of the fittest" with "survival of the prettiest bird with the best markings, stature, colors, etc." While I don't condemn those who breed for those things, I think they should come second to health and longevity.