Al@n

This is a well considered and constructed reply. You clearly have understood the point, and responded appropiately. I thank you for your participantion, and will definately use your imput to improve the current research. The fertility aspect is something that we are continuing to record, as effeciency is important in this process. CheersFurther, Nubby5 I think that your critque has not really considered the impact of psychological health, in part I agree with your overall analysis, but I feel that psychological satisfaction has been given any legitimacy. This could be a major key to many facets of sucessful breeding. In relation to breeding for fertility, disease etc, I totally agree with your understanding of cosmetic pleasure, not resilience. cheers

Hi all, after much deliberation I made the decision to write this comment. I know that this may ruffell a few feathers ( pardon the pun). I have breed and shown birds over the last 30 years. My first experience was in NSW showing Red Factor canaries, and at the age of Twelve won my first place at the Sydney Royal Easter show, best heavily variegated. I was consumed by the competitive nature of showing. Now when I was breeding for show level birds lines and genetics were paramount. At no time did I consider that my birds should have some sort of enjoyment, except for feeding high quality foods. I never actually thought about if they were happy, living in such a restricted environment. But breeders know how this goes, out of breeding cabinets into flights. Now after many years, I have been able to critically analyse this somewhat narrow view. Now I love birds, and the joy that they bring, but I never considered how I could enhance their experience. I have since breed Australian parrots, Finches, and numerous canaries (Lizard, Border, Yorkshire) . However, what I would like to discuss is Budgies. I know the show scene has an emphasis on type structure, and construction. So, as breeders we play the numbers game. That is, produce as many young as possible without consideration, because the more we breed the greater our chances of success ( unfortunately this is inculturated). Well after 30 years of breeding and showing (I stopped the latter as I felt that it impeded my objectivity), I have come to the realisation that the birds psychological health was the key. Seeing some many English birds that appeared to almost have no instinctual capacity, required that I ask whether as an enthusiasts we were doing the right thing, and whether this was sustainable for the breed. My conclusion was NO to both answers, I then realised that this had occurred purely as a result of self-interest. Therefore this was not about conservation, this was about self. okay, what do I mean, here is the kicker, it was not about breeding and showing, it was about how clever we are at manipulating nature to produce unnatural results. So what have I done. I love the beauty and size of the English birds, but I do not love its clear lack of intelligence. I see that the sustainable future of these birds lay in its popularity. Therefore I believe that there is a place for large heavily feathered intelligent birds. These beautiful birds need to be placed in an environment that is conducive to learning. What you may ask is, what can I do? Well, this is what I have done. The beautiful (large) English birds now struggle to be effective fliers. Therefore, I have gone to the expense of buying 1.5m(W) X .9(D) X 1.8(H) metre aviaries for breeding. I have dispensed of cabinets (3 years ago). For the first 12 months I never seen these birds on the ground, it was almost like they did not know that there was a ground. At this point I had six pairs that where averaging 2.35 young per nest . The first year of using the aviary method no young could fly. All on ground , even when eating they could not fly, so I would put them in cabinets until they where fly adequately. This could take many weeks. okay, now I went from 6 to 9 avaires of the same size in 2008, I used two nice pied hens from the previous year. Both had a good feather in general but a little long in flight feather. These hens both averaged 4.7 reared young ratio, but the real surprise was their chicks ability to be able to fly once leaving the nest. So clearly I was having almost 100% increase in reared chicks. Now, I wondered why, but though initially it was put down to fitter healthier specimans, through the use of larger breeding facilities. Anyway 2009 breeding season comes the results had improved again. I had gone from 4.7 success ratio to 5.1. this was amazing. But this year had shown a major increase in size, well I say major, but it was clearly noticeable. Why, well I decided to more away from line breeding, not totally but enough to see if hybrid vigour would play a role. I am sure that it has. But I also think that at this point it is import to note that all pairs were matched, and that no double up of faults occurred. Although, I did get some wonderful throw backs, in particular an green opaline that was tiny (smaller than a pet bird) and I mean tiny but colour was amazing, on the whole the results were outstanding. But the birds seemed to lose their quiet nature, they were much more active. So I approached a geneticist that I worked with at the University, as asked why. I explained what was occurring, and she suggested that these birds where now able to tap into their historical genetic code of inheritance, and that breeders in the past had been able to diminish previous codes of inheritance (inbreeding), but because this was somewhat recent (have not changed evolutionary structure),that by providing a more conductive environment that I was restoring their mental health/ psychological well being which was also allowing for instinct to become relevent. So I pose the question on these results, do you breed birds for yourself gratification (which is totally understandable) or do you breed birds because you love them, and find their character interesting. In conclusion, as humans with human knowledge and understanding we can control many outcomes this is clearly displayed by genetic engineering. For example I bought an avocardo the other day with a seed that was tiny. But we also have the ability to place budgies that are confined to small spaces, feed them and reduce their natural instinst . I think that you could get George Clooney and Elle Mcpherson, place them in a goal cell, I am sure that they would breed because there would not be anything else, it would be a wonderfully beautiful child, i am sure, but would that be a happy child, I think not. So think about the psychological health and how space freedom add to this. Fortunately budgies have not been exposed to captivity long enough for us humans to destroy their code of inheritance. Finishing, this is not, and was not designed to create aggression, this is designed to create and simulate sustain thought and consideration. This study was not conducted under a controlled situation, and some limitations will occur, as fresh seed sources (where supplied) would influence chick developmental outcomes and this was not measured . Sunshine Coast climate has been somewhat different, but should not be considered as having any major difference, although humidity levels may. Key Points. Space for breeding requirements. Psychological Wellbeing Hybrid Vigour. I hope that you look at this analysis within the context that it was delivered, it is not judgemental, but purely a perspective that I as an animal loving person has. Negative feedback is expected and understood, but I will not respond to it. I wish all the best, Cheers.

I am more than happy to discuss capitalism, but firstly I need to now your critque of Karl Marx, and Marxism, so that I have a better understanding of your view point, cheers i would suggest as a breeder of birds for many years that this suggestion of method was not used we here on this forum have people in all fields of work with many partaking in jobs that have many different products that im sure if looked into may be able to be used for birds however this information comes with no back up or guarantee i would suggest if you lacked money for a vet to ask here for a safe alternative two of our members expert in these feilds are nubbly 5 and rip budgies dont go using this above method suggested by member al@n as it is not proven or fool proof it has no wright up to stand it up with proven history of use and full report of its effect in long term this is not an opinion by the way this is a safety warning so to speak my opinion would not be received well if spoken im certain of that :question: ,yours gb Do you have any scientific rigor to support your opinion. Iam sorry I should not have said that because I know that you do not. please remember that opinions are like armpits most of us have at least two and they generally stink. I am happy for you to be critical but I expect that intelligence should play a role. If you are going to be judgemental at least do so with fact not opinion, Cheers love.

I have discovered that Frontline is an alternative to other medications. This drug as the ability to not effect lifespan and fertility. I suggest no more than 2 drops to the back of the head. This will be effective for both scaly face and any mites that the birds will pickup. Now, I take no responsibility for anyone that uses this particular medication, and if one chooses to do so make sure you understand the research and dosage levels. However from my personal experience if you dont have the finances to take your birds to a Vet this may be something that you can utilise to sustain life. Further, I understand that that i may have made inappropriate comments. In my defence I do have issue with opinion not fact. I am not happy to allow people to be directed by capitalism, however this forum is not a democracy, but an extension of capitalism. I wish you all well and hope that at some stage you can become apart of the future. Bye All and good luck you will need it. Cheersl

I feel as a consistant replier to forum comments that you feel that you have some sort of power. As an acedemic that knows how to spell (whether) I suspected that I would encounter non objective members. You have attempted to insult me, and my intelligence. However, I feel that you have exposed a lack of knowledge. You have not read my investigation, and have not read the point I have made. I do not believe that you have added to this discussion in a positive way, and request that this is a forum designed and promote this wonderful breed. I do not believe that this forum was created for you to attack members that are seeking to provide information that many be effective and benefital. You need to consider how your individual socialisation effects your ability to be objective and sensible. Cheers

My personal view on this subject is somewhat objective. Many people seek to be successful based on quality alone. I feel that breeding programs can be based on a minimalist veiwpoint. Now I know that this will confuse many. My point is that most successful breeding should include fertility rates. Therefore, if one is to excellerate breeding processes, one needs to look at fertility as a major part of your program. Now what does this mean? It means breeding that encapulates the parents abilty to parent. This would mean that hens that are from fertite and productive parents are where you need to focus your breeding programme from. This will increase productivity no end, but this is a numbers game, so therefore work on fertility and the results will come. So I guess this is somewhat confronting to most, but if we all focused on fertility the breed would be where it needs to be to complete with the European market, Cheers, PS I am Happy to debate anyone on based on facts .

As a reseacher, University level, I decided to investigate the benefits of a non sweat gland alternatives.Then I discovered that like budgies dogs had no sweat glands. therefore it was important to proceed. Further, then understanding glandular network I could then find a product. Well it worked out that frontline could be a possibilty. This theory was based on pure molecular theory. Therefore I invested in some frontline plus.I knew this was a gamble. To date the results indicate that my theory was correct, this is based ,on how this particular drug works. To my surprise it has invigorated the bird, and I believe this should prove successful. I would like to add that this particular experiment is based on much research and knowledge of drugs. I do not wish that people undergo such experiments witout thorough knowledge and expertise, although your gut feeling can direct you. The outcome of this experiment in is only in its initial stages, and has not been tested for ferrility or longevity of this species.

Thank you, ivomectom certainly looks the way to go, less dicken around. also what is this water treatment called.

Hi all, unfortunately I have discovered scaley face. I have decided to use canola oil as it is seed based. Question is how often do I treat, and how long will treatment be required. Thank you in advance. Cheers

Very Interesting

Thank you so very much for your reply splats, cheers

Hi all, I am new to this site and I have two twin boys that are very interested in breeding budgies, however I am finding it difficult to find breeders on the Sunshine Coast, all help would be appreciated, Cheers Alan.