chookbreeder9

not very coordinated mate - any names?? He makes me look like a dwarf!

okay. I have been doing a bit of homework as well. The following is an excerpt from an article by John Mulley that can be found at http://www.bcsa.com.au/Articles/Clearwingmulley.htm "Perhaps this is the time to clarify the relationship between clearwings, greywings and blackeyes. These varieties are genetically allelic, arising from different mutations of the same gene. All are recessive to normals, with carriers(splits) the outcome of crossing to normals. However, clearwings and greywings are dominant to blackeyes(or stated differently, blackeyes are recessive to clearwings and greywings). Clearwings and greywings are co-dominant to each other: intercrossing gives full bodied greywings with features of both varieties(the wing markings of the greywing and the body colour of the clearwing). the three varieties(cleawings, greywings and blackeyes) are upgraded by outcrossing to normals in order to import features that are lacking. I know little about the fourth allelic variety, cinnamonwing yellows(not the same as blackeyed yellows), but do know that there is a light and dark form of greywing marking(with the darker wing dominant to the lighter wing) and there is a dilute gene which is expressed in only clearwings and greywings. Dilutes in either variety should go straight into the petshop and not be presented at shows; however, some say that sizable dilute clearwings crossed back to normal clearwings will clear the wings. The disadvantage of this strategy is that the dilute gene is inherited recessively and will further contribute to wastage in subsequent generations." I don't necessarily agree with John's opinion on dilutes, but... From http://www.budgerigar.com.au/hills/an_inte..._peter_dodd.htm Comments from Peter Dodd "6.What colour varieties do you avoid using to your Black Eyes and do you use many splits? If so, are they Normals or Cinnamons. I don't know that there are colours that I avoid but there are certain varieties that I think should not be considered, e.g. Fallow, Clearwing. Dominant pied. Recessive Pied and Greywing unless you want to breed Greywing Black-Eyed Selfs. The outcrosses I use to obtain splits include Normal. Opaline. Cinnamonwing and Cinnamonwing Spangle. I have no doubt that using Opaline hens is by far the best outcross but this creates a large wastage factor as Opaline Black Eyed Self colour can only be shown in the Normal Opaline Class and of course they have no chance of winning. It is only in the last couple of years that I have been using Spangle Cinnamonwings and results are looking very encouraging but once again there is the wastage factor as any spangle Cinnamonwing Black Eyed Selfs produced are not a Standard Variety. The bottom line here is that any outcrosses you use has to be the best bird in you aviary. There is no point in using second best." Why isn't he using dilutes to breed his blackeyes? He talkes about using cinnamons as an outcross and also states in the article that most blackeyes carry cinnamon. I bet that many carry the dark factor as well - so what! If the blackeye has to carry cinnamon, why use normals to outcross - just use good cinnamons and avoid the wastage? From the Wayne Cusack interview at http://www.budgerigar.com.au/5Cusack%20pro...Fwebversion.pdf "What are your typical Black Eyed pairings in a season? I breed 15 to 18 pairs a year. Most pairs are Black Eyed x Black Eyed, two or three are Black Eyed to Grey Yellow and two or three are Black Eyed to suffused birds." Why hasn't he got a plan like finding the best cinnamons and breeding them to the best dilutes, then pairing their offspring together to get cinnamon cocks and hens that are homozygous dilute? Why bother pairing blackeye to blackeye? Don't forget, this bloke is in the "ANBC Hall of Fame" because of his blackeyes. "How many Black Eyes do you put to other varieties to create splits and what varieties do you use? I put two to three Black Eyes to Normals each year. I use Light and Dark Green Normals, Light and Dark Green Cinnamons and Cinnamon Skys. The second best split I have is Cinnamon Sky." Yes he uses cinnamons just like I use cinnamons in my double factor spangle to reduce suffusion. That doesn't mean that all DF spangles are cinnamon or have to be cinnamon. There are also the comments about losing the variety. If they were a composite of cinnamon and dilute, what are we worrying about? We can just make a few. I can breed dilutes without trying and cinnamons are everywhere. To me all of the evidence points to blackeyes as being a distinct variety. But you can decide for yourself! PT

Had one like that recently. My birds like to get down and chew on your feet when you walk into the flights. A not very coordinated mate visited recently and I reckon trod on one. The bird wouldn't put any weight on it so I put him in a baby cage for 6 weeks and now you would not know anything happened. Good luck, PT

Sad to say that some of mine have names. The 08 Nat winning Albino is "blondie" and I have a handy fallow called "Eddie Maguire" because he is everywhere I look. Some purchases get named after their breeder - a bit like farmers naming dogs. But that is as far as it goes. Cheers PT

ps: Heathrow might have a comment - he is a guru on dilutes and blackeyes! Very Funny Pete - I've breed a couple of Dilutes and never bred a Blackeye. Cheers H - just trying to draw you out of your cave!

Nubbly, That may be so, but why are they never as good as a Cinnamon or a Dilute - even the very best of the blackeyes?

If a blackeye is carrying cinnamon, would the colour of its feet be the tell tale sign......pink feet for instance ? Hi Kaz, Had a discussion about this with another judge that just happened to ring me last night and we talked about feet colour. The problem with feet colour is it is not a consistent tell tale sign. You can find normals out there with pink feet. The blackeye standard calls for "pinkish, blue grey, mottled". I think the fact that blue grey and mottled feet are acceptable could indicate that that not all blackeyes carry cinnamon and as such gives rise to the possibility of them being a distinct mutation at the greywing/dilute locus. However, we do not know a lot about the inheritance of feet colour.The Dilute standard refers to them as having blue grey, mottled feet, the cinnamon standard says pinkish grey. So maybe the blackeye standard is reflective of them being a combination of the two varieties? If they were all cinnamon dilutes, then why would breeders waste their time breeding them to normals to produce splits, when there are so many good cinnamons around? Also, it can't be the case that the cinnamon and dilute genes are in linkage disequilibrium (such is the case with cinnamon opalines and lacewings) because the genes are on different chromosomes. So while you may be able to produce "synthetic blackeyes" (just as you can produce synthetic lacewings - cinnamon fallows), I also believe that they are a distinct variety. But I am more than happy to be proven wrong. Cheers PT ps: the other judge thought that they were a distinct variety as well.

Chookbreeder, are you saying that there are actually 5, not 4, alleles on this locus? (Normal, greywing, clearwing, dilute, and now this "blackeye") I have never heard it explained that way before. Hi Finnie, Yes I know, the literature only talks about 4 alleles. I am guessing the problem is that there are few australian blackeyes in the northern hemisphere so not a lot of work has been done on them. Cheers PT

Hi Nubbly, Riddle me this... If blackeyes are cinnamon dilutes, why are they all pissants with narrow heads and no feather? Good cinnamons are as good as any budgie and quality dilutes are not that far behind. If Blackeyes are a combination of these two varieties, then why are they such runts??? There is no doubt that there are blackeyes out there that are carrying/masking cinnamon, but there are plenty of others that aren't, and the true blackeye shouldn't have cinnamon in it. Saying that, you would have to be good to pick a cinnamon dilute or cinnamon blackeye from a "pure" blackeye. Cheers PT

PT where might a person get fresh lucerne ? I grow it in my backyard. It is a perennial and is sort of dormant during winter (although it still grows). My birds go berserk over it. Cheers PT

My birds all came back fine from the Nationals, but they do get fresh lucerne occaisionaly. PT

She is definitely not a fallow. I would say she is a dilute (grey yellow, whatever...). She looks grey factor on our dodgy computer monitor. She could have been bred from blackeyes and could be classed as a "bad blackeye". They are sort of interchangeable as the genes that control blackeye, dilute, greywing, etc are all at the same locus. Not sure about the reference to cinnamon in exhibition blackeyes? They are not a composite variety and cinnamon has no place in blackeyes from what I understand. The blackeye breeders I know don't use cinnamons in their blackeyes. If you think she is good enough to breed with, just pair her to a normal and if the progeny are any good, you will keep them and breed from them and eventually the mutation will show up again. Focus on the bird first and the variety second. Cheers PT ps: Heathrow might have a comment - he is a guru on dilutes and blackeyes!

Ghazzigh, if the parents are both clearbodies, then it is most likely that it is a Lutino. The cock bird is probably split ino and if so the lutino will also be a hen. The parents would have to be spangle clearbodies for the baby to be a double factor. Cheers, PT

I agree that the normals will have a bit more suffusion than the opalines. However, I don't think that inos (in particular Lutinos) and lacewings provide the answer. Breeders of these varieties are always trying to increase the depth of colour in their birds. They do this by adding dark factor to, and eliminating grey factor from the mix. Dark factor is not wanted in clearbody breeding as it increases the body colour and the lacewings and Lutes mask the presence of the dark factor which makes it risky using them. My advice would be to breed them to albinos that are bred through greys and grey normals. With lacewings you will get some crossing-over of the sex chromosome which means you will occasionally breed cinnamon clearbodys. Check out http://www.euronet.nl/users/hnl/sexchrom.htm for a good description of crossing over during meiosis For what it is worth, I would be reluctant to cull on variety. The baby on the left looks to be decent quality, possesing shoulder and brow. It is easier to fix variety problems than it is to breed good type. Your budgies - your choice. Cheers, PT

Alan Baxter won the Violets - looked a good budgie. Alan Rowe had a Lutino which is perhaps the best UBC I have ever seen. I am sure it will make it onto the cover of the Budgie News. Results are on the BCV website. Cheers. PT.

That is a shame Splat. Talking to a "BCV official" apparently numbers are similar to last year. It will be interesting to see what the "tail" is like. Cheers, PT

For what it's worth, Melton will struggle this time. A few of us have had a slow start to this breeding season and a number waited for the new ring issue to pair up. I am sure this will be the case for many clubs. Sunday will reveal all. Splat - does that mean that Ky won't be fielding a team this year? Cheers PT

While fertility is better at some times of the year than others (not surprisingly, I find April / May ordinary), budgies will breed whenever you give them adequate nutrition and a nest box. Put a pair up and feed them properly and they will just keep breeding (not that I do this). They don't stop and say, "Oh, hang on, the season has changed so I must stop breeding!" Birds breed when we want them to - not when they want to.

I thought the Nationals was a show for the best young birds. At this rate, birds with grand-progeny will be eligable to be shown at the Nationals. I would be dead against July, just as I was against September - but if there is an advantage to be gained from the change I will try and gain it. That's why I will be double ringing until the end of the year. Changing the ring issue date won't change who wins at the Nationals just beacause all of these previously "too young" birds will now be eligable. It will be the same names: George, Smith, Ault, Gazzard, Rowe, Sheppard & Flanagan, etc. There are always hard luck stories about the Nationals, like "I had a better one at home, but it was too young (not having a go at you Gina), or in a moult, or dropped it's tail, or the judges didn't recognise it's quality, or the judges picked their mates bird, etc" and the owners of these birds will be saying the same things in two years time. Nothing will change.

Mine arrived today, but unlike Heathrow, I haven't got 10 chicks to put them on! Cameronsch, don't ponder the inponderable! None of the arguements thrown up by those who wished to change the ring issue date held any water for me. Some said that our birds are maturing slower and needed the extra 4 months to develop and be competitive at the Nationals. Of my 4 National winners the oldest was 14 months (Dom Pied born early April). The others were UBC's at the Vic UBC shield - ie: born July making them 10-11 months at the Nationals. With the ring issue change, birds can now be as old as 20-21 months and still be eligable to be shown at the Nationals. I will be double ringing my babies until xmas and will assess where I head from there. The change was not necessary in my opinion, but they are the new rules of the game and we will just adapt. Cheers!

Righto - according to my calender it is the 28th of August. Anyone got their rings yet? Cheers, PT

Thanks Nubbly. I am a cattle person not a sheep person and I assumed (first mistake) that ivomec was used the same way in sheep as we used it in cattle. I have since looked at the bottle of ivomec from our local supplier of bird stuff and it refers to it as being sheep ivomec for oral use. I have been using it as a pour on and it still works (for external parasites at least). There are oral and injectable versions of ivomec for sheep - check out http://www.vetproductsdirect.com.au/vetpro...esc.asp?Ic=2904, for info on the sheep oral version. It doesn't control externals, just internals. However to be sure I will switch to cattle ivomec. I am guessing that it is not worth Merial and the like to get the product registered for bird use due the cost of registration versus the amount sold. Thanks for the heads up.

There are a couple of different Ivomec based products that are used in large animals, pour on, oral and injectable. The one I use is a pour on which is in an emulsion that doesn't disolve in water. Ivomec is a systemic product. It gets absorbed into the bloodstream though the skin. Therefore it kills anything that sucks blood (like mites) and any internal parasites (like worms).

Ivomec was originally developed as a sheep and cattle drench. It was the first generation of "pour on" drenches that treated both internal and external parasites (worms, lice, etc). Believe me - it is much easier to pour something on the back of a cow or sheep than it is to stick it down it's throat! There are different strengths depending on the species (cattle or sheep). I use sheep strength ivomec and the dose for a budgie is about one drop applied to the skin. It doesn't matter where you put it but I put it behind the head. Cattle strength ivomec is more concentrated so you use a bit less. I know some people put it in the water, however it is usually in an emulsion and I am not sure how it "dissolves" in water. To be sure that the bird is treated, I would catch it and put a drop or two on the skin. Cheers PT

Thanks for the replies. I know we are supposed to get them on Sept 1, but what I really wan't to know is how much variation is there from state to state in actual arrival date? Do they all arrive Sept 1 or are some earlier and if so how much earlier? Cheers, PT