Finnie

Robyn, the short answer is "yes, sort of". You need a separate table for each of the "umpteen bits". You have the recessive pied worked out, I think, except that the cock is not "split normal" he's "normal split recessive pied" (The normal is dominant to the rec. pied.) Yes, all of the chicks are split rec. pied; they got it from their mother. Every baby she ever produces will get this from her, since she is "double factor" for rec. pied. The same goes for all the parents other traits as well. For each trait, they will get one copy of the gene from the father, one from the mother. That's where the separate tables come in, to figure out what combinations are possible from a given father and mother, for each separate trait. There are links around here I've seen to a good site where it is explained fairly simply for each budgie color and mutation. I will go to find it and add it here. the budgie place Each of the traits talked about in the article have a place where you can click to see more genetic details. These are very helpful. Good luck, have fun

This is extremely timely!! I was planning to do a search about plum eyes, because I have a new cock that I have been trying to figure out. (sorry, no pics yet) He's all yellow, so either DF spangle or DEC. He's obviously NOT lutino, but his eyes have a slight reddish cast, which I take to be plum. All along I thought he had iris rings, but it's been very hard to tell. So that was what was confusing me, because I didn't think plum eyes and iris rings could come in combination with each other. I am very happy to read this and find out that DF spangles can also have plum eyes! So if I have it straight, we have: plum eyes with no rings means recessive pied. (Or dark eyed clear if solid yellow or white.) plum eyes with iris rings means cinnamon. (Or double factor spangle if solid yellow or white.) And DF spangle could also have the plum eyes because of masking cinnamon. Now I know what to look for!

Even if the colors come out strange, I think a bad photo would at least show us where his markings lay. As I understand it, it is normal for the primary flight feathers to come out whiter looking than the rest of the feathers. Don't know if this helps. He sounds like a regular dom pied so far.

Could he be a dom pied split for recessive pied?

If next year's cock is split for recessive pied, you can add that to the list, too

I think the eldest is a hen. I'm not good enough to be able tell about the other two, though. Sorry.

I was also wondering why you wouldn't want to breed dilutes. I thought maybe because they might be in a difficult show class, or maybe they might have size issues? But, like RIP says, breed what you like. I personally love the dilutes. They look so soft and pastel. Is it tricky to keep them pure for dilute without getting greywing and clearwing in there messing things up? (I'm assuming you would be crossing them to normals occasionally, and the normals might be hiding something?)

Hi Keggy! Welcome to the forum. This is a great place to learn all kinds of stuff about keeping and raising budgies! If you go to the faq's section, you can find lots of articles that will help you learn about colony vs closed breeding, as well as other things about budgies that you might not have even thought of asking about! There are also articles on how to tell if your birds are male or female. Your best bet is to take the nest box away from them until you decide whether breeding budgies is right for you. And then learn a lot from this forum before you start again. If you have a hen who has been spending a month non-stop in the nest box, she probably needs a break so she can get some excercise. :rofl: Well, that's my two cents. Wander around the forum, read a lot, ask questions, and make friends. I have been doing that for about a year, and I have learned a ton! :rofl:

I was thinking you were a chip off the old block, but I guess you already know that! :rofl: Welcom to the forum, by the way.

I guess you'll never be done working on it!

This is great, Kaz! I love seeing all these pictures of how nice you have made it for your birds. All your hard work has paid off, and now you are able to enjoy the final product! :hooray: :bliss: Congratulations!! :yes: :star:

By Jove, I think she's got it! :rofl:

Anne, I think he looks like a "she" :question:

:question: :bump:

The Multiple alleles for the gene we are talking about here are: 1. normal, 2. GF, 3. YFll, 4. YFl, andf 5. blue. Until more variations mutate, these are the only possibilities that can go in this spot. It might help to think of it like names in a hat. No other names are possible in this hat. But, your chick doesn't get to pick from all 5, it only gets to pick from the ones it's parents have to put into the hat. Each parent has 2 to put in, so there are 4 in there, total. The chick only gets to pick 2. (Obviously, chicks don't pick their own genes, but then again, the hat is imaginary anyway ) Incidentally, since the chick picks 2 and there are 2 left, the one you were hoping the father would pass down to the offspring is almost guaranteed to be one of the ones left behind! :bump: Does this help at all, Renee?

Well, in that case, I will just have to go back to the drawing board until I get it right. Maybe after Sunday I will learn more!

okay, everybody, I did my genetics homework and I think I have figured it out (kind of, I hope) And if I can copy my notes without making too many typos, this might make sense. (Of course, if I get something wrong, point it out so I don't spread misinformation.) Here goes. All these alleles are on the same gene: Normal (which is green), Goldenface, Yellowface Mutant II, Yellowface Mutant I and Blue. (In order of dominance) Genes come in pairs, so here are all the possibilities we can come up with: Normal/Normal Normal/Goldenface Normal/YFll Normal/YFl Normal/Blue (Normal is complete dominance, so all normal green birds) Goldenface/Goldenface Goldenface/YFll Goldenface/YFl Goldenface/Blue (Goldenface is incomplete dominance, so these are distinguishable from each other.) YFll/YFll YFll/YFl YFll/Blue (YFll is complete dominance, so these all look the same -I think) YFl/YFl (Double factor = blue bird, white face) YFl/Blue (Single factor = blue bird, yellow face) (Again, incomplete dominance, because the /blue factor affects the appearance.) Blue/Blue (least dominant, can't be split to anything. Blue, of course) The tricky part is that because of the incomplete dominance, all four combinations of Goldenface look slightly different from each other. (RIP amazed us all earlier with her ability to detect the differences, I can't even begin to describe them properly!) She did mention that we are supposed to think of these mutations as "yellow removing" factors. After studying how she described Kaz's (and my one) photos, I think I can list what each of them "does". This is the head spinning question part: Did I get it right? Normal allele - removes NO yellow at all Goldenface allele - removes NO yellow from the face, removes SOME yellow from the body and wings Yellowface mutant ll - removes SOME yellow from the face, removes SOME yellow from the body and wings Yellowface mutant l - removes SOME yellow from the face (when doubled up, removes ALL), removes ALL yellow from the body and wings Blue allele - removes ALL yellow from the face, romoves ALL yellow from the body and wings I found it interesting that the order they are dominant to each other is also the order in which more and more yellow is removed. (Note the NOs, the SOMEs and the ALLs.) And I THINK, but am not sure, that it fits that when you combine the Goldenface with the lesser dominant alleles, you get lighter and lighter shades of yellow in the face, because more and more yellow is "being removed". I'm guessing that the double factor Goldenface doesn't make the yellow "extra dark", it just leaves it as dark as it normally is in a green bird. So, what do you think? Does it make sense, or does it just make it more confusing? (Or did I just butcher it all?) Well, it's after 11:00 here, and I'm no night owl, so I can go happily off to bed and dream of the frustrated Australians that I have helped drive to drink! Have fun guys! Let me know how your Symposium goes on Sunday!

:party0011: :party0011: Can't wait to see what she got!

Thank you RIP! I will write this down on paper in my old-fashioned notebook, so I can look at it whenever I want, even if the kids are hogging the computer! And you are a boy so maybe stop trying to do other things at the same time You guys are so funny!!! I wish I could go on Sunday! That's the trouble with being on the wrong continent. I post a question before bed, get up in the morning, and find that you have been having all the fun without me!! :hug: :hap: :hap: That's all right. While you are all sleeping, I will spend the day plotting more questions to make your heads spin. hee hee. (We need an evil plotting emoticon to put here) Pleasant dreams, everyone... (evil plotting guy again)

I was secretly rooting for you to be brave and go, Splat. So now I'm cheering you on. :hug: :rofl: You go girl!

Hi Dean, You mentioned that the father of these hens throws better hens than cocks. It makes me wonder if there might be some sort of sex-linked gene that plays a part in size and blow. Have you bred any of his sons? Maybe you will get more hens like these from them? (If they are split to whatever it is.) Do any of you experienced show breeders ever come across this type of factor when you get good size and good feather? If things like opaline, cinnamon, even hemophilia in humans, can be sex-linked, why couldn't feather quality?

Firstly the bird is a Greywing. Nice body colour and dark grey markings. Lovely bird.On the face of it it looks like a double factor Goldenface but what does not convinve me there is that the photo is shot under incandesant light which tends to make yellows appear darker than they are. I do see that little bit of suffusion. Although it is there faintly due to the Greywing factor I do see yellow through the wings. So I would say your bird be combination of a Yellowface Mutant I and Goldenface. I just don't see enough of the bright yellow indicative of the Goldenface variety to show me it is a pure Goldenface. okay, cool. So greywing causes the yellow in the wings to be harder to see. And a Goldenface/Goldenface has a darker yellow mask than a Godenface/Yellowface Mutant I, which would make me think that Yellowface MutantI/Yellowface MutantI might be even a little bit lighter. Oh, Oh, Oh, wait a minute! Yellow Mutant 1 DF makes a white-face bird, I forgot! So, yeah, definitely lighter. :fear Dare I be a pain in the butt and ask if there is an order of dominance or co-dominance among these? :fear :hug:

Renee, I think it's because there are 3 different types of "yellow face", and unfortunately, they decided to name two of them the same. They should have named it something different like "half yellow body" :fear So if I have it straight, (I hope) we have: Golden Face (also known as Australian) SF and DF Yellow Face mutant I (also known as Type 1) SF and DF Yellow Face mutant II (henceforth known as "half yellow body" -just kidding) SF and DF By the way, I must say, I have been finding this thread riveting! It has drawn me out of hiding just a bit. :fear (You're all lucky that I'm only brave enough to say about 1% of all that I am thinking! )

Dave, earlier on, RIP said that Goldenface doesn't have I orII, it's just plain Goldenface.

Here's another one for you, RIP. It's not the best shot, but is it good enough to tell what this one is? "> It doesn't show, but on her belly you can see an area with a hint of yellow/green, just like was described above.