Finnie

That's the whole problem! The dad was supposed to have been cinnamon, but not one of the chicks had plum eyes. So then I began to doubt whether he really was cinnamon. The greywing is a bonus, because even though the hen is greywing, I didn't suspect that the cock would be. Do you suppose that sometimes a plum eyed chick could have such dark eyes that they don't look plum? But then, they'd still have to look cinnamon when they feathered up, wouldn't they? So I'm back to the same conclusion. Either there are no hen chicks, or the father isn't cinnamon.

They are all beautiful! I see why I was confused, now, because you said Phantom's mother was DF violet, so I assumed violet= cobalt + violet factor. But you must have meant sky violet for her. And also you meant Phantom was SPLIT to cinnamon. Gotcha. That's what I love about budgie genetics, it's like a puzzle to solve. You go by what the parents were, and then also by what the bird produces later, so you can find out more.

I can certainly identify with the dismay husbands have about keeping a flock of birds in the house! The only way I have been allowed to do this is because I have promised that it will only be for 2 or 3 years, and then I will clean and disinfect my little corner of the basement so it's as if the budgies were never there. Dust is definitely an issue. Our basement is much more dustier than it ever used to be. But it doesn't seem to find its way upstairs too noticeably. That may just be because my house has always been very dusty, so he can't blame it on the budgies! (I've always claimed some good excuses when it comes to my dust battle: constant construction of roads and houses around us, a very dusty gravel driveway, and having a 7 member family plus dogs, because they say that dust is comprised mainly of dead skin cells. Ew!) Your plan to seal the dust in seems promising. There is also the noise issue, because as we all know, their voices carry! One tip I can give you to look out for is that seed and husks permeate the entire room, and find their way into every crack and crevice. You may want to consider what material you have where your floor and walls meet, because if it's not sealed well, you might find seed gets behind the baseboards (or whatever), and it may be difficult to get it all out later. Being on the main floor, moisture may not be a problem for you, but I think it's kind of funny that I have a reliable moisture indicator for my basement, as after a hard rain, I will get lots of sprouts between my floor and walls! (And we used to think our basement was dry!) Your idea of making that 6th room an adjunct to the garage sounds pretty reasonable to me. I hope it all goes well for you, and that Ken comes around to your way of thinking. At least you've come up with a good plan to make do with for now. Good luck with it!

Maybe this will help. Think of dominant and recessive as a relationship to each other. If something is dominant, it rules over the other one. If something is recessive, it submits to the other one. (It is the one getting ruled over.) So a dominant gene will take precedence over a recessive gene, and you will only see the dominant mutation. That's a little bit oversimplified, but let me give you an example. Green is dominant over blue. If a budgie has one green gene, and one blue gene, the bird will appear green. You will not be able to tell that it also has a blue gene. That is because the blue is recessive to the green. (It just gives in and lets the green have it's way.) So a bird that has two green genes will look the same as a bird that has a green gene and a blue gene. The only way to see the blue (the recessive color) will be if the bird has two blue genes, meaning there is no green gene present. I'm not sure how basic to get about genetics for you, but it's important to understand that genes always come in pairs. For every trait, there is a pair of genes. (That's also oversimplified, some traits are ruled by several pairs of genes, but let's just worry about the easier ones for now.) Just know that all genes come in pairs. In a pair of genes, they can either both be the same, or they can be different to each other. If they are different, that is where the dominant/recessive relationship comes in. There is also a third choice of relationship called co-dominance or incomplete dominance. That's where the dominant one doesn't completely block the recessive one, it's more like they share. Spangle is an example of incomplete dominance over a normal budgie. The spangle gene takes away black. If a budgie has both copies of the normal gene, it will look normal, that is, its wing feathers will be mostly black. If a budgie has both copies of the spangle gene, the black will be completely taken away. But if a budgie has one copy of normal and one copy of spangle, then only SOME of the black will be taken away, and some of the black will still show. Both copies get to have their way a little bit, but not as much as they would if they weren't sharing. There can be lots of examples. For every single mutation that exists, it will fit into either the dominant, the recessive, or the "sharing" category. I hope this makes sense, and if it does, it should give you ideas for more questions. (Actually, it may lead to way more questions if it DOESN'T make sense! )

I'm feeling very upset right now, so I had to find this thread so I could vent. I just now was checking chicks in a nest, and I didn't realize that the youngest one was stuck to the one I was holding, and it dropped to the floor. It's not dead yet, but I don't see how it can survive. I feel just terrible! I'm really kicking myself, because this is a situation I've always been worried about, so I should have known better, but I guess I got lax. It does help a little bit to read over what you guys have done, and to remind myself that everyone makes mistakes, but I'm still sad. I've just got a little bit of hope, because Splat said she dropped one of hers and it lived. But I saw mine swell up and it's leg got stiff, so I expect I'll find it dead on the next check. Poor baby, and all my fault!

Thanks Amy. For me, four pairs is a handful! Thankfully, the hens decided to stagger themselves. I have two nests that started hatching about 3 weeks ago, and the other two hens laid later, so their chicks are just starting to hatch now. It is the fun part, though, isn't it?

More pictures, as they keep growing. Chick 1: Chick 2: Chick 3: Chick 4: Chick 5: Chick 6: I know the photos didn't come out that great, but does anybody think we have any girls or any normals in the lot?

If both his parents were opaline & cinnamon he must be both those mutations as well as the double factor spangle and if his mother was double factor violet he must be single factor violet That is good reasoning. But she didn't say his father was cinnamon, just that his mother was. Plus, how would she know whether or not he got his mother's dark factor?

Oh hey, sorry that I thought you were in Florida. Can't scroll back and double check anymore, when we're replying. But I've been solving that problem by opening the post in two windows, and replying to one of them. I have a hen that I think is a dark eyed clear, and I was thinking of breeding her to a recessive pied, because I figured I would get 50% recessive pieds, and 50% more dark eyed clears. But then I realized that maybe she could be double factored for the clearflight pied part, and then all I would get would be 100% dark eyed clear. Well, then I would know what she was, but I don't know if I want all DEC chicks. So now I think I might put her with a normal, or one that is split for recessive pied, and see what I get. Your hens all sound like normals (meaning not pied), so maybe any one of them would work well. To find a DF spangle, have you tried to google it? Or google budgie breeders in your area, and sometimes local ad listings will come up. Two of my favorites are Hoobly and Ebay Classifieds. Or do a search for bird fairs or bird clubs. I can't help you about the eye color. Unless it's an ino, they all look black to me. The only time I've seen plum eyes has been on newly hatched chicks, and then it goes away after a while.

Wow, you are one busy lady! Great job!

That was meant to be DF spangle, he has such a mishs mash I put them in the wrong order He is a DF Spangle Violet Sky Opaline/ Cinnamon...is that right now? Hmm, well, if he is a DF spangle, how do you know what the rest of his mutations are?

You've only had him for a couple of months, so there is still time for him to develop iris rings and a blue cere. But here is my thoughts on what he might be: What other birds were there to choose from? If there were other spangles, but no recessive pieds or clearflight pieds, then I would lean towards DF spangle. But if there were no spangles, but there were a lot of recessive pieds and clearflight pieds, then I would lean towards DEC. The reason I say this is because, and I know it may be different in Florida, but up here in Indiana, there are NEVER any spangles at all in the pet stores. The only ones I have been able to find have been from private breeders. But our pet stores are FULL of recessive pieds, clearflight pieds, and (presumably) dark eyed clears. (I really don't think the pet stores could have DF spangles without ever having any SF spangles.) Of course, just watch, now that I've said that, I will start to see spangles in pet stores now! (Oh, I wish I had thought of saying this long ago, so I could have found some spangles. )

Hey Squeak, they sound pretty! Where are the pictures? If Phantom's father was not violet, he can't be a double factor violet. But yes, all hens you get from him will be both opaline and cinnamon. (But only about 50% spangles.) It sounds like it will be a very pretty clutch.

It's been a few days. Here are some photos of the ones that I think look the darkest. Chick 4 Chick 5 Chick 6 And I thought it would be inteersting to show the change in chick six's tail in just a few days: My reason for doing this pairing was because I wanted to get some boy chicks that would be split for cinnamon, opaline, and greywing. (And blue, in case Mystery wasn't already split for blue, and it looks like he isn't.) And I was hoping to get some hens that were cinnamon, which would have been guaranteed, if Mystery really was cinnamon, and if any chicks were girls. Well, if Mystery is not cinnamon, then I get NONE of what I wanted. I guess my only hope at this point is that the chicks actually do turn out to be ALL boys. (It could happen ) So now instead of tormenting myself over whether they are greywings or not, I am constantly examining their ceres to look for any signs of hens. Of course, I can't get very good photos, and they ALL come out looking like hens in the photos. But looking at them in real life, I can pretty much convince myself that they look like boys! It certainly is a waiting game, isn't it? But at least I know that time will tell, eventually. Watching the daily changes in the chicks is the fun part, anyway.

Hi, welcome!

If you have used spot-on ivermectin, there is no need to do a second dose. Once is enough. I think some people may treat their whole flock quarterly (?) if there is a chance of recurring mites coming from wild birds.

Twisted is right, hens cannot be split for any sex-linked gene. Here is a link to a topic about rainbow budgies. The first half is about rainbows, and the second half goes off in a tangent about recessive pieds, which has nothing to do with rainbows. Rainbow Budgie Topic

Oh, that is too hilarious!!!

Here is a picture of the whole clutch: And for comparison, here is a picture of two chicks from another clutch, which are about the same ages. These other two are obviously one normal and one greywing, so I guess if it's not so obvious in Mystery's clutch, then maybe they are all greywings after all. Two of Riley and Aveline's chicks :

I have my budgies on a blend of Finch seed mix and Canary seed mix. The Parakeet blend just had too much extra junk in it! But I would keep an eye on him, if he is losing weight too quickly. Especially if you are trying to convert him to pellets and he puts himself on a starvation diet. They are known to starve themselves, rather than eat food they don't like.

I don't think we have that limit here.

Ha Ha, very cute, Ralph!

Spangle is a dominant variety, so it is a littler easier to breed, because only one of your parent birds needs to be a spangle, and then you can get spangle babies. The cinnamon and opaline are sex-linked recessive varieties, so understanding how those genes work is a little trickier, but still fairly easy to reproduce. In budgies, males have two copies of the X chromosome, and females have one X and one Y. (This had me confused when I first learned about budgies, because it is opposite to the way humans and dogs and cats are.) The cinnamon (or the opaline, or any other sex-linked gene) is found on the X chromosome. A male budgie gets one X from his dad, and one X from his mom. The female budgie only gets one X, and it comes from her dad. With only one X in the female, if she gets the cinnamon gene, it will show. If no cinnamon shows, then she didn't get a cinnamon gene, she got the normal gene. Males with two Xs need to have both of them be cinnamon in order to show. If one is cinnamon and one is normal, then the bird will look normal, but it will be carrying (or split to) cinnamon. Because normal is dominant over cinnamon. So, in order to get cinnamon babies, this is what you need: To get a GIRL cinnamon baby, you can use any mother, but you have to use a dad who has cinnamon. If you can see the cinnamon in the dad, then ALL of his girl babies will also be cinnamon. If he is normal split to cinnamon, then he will give normal to about half of his girls, and cinnamon to the other half. To get a BOY cinnamon baby, BOTH parents have to have cinnamon. The mother has to be visibly cinnamon, and the father can be visual, or he can be split to it. Again, if he is only split to it, then only about half of the chicks will be visual cinnamon. I used cinnamon as my example, but it works the same way for opaline and any other sex-linked gene. One more thing, if you only have a female cinnamon, and you want to breed her with a male that has no cinnamon, meaning he's not even split to cinnamon, then NONE of your babies will be cinnamons. But since the mother gives her X to her sons, then all of the boy babies will be normal split to cinnamon, and then in the future, THEY could produce cinnamon chicks. I hope this answers what you wanted to know. If not, just keep asking, until we get it all straightened out for you.

That was a good idea. I think by looking at yours, I can tell that they are all greywings. Some look darker than others, but not so it would fool you into thinking it was a normal. I looked at the tails of mine, and I think they are grey. Just that some of them are a very dark grey. Here are the tail shots, in age order: They change so much every day at this stage, that I'm sure it won't be long until I can tell for sure.

Thanks, Kaz. Evening check is in about 15 minutes, so I will look at tails.