Finnie

Lol, just throwing together random terms you have learned so far will really only confuse yourself further! The yellow face mutation does tend to make the body color somewhere between blue and green, but we call it based on the dark factor it has, and use the blue based terms. So a yellow face with no dark factor we call a yellow face sky blue, even though the actual color will not look like sky blue, It will look like aqua, turquoise or seafoam. With one dark factor, we call it yellow face cobalt, even though it very often turns more to a dark green shade, or blotches of blue and green that don't quite mix all the way. With two dark factors, we say yellow face mauve, even though it tends to turn it to a muddy-green looking color. the slash mark "/" means "split to", so even though in regular writing, people put slash marks between words all the time, when we write about genetics, we should not put the slash mark in unless we actually mean to say "split to". So you may have meant to say "spangle comma clearwing" or "spangle and clearwing" or "spangle or clearwing" etc, but in genetics what you wrote is spangle split to clearwing. There is also a difference between the terms "split to" and "masking". I will try to explain, and I hope it helps with your learning, and doesn't make it worse. ) When we are talking about a recessive gene, then a bird needs to carry two copies of the gene in order for it to be visible. So using recessive pied as an example, if the bird has two copies of the recessive pied gene, then we can say that it is "visual recessive pied". We can also say that it is "homozygous" for recessive pied. (Homozygous means that both genes in the pair are the same.) But if a bird only has one copy of the recessive pied gene, and the other chromosome has a copy of the normal gene, then the bird will look normal. Because the normal is dominant to the recessive pied. (That is Heterozygous, which means both genes in the pair are different.) We then say that the bird is "normal split to recessive pied" (normal/recessive pied) "Masking", on the other hand, refers to a bird that does have two copies of the recessive gene, so it is homozygous, but it has other mutations which interfere with our being able to see the recessive mutation visibly. So we can't really call that bird a "visual recessive pied" because we can't actually see it. So we say that the other mutation is "masking" the recessive pied. So "split to" means that the bird only has one copy of the recessive gene, making us unable to see the mutation. And "masking" means that the bird has two copies, but we still cant see the mutation because something else is hiding (or masking) it. Albino masks just about every other mutation, so that is where you will see this referred to the most. But there are other mutations that mask things as well. You will find that people who don't understand the terms will use "split to" and "masking" interchangeably, and thus confuse new people who are trying to learn. To insert another example here, when you have an albino bird that came from parents with the recessive pied mutation, like your clutch here, you don't know if the albino chick has one or two copies of the recessive pied gene. You do know that she has at least one copy that she got from her dad, so she is at least split to recessive pied. But the albino hides whether or not she would have normal markings or pied markings. So we can't tell whether she is masking recessive pied. She might be masking normal/recessive pied. Sorry that it takes so long to explain. I didn't even get a chance to answer your other i.d. questions. Maybe next time. -Finnie Hi Budgielov3r, I hope you don't take what I'm writing as criticism, but rather as me trying to help the both of you learn. This is correct, but I would venture to say that Goldenface has a deeper yellow in the mask, along the lines of a regular green budgie. This one appears to have a lighter, creamier yellow face, so I would say yellow face mutant two. Also, all of the babies appear to be yf2 as well, and not yf1. When they are that young, their bodies look more blue, and the yellow will tint it more when they go through their first molt. This is a case where we should say the dad is split to greywing, not masking it. We can see visually that the dad is a black-wing budgie, because what markings he does have are black. And since he has produced greywing offspring, that tells us that he is indeed split to some type of greywing. (My guess is that it's the dilute gene.) As for the spangle, if the dad has it, we should be able to see it visually. If we could look closer at the bird in person, we should be able to tell whether those few black marks he has are regular ones or spangle ones. Case in point, the two recessive pied chicks in the middle of this photo: The chick on the left has obviously normal markings, not spangle ones. The chick on the right is harder to tell, but if you look at the one secondary flight feather closest to the albino chick, you can see that the main part of the feather is white, and it has a black lining. That chick is a spangle. Notice that it is harder to see any difference between the two birds' shoulder markings. It was necessary to see the flight feather in order to pin point the spangle. Look on the dad, and see whether he has anything like that. One thing I will say about masking, With the recessive pied birds, if they are so pied out that you can barely see any markings in order to tell what they look like, then I think you could technically say that counts as "masking", even though some of the marks are not hidden. No, they are not sex-linked. They are on regular chromosomes. The greywing mutations are recessive, the spangle mutation has what we call incomplete dominance. The mutation is dominant to normal. If there is one copy of the gene, it will make a partial change in the bird's markings, and having two copies of the gene will make a further, or complete, change in the markings. That's why we have single factor spangles and double factor spangles. This answers my question about his back markings. He is definitely not a spangle. They are all very cute and beautiful. I would love to ID them all for you, but I have gone WAY over my forum time allotment for today! (So so sorry for the hugely long post!) If I remember to, I will go over their mutations another time.

It's a good sign that you can get him to try the pellets. Maybe he will learn to like them more, as he gets more familiar with them. Good luck with the diet. All you can do is try. I have heard that Milk Thistle powder can help treat Fatty Liver Disease. I don't know if this would be in that category, or if the Milk Thistle even really works, but it's one idea.

Aw, I'm sorry to hear it. Did the vet say how long it would take until your home would be clear on all PBFD?

So sorry, I don't know how I missed those pics! He doesn't look all that splayed to me. I wonder if it is just a mild case, affecting his balance, or whether he has a separate issue in addition to splay legs. Well, I haven't been on the forum in a week, so I imagine that the chicks have figured out the perching and moving down to the feed bowl thing by now. What you have described is how a chick will beg from his mother for food, and she is probably trying to wean him, so she is saying "No I won't feed you.". Don't worry, the mom and dad will re-bond with each other whenever you want them to. Budgies are pretty fickle. They will usually accept any mate you choose for them. There are exceptions to every rule of course, but I haven't had any problems pairing up budgies any way I want, and they go along with it.

I agree, I don't think you would be contaminating him with worms just from your hands. It would be more likely if he had access to be able to pick food off the ground where wild birds and/or chickens had been, It may very likely be the change in seed mix. It's definitely smart to change brands if you find that you are throwing away a lot of uneaten food. If you end up throwing away half the bag (the contents he wont' touch), then you are basically doubling your cost. It sounds like your'e pretty vigilant, too, about what he eats and what he leaves behind. But maybe there is a chance that with the new food, he is actually leaving more behind, and therefore going through it twice as fast. Or, maybe the types of seeds he likes out of the new mix provide less nutrients, so he has to eat more of them to equal the same energy. I have had other people who liked to mix their own bird seed. They bought specific seeds on line, or at feed stores and health food stores (if they could find the kind of seed they wanted there), If you were able to figure out about 3-5 kinds of seeds that you know he will eat, and just feed those, you might find that there is less waste. If so, then the cost of ordering special seeds just might even out compared to the wastage of throwing away unused "extra" ingredients. At least that might be a do-able option for one bird. I'm sure that would be way too expensive for me to try to feed a whole flock that way.

I completely agree with this answer. At this age, I find that they often look one way, and then start to change to looking the other way. So these guesses look right to me for now. I don't think this one looks like a spangle. I would have to see more of its wing markings from the back. Also, the dad looks like he may be a spangle, but it's hard to see with the recessive pied removing a lot of the markings. If he is spangle, then you could get DF spangle chicks, that would be all white. Your top "albino" chick seems to have darker eyes than your other red-eyed chick. Is that just the photo? Does the top chick have true red eyes? It's a very nice clutch. And the dad must be split to dilute. I think that chick is pale enough to qualify as dilute, and not just regular greywing, but that will depend on if the color darkens up as the feathers come in more, or during its first molt.

So you are saying that these two chicks also have to tiny newly hatched pinkies in with them? I can't advise what would be safe in a colony breeding situation, as I have no experience with that. But I have fostered chicks the ages of the two in this photo to other hens breeding in single cages, and they have been fine. But you only want to move them into nests that have chicks with similar amount of feathering. So I would say you might get away with moving the feathered chick, but not the one that still doesn't have down. The foster mother looks like her chicks are getting close to fledging, so I think it may be too late anyway. I do think that you can leave the chicks alone where they are. I have had large gaps in age between chicks, and I don't think the younger ones get trampled. Of course, hand rearing is a good option if you enjoy doing that. The chick with pin feathers looks old enough for that. The one that is still mostly naked looks too young to take away, but that one wouldn't trample a baby anyway. Good luck however you do it. Actually, I see that the date is three days ago. How are they all now?

It does seem strange that he would eat more and not gain weight. Do you measure his food? How can you tell if he is eating more, or just eating less food, but more often? I don't think there is any way for him to catch worms without being exposed to worms from other birds. I don't think it could come from contaminated food, but maybe I am wrong. You did say you have put him outside in the past, but this started during the winter. Unless you think he may have gotten exposed a long time ago, and then the worms gradually grew until they finally got noticeable? But if his poops look normal, then I would not lean towards worms. (It wouldn't hurt to give him a preventative dose of ivermectin. Tractor Supply carries it fairly cheap, although buying a whole 250mL bottle for just one use, I don't know about that.) Have you changed seed brands recently?

It's good that the nurse said to increase the seed. I too think that gradual weight loss is better. I almost think that cutting out the seed sticks and millet would be enough of a change. Those things are like bird "junk food". I don't like how it seems that vets always want to push pellets on them. But at least this approach is using both seeds and pellets, and not just cutting out all seeds. Also, it doesn't surprise me that he can't eat for the whole 30 minutes. His crop can only hold so much, so it sounds like he stuffs himself as quickly as he can, then stops eating. Perhaps you might want to let him have three 30 minute periods of eating seeds per day instead of two. Or give him a measured amount and let him nibble on it throughout the day. I don't really like the idea of forcing a budgie to eat certain foods (pellets) by starving them from the foods they are used to. I don't know that binging twice a day and then going hungry the rest of the day is healthy. If you want to try to "force" him to try pellets, maybe you could remove all food at bedtime, and then in the morning, put in just pellets for a while, to see if he will try them out of hunger, and then after a while, give him the seeds and veggies back so that he isn't forced to go too long without eating. Just like with introducing any new food, some budgies will not try it until they have gone weeks with it in their cage and gotten more familiar with it. So it may take a long time before he is willing to even taste the pellets. Budgies usually eat about 1-2 Tablespoons of seed per day. You could try getting a measurement of how much he would eat freely, and then ration his seed so that he has enough to keep up a good weight, and not plummet too fast. Can you get a scale and weigh him at home? It seems like weekly weighing is not often enough, if he loses too rapidly. These are just some ideas. I wouldn't necessarily advise going against your vet's advice, but if he is losing more extremely than the vet intended, and the vet isn't going to be around for three weeks.....

Well shucks that the vet found abnormal feather shafts! He looks very nice otherwise. Maybe he will grow all his feathers back nicely, eventually. Lol, all my birds get called "pretty bird"! Our four year old dog has a real name, but she is always called "Puppy". That is going to present a problem some day when we get a new puppy.

That is a pretty chick. What is its body color?

I meant that once they reach four weeks old, if you have a problem, then you need to take the chicks out of the box. Or put food into the box. Several of us here on the forum put seed and millet inside the box from the age of two weeks onwards, so that the chicks can practice eating. When they fledge, they can already eat on their own, and don't rely so much on the parents any more. You can put one chick with the dad if you want to. I don't see how that would be a problem. Yes, they can breed again whenever they go into condition again. The advice to separate them until you are sure the mother isn't going to lay more eggs is for if you DON'T want them to do a second round right now. If you DO want them to do a second round, then put the chicks in one cage and the parents in the other, and give them their nest back. The nest is only a problem if it makes the parents attack the chicks. If you remove the chicks, then you don't have to remove the box. Good luck, however you want to do it. (And, I feel like a broken record asking for photos of that splay leg chick. I want to see how your makeup sponge treatment has worked out. Part of me thinks the splay might not be so bad as you are worried. The other part of me is imagining a horribly deformed chick!) Maz is right, search on the forum. There are lots of articles and threads you can learn more from. Also do a Google image search of splay leg chicks, and you will be able to compare how bad yours is to what other people have posted.

I tried googling that to find product info, but it didn't come up.

From this side he looks beautiful! I think it may have been the clip job on the other side that looked a little rough. I don't understand why people clip just one side. I think in the past it was common, so people still do it. But it makes the bird lopsided, and able to fly, but not fly well. And unable to steer themselves. I wouldn't be surprised if that (clumsiness) was what is making him break off the new feathers that are trying to come in. In the past the experts on here would always tell new people who came home with a budgie clipped on one side to have the other side done as well, to even him out. But it sounds like this little guy is actually starting his molt, so now he could just grow in his new feathers on his clipped side and be fine, if the new feathers will grow in properly. The vet will give you his opinion on all this. Good luck! By the way, I once had a customer who temporarily called her chick "Miss Birdy" while she was trying to figure out a good name for it. Guess what the bird's permanent name became?

So if you get her a male, the eggs will be fertile, but you can still just throw them away. If she is incubating them (sometimes they do that on the floor of the cage) and you don't want chicks, then you can addle the eggs by shaking them, or I guess boiling, but that's a new one for me. Or some people buy fake eggs to give the hen to trick her into stopping laying. Whether you get her a male or not is up to you. Having one or two budgies is a personal choice.

I'm sorry for your loss. It sounds like he was quite a character.

Hi Aquafroste, You have two separate threads going about how to manage these chicks and parents, and it can get a little confusing for people who are trying to help you, to have to go back and forth between them in order to get the whole story. So, as we seem to be done talking about cleaning nest boxes, I'm going to lock this topic, and we can continue the conversation in the thread titled Puffed Budgie. I hope nobody minds. Cheers, Finnie P.S. Here is the link to that other topic: http://forums.budgie...topic=33062&hl=

Lol, not trying to give you flack, but I will say that you are lucky if you've never had a problem. I have. And once you witness the mother bleeding terribly from trying to keep the attacking father away from the chicks, and then when you remove the badly injured mother to a hospital cage, turn around, and see the father viciously attacking the chicks in the nest, you will realize that IF the parents are starting to fight, it is nothing to fool around with. Or ask other forum members who have had the mother turn on newly fledged chicks and outright kill them. And then you will realize that even though things usually go well, it is important to watch out for when they go bad. Aquafroste, one thing that should probably have been mentioned- when you take the father away, you should put him in a far away room where the parents can't hear each other. They will understandably be upset at being separated, and will frantically call to each other. Sometimes I can't do that though, and it's not the end of the world. Even if the mother is not feeding them or being much of a good example, they are old enough that they should learn to eat by themselves anyway.

In case this doesn't make sense to anyone but myself, I had asked Maz in a PM about her other birds. I saw their photos on her Photobucket page. She has some very pretty birds.

Yes, but there might be other kinds that drop behind the neck. What is your drop-on called?

Hmm, did you mean to attach a photo?

Hi Corey, welcome to the forum! I love the genetics side of budgies, too. It's a lot of fun.

You'll have to re post that photo. When you reorganize things in Photobucket, it breaks any links you may have posted.

I think you can safely put a drop of Ivermectin on her back. That kills a variety of worms. I don't know how other dewormers work though, whether or not they should be combined with antibiotics or held off till after.

He is very pretty. Is this the one you were worried about the French molt or mites? I see that his wings looked clipped. Or is that from feathers breaking? What is the condition of the rest of the feathers on his back? It's hard to tell from that angle if they are roughed up or not. He's a very sweet baby.