Finnie

You have an uneven number of birds. There is a spare male, and until you get him a hen of his own, or possibly even another male to bond with, the odd man out will always be trying to cut in on another pair. They don't bond permanently, so bringing in new birds means a shifting around of pair bonds, with them all vying for their position in the new flock, and competing for the best mates. It would sort itself out more amicably if there was an even number of birds. At the first sign of fighting, one of the fighters should be separated out until the cause of the fighting can be resolved. Waiting to "see what happens" will lead to bloodshed, vet bills, and possibly even death. I would say to take out either the aggressor, or else if that one seems to be bonded with a female, take out the "loser", so the aggressor no longer feels he has to defend his position. Good luck! Let us know how it works out.

I'm guessing you are wanting to know the varieties of these birds? A very pretty group!

It is fine for a pair to raise two clutches in a row. Especially if the first clutch was only two chicks. It's not the laying eggs that stresses them, it's the raising and feeding of babies. But if you do not want more baby budgies, then definitely do not give her the box back. Taking the box away and allowing the hen to lay the next egg or two off the perch is how we get them to realize that breeding time is over. So no, it will not harm her to have no box for the egg. Usually what happens is that any eggs in the "production line" just get resorbed into the body. Ones that have gotten far enough along to have a shell on them will get laid, but it is usually just one or two, and then the hen stops forming any more eggs.

I agree. Male.

I also wonder if there may have been some other reason for the chick's deaths. A dead chick will naturally become flattened, so it is easy to assume they were squashed to death, when most likely they died first, and then got squashed. My chicks are always piled on top of each other, and the youngest always seem to crawl under the older. Even if I move a hatchling to the top of the pile, it worms its way back down. It is my belief that this is natural for budgies, and they are designed to withstand being squashed my their parents and siblings.

I think the problems with breeding red eye to red eye and continually breeding recessive mutations together are a problem in the species where those mutations have not been around long enough to establish a good solid gene pool of the "new" mutations. (An example would be the blue back Gouldian.) That isn't really a problem with the budgerigar, because most of their mutations have been around so long, that they are well established. So I would say go ahead and breed for whatever mutations suits your fancy. Keep an eye toward using good healthy specimens, and the colors they carry should be immaterial.

Hi, I see that nobody has answered in this thread. Those all sound like nice pairings. Did you have any specific color goals in mind? And welcome to the forum!

Oh good, glad you found it, GB, since it took me a month to come back on the forum, and I was no help!

I too have noticed that when you search a person's content, the forum doesn't go back past August of 2013. It's like it vanished from our profiles. But the content is still there. You just have to find it by going to each section of the forum. And that is a real pain. Maybe I can help you find something specific, and send you a link to that. okay, try this, I did a general search of the forum for Genericblue, and a lot of threads came up, even from years and years ago. I tried to post a link to my search results, but apparently you can't link to those.

Hi Kaj, very nice clutch there! You have done quite well with your sex-linked genetics. I will go back through and post my comments to various parts in blue.

Left to right: 1. Greywing spangle yellowface mutant two cobalt male. Probably got more yellow in the wings and body when it molted. Also probably a dilute. 2. Spangle cobalt male 3. Normal cobalt male 4. The ring-in is a male, that's about all I can see, lol. Greywing (not dilute) yellowface mutant two sky blue hen Spangle yellow face mutant two cobalt male Greywing (maybe dilute?) yellow face mutant two cobalt hen. This one looks more mutant one, so it would depend on how much yellow suffuses after the first molt. (Except that I establish below that the mother is yf2/blue, so she cannot throw any other kind of yellow face mutation.) Dilute spangle yellow face mutant two sky blue, can't tell whether male or female. Is this the same spangle as the one on the left above? Because if it is, then I'm not sure whether it's sky blue or cobalt. Opaline cobalt or violet hen, hard to tell by the photo. Left to right: 1. Dilute cobalt male. If it's the same yf2 one, then the yellow is not showing up in this photo. I also can't tell if it's the spangle one or the normal marked one. 2. Recessive pied cobalt hen. 3. Recessive pied cobalt, can't see the cere. I also got to thinking, that maybe that's not a spangle marking on that flight feather. Maybe it is a solid marked feather, that is hidden behind a white one, so that the white one is lying over the black one, making it look like a spangle outline. You would have to look at all the feathers on that particular wing in person to know. 4. Albino hen. The original green bush budgie is a green series bird. The original is a light green, but there have been known to be dark greens in the wild as welll The term yellow faced sky blue refers to a bird with no dark factors that has lost its ability to produce the proper amount of yellow pigment. So it has less yellow on it than a green bird. A sky blue bird is one with no dark factors that has lost its ability to produce any yellow at all. Then he is not a spangle. They get it from their mother. She is a spangle, which you can see. It is not hidden. Plus, the chicks only need to get it from one parent. Since the dad is not spangle, that answers the question about whether the white chick could be a Double Factor spangle. (It cannot) Besides, if it were possible, then chances are you would have gotten more than one of them out of so many chicks born. No, if for some reason you couldn't see it due to lack of visible markings on him, then you would say he was masking it, not split to it. You can never say "split to" in reference to a dominant mutation. Exactly. Every double factor spangle will be all white, or all yellow. Sometimes the hidden body color will show up as a light suffusion. And keep in mind that the yellow face birds will be all yellow, but it will be lighter than the yellow of a regular green series bird. Yes. Only if you pair him with a mate that can contribute a recessive pied gene. Yes, then the ino chicks could be masking it, and you won't know whether they have one or two copies. (Unless you pair him with a visual recessive pied mate- then you would get all 100% visual recessive pied offspring, and you would know for sure that any ino chicks were definitely masking it. Exactly. And test mating would be the only way to find out which ones were. They will all be the same mutation of yellowface. Since the mother has shown that she can produce both yf2 and blue babies, then you know that she is split to blue. (Yf2/blue) If she were throwing 100% yf2 babies, then you could suspect that she was homozygous for it. And if she were heterozygous with yf2 and yf1 (yf2/yf1), then you would get no blue babies. Just yf2s and yf1s. Goldenface is semi-dominant to the other yfs, so you would see it on the mother. But since you know that she is split to blue, you also know that she can only carry one other copy of the gene for that location, and it is the yf2 gene.

Yes. You want 1/2" (12mm) squares or smaller. Even smaller if you want to keep mice out.

Yes, all that I wrote about getting along is without breeding boxes. When you add boxes, you open a whole other can of worms. A lot of people colony breed, but it takes some special precautions. There are some pinned threads about it in the breeding area of the forum.

I'll just close this one, and we can all continue the dialogue in the other one.

I'd say dominant pied (probably double factor) yellow face mutant two cobalt. The markings on his head almost look grey, so maybe he is a greywing. There is also a possibility that he could be a recessive pied, dominant pied combination, but with so few markings, it would be pretty impossible to pinpoint his exact type of pied.

This sounds about right, if the slight blue is a whitish blue, and not a purplish blue. I also look for a lot of overall whiteness to indicate girls. The more solid-reddish the pink, the more likely to be a boy. I've never been too good at telling based on size and shape. Maybe I should have another look at that thread. Here is the thread: http://forums.budgiebreeders.asn.au/index.php?showtopic=22804&st=0

That sounds like a great arrangement!

You deserve to have your own topic, so I made one for you. This is a great introduction of yourself to the forum, so I've put it in the New to BBC section. Welcome to the forum! I think you are probably correct about Elmo. His dark yellow face does seem to suggest goldenface. And I've read that if any two of the yellowface mutations are combined (heterozygous), then that affects the amount of yellow that bleeds into the wings and body. We have quite an extensive thread about yellowface here on the forum that might be able to shed some light on it. But I have to confess, that with all the different effects that can be had by combining the different yellowface genes, I don't think I will ever be very good at distinguishing what they are if they are not just straight golden face or yellowface mutant one or two. Here is a link to the thread about the yf mutations: http://forums.budgiebreeders.asn.au/index.php?showtopic=27620 As to whether Elmo is dominant pied or clearflight pied, both kinds look very similar, so he could be either one. But the Dominant pied, which is sometimes called Australian Banded Pied, ought to have a more or less wide clear stripe going across the chest. So I am leaning towards Elmo being a Clearflight Pied. I think Elmo is a cobalt. On to Onni. Lol, no pun intended! He actually looks like he could be grey factored. It can be hard to tell between that and mauve, but if you look at his cheek patches, you should be able to tell whether they are violet or silvery grey. Grey factor will have grey cheek patches. Also, on a grey factor, the main tail feathers will be black, whereas on a mauve, they would be dark blue. Since his mother was violet, then the only way he could be a grey bird is if his father was grey. For Urmas, it can be hard to detect violet in photographs. I'm not seeing it, just cobalt. But that could be due to the photo. Julia looks like a clearwing yellow face mutant two sky blue. She may be cobalt, but this view of her looks like no dark factor to me. She has amazingly clear wings! I never see them like that around here. (I'm in the U.S.) I wish I could get mine to look like that. Then for the light green hen in the bottom photo, I think that one is also an opaline. The opaline might be making the grey markings fainter than they otherwise would be. But I can definitely see the grey. That's how the clearwings around here turn out. Not quite dark enough to call actual greywings, but not quite clear enough to be good clearwings. They always say that there are modifier genes that blur the lines between the different dilution mutations. I've been trying to breed mine to get clearer wings, but the modifier genes always seem to get passed on too. Your birds are very pretty. What kinds of chicks would you like to produce? If you don't know what things your boys are split to, you might have to get females with certain mutations, make split offspring, and then breed those in order to produce visuals. I guess it all depends on what you would like to make. I can't seem to get the link to work. But the thread can be found in the pinned section of the Mutations forum. It is called "The Great YF Symposium". http://forums.budgiebreeders.asn.au/index.php?showtopic=27620 okay, now the link is working.

The watery droppings might just be from the chicks being new to eating seeds. Have you seen them drink water on their own yet? Maybe they are drinking a lot, since it is new to them, and they might be playing with it. If the majority of the droppings are black, small and hard, then the occasional loose one is okay. Also, you should be feeding them lots of veggies at this age, because it starts them on good habits. When they eat veggies, it will loosen up their stool too. So don't worry about that when it happens. In your photos, they both look like boys. It's kind of hard to tell, though, because the photo of the older one just shows a tiny bit of his cere.

Hi, I didn't realize you had the same question going in two different threads. I will copy and paste my answer from your other one to here, since this is where it seems to fit better:

Hi, Welcome to the forum! Your local breeders ought to be a good source of advice, as well. They can probably advise you about ratios of genders. I've never owned an outdoor aviary, just large indoor cages. In my cages, I would not combine three males and one female. Perhaps it's different in a larger environment. But with only one female, all of the males will probably be harassing her to mate. And they will fight each other over her. I always think it is better to have equal numbers of males and females if the group is small, and if the group is large enough, then you can have extra males. If there are not enough males to go around, the hens will fight over them. But once each hen has chosen her mate, any leftover males will buddy up with each other, so you can get away with fewer hens. That is just my feelings about it. I do have to admit that I now keep my males and females separate from each other, and that has completely cut out any fighting over mates. When I pair them up in breeding cages, they are so happy to see someone of the opposite gender, that they start courting immediately, and I often see mounting within the first five minutes! But if you will be housing them all together, then I think it is best to keep numbers even. One nice thing about having a young hen is that you have plenty of time to study up on every aspect of breeding. Then when she is old enough to breed, you will be well prepared for all the different circumstances that can occur. This forum is a great resource. Happy reading!

It all sounds good to me. If his crop is emptying, then you really don't have to worry that he is eating too much. If you were stuffing him with formula so that the crop was ballooned up, and it didn't empty, then that could be a problem. But it sounds like he is past that stage. It sounds to me like he is weaning himself, and that is fine. I have found that if I don't start hand feeding a chick before it is three weeks old, then it doesn't really take to the formula, and will resist spoon and syringe feeding. It will learn to eat seed and veggies on its own rather than allow me to hand feed it. When my chicks keep themselves full between hand feedings, that is when I know that they are outgrowing the formula. They usually wean very fast after that point. (Of course, by then they are usually fully feathered and have learned to fly.) As far as his feathers not coming in properly, perhaps you are right about the chick being younger than the seller told you. I wonder if he was over-plucked by his parents in the nest. I have found that if they are plucked or not fed properly by the parents early on, that their development is delayed. But they usually catch up eventually, and then you can't tell any difference. After four days, how is he now? Do you have photos?

When pale body color shows on a mutation that is supposed to be clear of color, that is called suffusion. In show budgies, it is a fault, but in pet budgies, it can make a bird quite pretty. I don't see why you couldn't pair those two up. If you got them from the same place, did you make sure that they are not brother and sister? With both of them having pale purple color, one might wonder. A DEC (Dark Eyed Clear) is a combination of recessive pied and clearflight pied (also called Dutch dominant pied) All the chicks from this pair will be split to recessive pied. And unless the spangle mate is split to recessive pied you will not get any DEC chicks, or any recessive pieds. But the clearflight pied gene should get passed on to some of the offspring, and some of them should also be spangles. You could also get normal chicks and chicks that have both clearflight pied and spangle. If your goal is to make more Dark Eyed Clears, then you should see what other birds you have that are recessive pied, or split to it. They sound pretty. Do you have photos?

First time breeders can sometimes take a while to get started. One thing that might help is to pair up several pairs in separate breeding cages at the same time. Budgies will feel more comfortable breeding if they know that other birds around them are breeding. It's funny, but they really do copy each other in everything. The suggestion about light is a good one. Make sure that their days are longer than their nights.

How long have the new eggs been in the nest? Because you do have the option to throw away the new eggs and take the nest box away. If fertile eggs are fairly far along in development, then I hate to toss them, but if the newly fledged chicks are just one month old, then your hen has probably just started laying. If there are only two or three eggs so far, then they have not had much chance to develop yet, and you would pretty much just be throwing away yolk. Any time you breed a clutch, when the chicks start to fledge, you need to keep an eye on how the parents are going to behave towards the chicks, and be prepared to take away one or both of the parents. Depends on which parent is objecting to the chicks. I have had mothers who are happy to allow the older chicks in and out of the box while she is incubating the next clutch, and I have had it the other way where the mother will attack any older chicks in the cage. I have also had a mother protecting her chicks from the father who was doing the attacking. I'm sorry you had to experience the worst case scenario.