nubbly5

okay my first choice would be cock 4 with hen 1. You really need some feather above the cere on all these birds and although hen 1 looks to be a bit short in the mask, she seems to be the most substantial above the cere and has better direction feather than the other hens as well as, by your comments, good in size. Cinnamon in DF spangles helps to reduce body suffusion. Cock 6 is quite a nice example of a rec pied so try and find a nice normal hen to pair him to, to get some split rec pieds to breed back into. Cock 1 to Hen 4 will give you some hen TCB but the quality of both birds is not as good as I would pair with (no disrespect intended). If you want to breed TBC's, buy a really good solid opaline grey green hen and put him to that. Opaline helps to clear suffusion (like cinnamon does for the DF's) from the TCB producing a clearer body colour, but unless he is split for opaline, you will only get normal hens and split opaline cocks from this pairing. All hens will be TBC and all cocks will be split for TBC. The next generation will be very useful as a base line to breed TBC's from. Maybe cock 2 with hen 2 as another choice based purely on the next most appealling qualities of the birds. Just a bit of advice here - it looks like - just from the birds pictured mind you, that you really need to find some top end feather from a couple of nice outcrosses. Look for directional feather (feather going horizontally out over the top of the cere) and cocks with good blow of feather. If you already have birds of reasonable size, you need to start looking at adding feather quantity an quality to your birds. If you've already got it in some birds not pictured here then just ignore my ramblings!!!!

Hey Pearce, What are your aims for these birds. Show pairings or colours in particular? Sorry, just saw that you are after size....... I am currently shaped by my ISP so pics are taking a while to download. Will have a look and post when I can see them all..... sigh.

I think a YF violet spangle dom pied would be gorgeous, but how to breed on on order?????? Or YF violet clearwing would be very nice too.

Dark green recessive pied - maybe male...... just looks like it's chatting and blowing feather like a male but otherwise as above I would need a better picture of the cere. Skyblue dominant pied (of some description and at a guess I'd go with Elly on the clearflighted pied - dominant pied none the less).

The reason for not pairing to opaline is exactly as RIP says, if you intend to show them, then Opaline CW is not an acceptable combination so if recognised as such by a judge will be DQ'ed or stuck into an Non standard variety class if the club has one and the judge/show manager allows a class change. Ooops sorry, I lied!!!! They can be shown as opaline AOSV as the combination of opaline CW is acceptable BUT you would be penalised for lack of opaline markings and you would be competitng against generally much stronger birds. It's best to keep opaline and cinnamon out of your CW line if you can at all help it - IF you want to show them. If not pair them with absolutely anything you like!!!!!!

Hey Heathrow sounds very much the same pattern as here. I also treat regularly for lice and mites and still have a bit of FM at the end of this breeding season. I did not have mite present at the time of my huge first FM outbreak. From my 2006 birds I had substantial number of FM's and most of them I have culled but the few that recovered fully (regrew all flights and tails) I kept and have bred from probably all of them since then (only ended up with 10 or so birds from 2006 season). I have not noticed any more or less FM from them. No FM at all since 2006 and only when I brought birds home from a friends aviary that had a few runners that I got some again this year, yes it's at the end of the season but I have a feeling that if I had brought those birds in early in the season it would have happened then but I'll never realy know. Happened with nests from birds never affected by FM (2007 & early 2008 parents) as well as one nest that had a 2006 parent. The whole mite theory is an interesting one in respect to the fact that I bet he never looked at the feather when there was no FM present. I assume that mites would have been present then too but no-one seems to have a handle on what is present in a normal (healthy) situation, just jump to unproven conclusions that mites are present when there is FM so therefore they MUST cause it - sheesh..... that's the difference between science and heresay.

Oh nooo! You AND AV. You poor things. It's as easy as a wild bird pooping on your lawn and you inadvertantly picking up a bit of dirt on your shoes if it is psittacosis. Damn heartbreaking whatever the cause. I feel for you both and hope you get on top of it soon.

Had no signs of feather lice or red mite during my first horrible experience with FM. French Moult has been proven in quite a number of peer reviewed journals to be a virus read here: http://www.euronet.nl/users/hnl/french.htm BUT I would assume if there was a challenge on the birds immune system (maybe by an over burden of feather lice/mites whatever ????) then they would be less able to build a good immune response to a virus like FM.

No FM in New Zealand........ wow that would be great.

Sad news. So sorry to hear that AV.

Well SW, I just had a re-read through all the previous posts and I think the comments were well balanced are quite possibly justified! As Kaz stated, no names were mentioned. Surely if someone has had poor service and the problem they were trying to get fixed is not fixed, then they have the right to feel hard done by. Probably as a vet might feel hard done by if a particular plumbing contractor was paid a reasonable sum to fix a plumbing problem but didn't (or couldn't). A service we pay for is a service we pay for and surely we as consumers of that service have a right to be dissatisifed with it on occasion! Maybe, just maybe, whichever vets frequent this list, might get some tips on good customer service like returning a phone call to a customer.

Umm no not spread genetically (as in via the genes of parent birds to the offspring) expect for the fact that some types of birds are unaffected so I suppose "genetically" they are not suceptabile to the virus. PBFD is cuased by a member of the Circovirus' it has actually been identified as the causative agent. This from AvianBiotech.com "Psittacine Beak and Feather Disease - The virus causing this disease is a member of the Circoviridae. Transmission of the virus from one individual to another is primarily through direct contact, inhalation or ingestion of aerosols, crop-feeding, infected fecal material, and feather dust. The virus can also be transmitted via contaminated surfaces such as bird carriers, feeding formula, utensils, food dishes, clothing, and nesting materials. The viral particles, if not destroyed can remain viable in the environment for months, long after the infected bird is gone."

Well both FM and PBFD have been identified as being caused by virus' (Polyoma & Circovirus respecively) but I guess the big question is which birds remain as carriers - sheeding virus as they go or do birds recover and build an immune response to the virus as humans do to the common cold and flu virus'?

Hi All I kinda noticed that there was no pinned information on French Moult and, although I have not done a topic search so might be asking the same question as someone else has before, I was just wondering what other people do about french moult when it rears it's ugly head. When we moved into our new aviary I was so excited about the potential to breed and keep more birds only to be hit HARD by french moult. I believe that I had brought it in with some new birds I had purchased from east and as I had not ever seen it here before then assume my birds were in a lower immunity status as they had not been exposed for at least as long as I had had them. Well it was a complete disaster and 2006, when I would normally breed around 150 chicks saw a total of about 30 come out before I stopped them and emptied out. Not all of these recovered and I culled about 2/3 of them. Over the last few years since then all has been pretty quiet on the FM front until I bought some more birds at auction, they went home with someone else and when I picked them up I noticed they had a number of runners - S*%T. Now at the very end of my season I am getting FM back in again. Luckily I will be shut down from now until September so will give them all a chance to stop shedding virus. Do a big disinfecting clean up (which I do at the end and start of a breeding season anyway) and have big fingers crossed that all is sweet again for a few years. What are other breeders experiences with this very annoying and sometimes devestating virus?

Yep with you on that. I found that even the AIL was not stopping the blighters as I could knock them back for a while but then the new hatchees would be back on the birds soon enough - horrible things. I therefore ended up resorting to surface spray. That works a treat as it has a 3 month residual so kills the little so and so's as they hatch - heeheeheehee. I was a bit concerned at first as I believed that birds can be a bit sensitive to some synthetic pyrethroids but they are unfazed luckily.

Sorry to hear that AV. Gotta say that for all the pleasures of breeding budgies there certainly are some heartaches involved too. Keep hanging in there.

Only if you just use the oral version of Ivermectin and then you are 100% correct as the lice only feed off feather particles and there is no bloody..... I meant blood...... supply to feathers as you said. HOWEVER if you use the spot on (Cattle Pour-On) this translocates around the bird quite readily (and through the skin too) and you will see pretty darn good lice & mite treatment via topical application (i.e.the lice coming in direct bodily contact with the Ivermectin). That's also why you see good scaly mite treatment - they also do not feed on blood. That's why using the Cattle Pour-On is so effective and the oral not as helpful except for worms. Ivermectin is registered as a lice and fly treatment for topical application on sheep, also lice, mite, worm treatment as the cattle pour-on. None of these lice (appart from a couple of cattle face lice) suck blood either. Ooooh, it's scary when you automatically type swear words....... blood v bloody.......... not just a potty mouth that I have, I've got potty fingers too.........

Ivermectin WILL treat lice, and mites and worms. As red mite breed off the bird you really need to treat the perches, boxes etc. Believe it or not I use surface spray (mortein outdoors or similar) on my breeding boxes, cabinets and perches as well as using spot on ivermectin treatment for the birds themselves. I slowly worked from Avian Insect Liquidator to normal fly spray to surface spray as I had a really bad infestation which kept coming back. For the last 2 years I've used outdoor surface spray before putting birds down to breed (sometimes only allowing drying time before putting them in) with absolutley NO issue..... I was a bit scared at first and only tried it on a couple of boxes to start with. I'm close to sure that I've erradicated the tiny little buggers from my aviary. But I would only use Avian Insect Liquidator in the box with babies currently in it. Not on the eggs themselves either.

AV - how are your birds going now?

Yep, green, blue - different brands, different colours. Some have nail spots (we had to nail the ones in our roof down coz the huge mutant rats just carried them away!!!!!) some don't. I don't worry about nailing them just throw the old ones away when they get too small but I don't find that the mice take the anywhere really, just move them a little - they chew on the block. Initially, depending on mice numbers you might need to replace them regularly (as they get eaten down) but once you knock them back a bit, you'll find the blocks last a long time - unless you have super breeding mice colonies nearby of course.

I use the wax blocks as the mice don't move those too far and can't get them throught the wire.

I agree that Cosmo is a goldenface...... sorry to confuse the issue I get the goldenface v's YF as the goldenface is a much stronger yellow and strong suffusion makes the bird look almost green but i've always been a bit stuffed with the mutant 1, mutant 2 thing with the YF's - there is so much conflicting information when you do research on yellowfaces........ sigh.

The only real limiting factor is if the mutation occurs on the same allele - then only 2 genes can be present. Example of this is the greywing, clearwing, dilute progression a bird cannot be greywing, clearwing and dilute it can only have 2 of the three mutations that occur at the same allele.

Fingers crossed for a good breeding season! When are you putting the birds down to breed or are they alreasy down?

I wrote this article in 2005 based on what I have learned over the years in the Agriculture Industry about coccidiosis. Thought people here could get something useful out of this. COCCIDIOSIS by Gina HOUSE There has been much discussion about coccidiosis and it's effects on our birds, much of it based on misunderstanding. I hope, in this article, to share with you my knowledge of coccidiosis and what it can mean to your birds. My knowledge of this troublesome little fellow comes from over 15 years experience in the broiler chicken and other agricultural industries. In the broiler chicken industry, cocci can often be the cause of death in young birds but it can also lead to reduced growth rates which is a costly thing when you are trying to grow chickens fast to reach market weights quickly. Poultry producers have a very good understanding of cocci, what it is, what it does and how to go about controlling it. Coccidia themselves are microscopic protozoa that infect the intestines of many animals. There are many different types of coccidia all of which affect different animals. Mammals, birds, reptiles and amphibians are all affected by coccidia. They are said to be generally 'host specific', which means that a type of cocci will usually affect only one type of animal and have no effect if ingested by different animals or birds. Also cocci is only considered a problem to animals that are reared in fairly intensive production systems. Poultry, calves, lambs, feedlot cattle and budgies in aviaries get cocci much more often than their wild counterparts ever do, as they are exposed to the coccidiosis bug much more frequently and in higher numbers due to the confines of their environment. In Australia 2 types of cocci have been identified that affect budgerigars - Eimera dunsingi and Isospora melopsittaci – no need to remember the names but you might be interested if you wanted to do a web search to find out more about these little suckers. Poultry in Australia are affected by about 9 different types of cocci although 3 are of major concern. Each of them affects the birds in different ways, 2 of them cause growth rate depression due to middle gut damage and can lead to enteritis (inflammation of the gut) and the 3rd causes large numbers of deaths due to severe damage to the lower part of the gut called the cecae. Birds affected by this type of cocci generally die quickly from blood loss. All three are treated seriously as they can cause significant financial losses to poultry growers. Young birds from 21 to 28 days old are most affected and more often when they are under stress due to a feed outage, water line break down or extreme weather patterns. These are times when cocci might rear its head and become a problem. When poultry growers keep older birds for reproduction purposes, they rarely require treatment for cocci as the birds, after initial exposure to cocci, can build a partial immunity or resistance to the protozoa. The bug itself is ingested from the environment; it's tough outer shell is ground down in the gizzard and little worm like creatures invade cells in the gut wall of the bird. There they multiply, burst out of the cells, causing damage to the gut wall, and bury into more cells of the gut to multiply again. After a few complex reproduction stages they produce eggs (oocyts), which are shed back into the environment in the birds faeces, thus, starting the whole cycle over. The reproduction cycle is fairly fast and extremely effective, producing many, many new oocysts from a single ingested one. Due to the tough outer shell of the oocyst, it can survive for long periods in the environment and is extremely hard to destroy. Poultry houses in WA undergo cleanouts after every batch, every eight weeks or so. All the bedding is removed and the shed and equipment is pressure cleaned and sterilized. However, the next batch of chickens inevitably gets exposed to cocci again, a testament to how sturdy the oocysts are and how hard they are to destroy. Broiler poultry feed always has an anticoccidial (for prevention) of some sort added and if the birds show clinical signs of coccidiosis, they are treated with a short term, in-water product as well. A critical thing to know about these cocci oocysts (eggs) is that they have specific temperature and moisture requirements before they can become "active" (sporolate). If they are ingested without becoming active, they are non-invasive and cause no problems to the birds. It is only when the oocysts become active (sporolation has occurred) that they are then invasive to the gut of the bird. The development of coccidiosis in chickens and most likely in budgerigars as well depends on a number of things some of these being: The number of oocysts eaten. Generally, an increase in the number of oocysts eaten is accompanied by an increase in the severity of the disease. Strain of coccidia. Different strains of a species may vary in pathogenicity. Environmental factors affecting the survival of the oocysts. Site of development within the host. Coccidia that develop superficially are less pathogenic than those that develop deeper. Age of the bird. Young birds are generally more susceptible than older ones. Nutritional status of the host. Poorly fed birds are more susceptible. So, what the *** does all that mean for budgie breeders? Firstly, cocci needs moisture and temperatures of 20 degrees plus, for the oocysts (eggs) to sporolate so we will often see cocci at the change of the season when temperatures warm up after winter or when we get the first rains after summer. Remember moisture plus temperatures of 20 degrees+ means active cocci. Secondly, stress can be a factor in when and why birds get cocci. Normally older birds can show quite strong immunity to cocci (poultry at least) but anything that stresses your birds will impact on the birds ability to produce a good immune response in the face of a higher cocci challenge. If they get cold, disturbed at night, are exposed to rapid or extreme temperature changes, have other diseases impacting on their health – anything that stresses your birds can mean that they might be more susceptible to cocci at a particular time. That might also mean that, in the case of exhibition budgerigars, suppressed immune systems could be having a bearing on the susceptibility that our birds show to cocci. Temperature changes over autumn and spring, combined with the fact that cocci is often more active during this time due to the right temperature and moisture requirements being met, means that you will often see large outbreaks of coccidiosis in your birds during these seasons. Remember that in the case of coccidiosis, the fact that your birds may have a level of immunity does not mean that they will not get coccidiosis again. With cocci it is all about the numbers of bugs that your birds can handle. If a bird is overwhelmed by activated (sporolated) oocysts and it's immune system is under pressure for any reason, it is likely to become sick with coccidiosis. Thirdly, it is extremely difficult to eradicate cocci and it would seem pointless trying to implement a program to try and do this. The only reasonable way to deal with cocci is to ensure that the challenge posed to your birds is kept at a minimum. This means keeping your flights as clean and dry as possible but remembering that some exposure to cocci is essential if your birds are going to build any immunity to it. Those with microscopes, do not panic if you see some oocysts in the manure of otherwise healthy active budgerigars, all this means is that your birds are getting the opportunity to build an immunity to cocci. If sick birds show numbers of oocysts, then do something. If you do use a microscope to diagnose problems you should also do random pooh checks on healthy birds so that you get an idea of what is actually normal for your stud. In poultry production, we randomly and regularly check HEALTHY birds to see if cocci is present. We always score the amount of cocci we see and are always relieved to find a low level, which means that the birds were being allowed to build an immune response to the disease without actually being overwhelmed by the cocci bug. The key here I guess is to actually know WHAT IS NORMAL for your birds. Also, try and stay on top of other things that might cause stress to your birds. Draughts, mice, overcrowding, other types of treatable disease - any of the things that you can positively affect, that lowers stress on your birds, will also have a positive effect in the case of controlling cocci. Effective preventative programs during the cocci season – autumn and spring – can help control cocci in your budgerigars at the times when large numbers of activated oocysts might overwhelm your birds. Careful consideration of young birds might also be appropriate, as they may not have been exposed to cocci to any great degree whilst in the nest box. Recent conversations I have had with a couple of budgerigar breeders in WA indicate that one of the strains of cocci that affect our birds can do some serious gut damage leading to high death rates and birds which go downhill very quickly. Any sign of blood in the droppings would sound huge alarm bells that cocci might be an issue and serious gut damage is occurring. When poultry growers notice this, they do not wait for birds to start dying, they treat straight away. Blood in the droppings often looks brown but may sometimes be the red of fresh blood if the damage is severe or is occurring low down in the gut. There are several products that you can use for the prevention and treatment of coccidiosis in your birds. Make sure they are registered for the use in cage birds or recommended by your bird vet. Preparations that are used to prevent cocci in chickens should not be considered for budgie treatment unless they are also specifically registered to be used in budgerigars or if your vet recommends their use. Many of the cocci preventatives used in chickens will kill horses, dogs and turkeys as well as producing hatchability problems in breeder poultry. Not something I would like to experiment with on my birds. Remember, many off-the-shelf chick crumbles come with anticoccidials already added which might cause some serious problems in your birds. I would only consider using these types of products if you know for sure that poultry anticoccidials are not added. All in all cocci is something all intensive livestock producers have to deal with, what we as budgerigar breeders need to do is be aware of what it is, how it behaves and what we can do to help prevent it becoming a problem in our birds. Lastly, I would like to point out that I am not a vet and would make no recommendations on actual programs and products that you should use with your birds. For specific recommendations on treatments other than those specifically registered for use in Budgerigars, I recommend that you consult your local bird vet.